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Oct 3rd, 2008
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Posse Commitatus

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The Posse Comitatus act is under threat (if it is not already completely negated) by this administration. Consider that the military has been used as police (US Marines shot and killed a 14 year old with a .22 in Arizona(?) while on 'border' patrol in a drug interdiction - and they were cleared). I have no problems with National Guard or even reservists as they are under the control of their state governors.

To be honest, I am not comfortable with the norther Idaho survivalists, or the wacko militias but I will join them if I have to. I grew up in Montana (I keep repeating that like it means something) so I still have the guns I was born with. I am accumulating food and supplies and have route back home mapped out.

Unfortunately, I am 60 years and could not hike the 700 miles but I will die a free man.
Last edited by GrimJack; Oct 3rd, 2008 at 2:22 pm. Reason: Okay, this is just a rant - I was not abducted by black helicopters last night or anything.
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Re: Posse Commitatus

we are free only because we shot enough people they couldn't control us...just ask the Georgians what it takes to be free...
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Re: Posse Commitatus

you are making a mountain out of a molehill. The President is allowed to use military force when requested by state governors or when the state is unable or unwilling to to protect civil rights and property. I believe LBJ used that authority in the 1960s to assist school desegregation.
Last edited by Ancient Dragon; Oct 4th, 2008 at 10:58 am.
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Re: Posse Commitatus

you are making a mountain out of a molehill. The President is allowed to use military force when requested by state governors or when the state is unable or unwilling to to protect civil rights and property. I believe LBJ used that authority in the 1960s to assist school desegregation.
Agreed - with the caveat that this "molehill" is the tip of the 2nd Amendment glacier that insures the people's choice.
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Re: Posse Commitatus

Freedom at any price!!
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meksikatsi is offline Offline
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Re: Posse Commitatus

That's not talking about freedom -- its referring to stopping terrorists, unless of course you think terrorists should be free to use WMD anytime and anyplace they wish.
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Re: Posse Commitatus

Click to Expand / Collapse  Quote originally posted by zeroth ...
we are free only because we shot enough people they couldn't control us...just ask the Georgians what it takes to be free...
I have no idea what you are saying here, if you want to communicate, somtimes paragraphs and logical progression of ideas really help.
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Re: Posse Commitatus

you are making a mountain out of a molehill. The President is allowed to use military force when requested by state governors or when the state is unable or unwilling to to protect civil rights and property. I believe LBJ used that authority in the 1960s to assist school desegregation.
Posse Comitatus refers specifically to using the military to enforce laws
Quote ...
Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
This law was passed in response to the use of Federal troops in the Southern states following the Civil War.

LBJ use of Federal troops was under the Insurrection Act which is
Quote ...
...[T]he set of laws that govern the President of the United States of America's ability to deploy troops within the United States to put down lawlessness, insurrection and rebellion. The laws are chiefly contained in 10 U.S.C. § 331 - 10 U.S.C. § 335. The general aim is to limit Presidential power as much as possible, relying on state and local governments for initial response in the event of insurrection. Coupled with the Posse Comitatus Act, Presidential powers for law enforcement are limited and delayed.
- the important exception in the Posse Comitatus Act is this line
Quote ...
"Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both".
The old west idea of forming a posse and chasing down the bad guys was based on the common law posse comitatus "referred to the authority wielded by the county sheriff to conscript any able-bodied male eighteen or older to assist him in keeping the peace or to pursue and arrest a felon; compare hue and cry <was a process by which bystanders were summoned to assist in the apprehension of a criminal who had been witnessed in the act of committing a crime.>. It is the law enforcement equivalent of summoning the militia for military purposes."

The mountain I am talking about is that the armed forces are not trained in the concepts of law enforcement - this is not derogatory. The armed forces are trained to defend, attack, and contain; there is no real overlap nor should there be. If 2 police officers heard a bullet whiz by their heads, they would look for the source of and, if possible, talk to the person who fired at them, get them to disarm and take them into custody (ideally). If 2 Marines are fired on, they would track the person to his home and kill him. This is why we do not want the armed forces to perform the duties of law enforcement.

Does this make some sense?
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Re: Posse Commitatus

That's not talking about freedom -- its referring to stopping terrorists, unless of course you think terrorists should be free to use WMD anytime and anyplace they wish.
This is the canard that is used to support the mass arrest of demonstrators in St. Paul before they had even had a chance to protest - they broke into private homes forced them all face down on the floor cuffed them and dragged them to jail. When a reporter present asked to see the warrant, she was arrested also and her film was confiscated. Everyone was released after the RNC went home. There were no WMDs found; there were no terrorists found. It is used to make everyone take their shoes off at the airport, but allow everyone free access to boats, trains, buses, etc.

To be honest, even bringing up terrorist and WMD in this context seems a little intellectually dishonest - like saying "if you allow <whatever of your choice> the terrorists win." If you want to draw a direct line from this discussion to allowing the terrorists to win, do so but please walk me through your map from one point to another.
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Re: Posse Commitatus

Click to Expand / Collapse  Quote originally posted by GrimJack ...
The mountain I am talking about is that the armed forces are not trained in the concepts of law enforcement - this is not derogatory. The armed forces are trained to defend, attack, and contain; there is no real overlap nor should there be. If 2 police officers heard a bullet whiz by their heads, they would look for the source of and, if possible, talk to the person who fired at them, get them to disarm and take them into custody (ideally). If 2 Marines are fired on, they would track the person to his home and kill him. This is why we do not want the armed forces to perform the duties of law enforcement.
Point well made, but I have a couple of questions.

Weren't the ROE stricter than that even in the Iraqi theatre?

In the case where the Mexican Army is performing incursions into the United States, is that a military or law enforcement issue?
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