943,907 Members | Top Members by Rank

Ad:
You are currently viewing page 8 of this multi-page discussion thread; Jump to the first page
Nov 1st, 2008
0

Re: Theory of Evolution - argument for/against

Click to Expand / Collapse  Quote originally posted by GrimJack ...
I do not like dictionary definitions in a discussion of science - they lack the nuance and focus needed
Only if you insist on imposing your own definitions of what science is. Manipulation of definitions is quite a convenient tool in discrediting competing ideas without having to resort to complete analysis or gathering of evidence.
Click to Expand / Collapse  Quote originally posted by GrimJack ...
I tend to 'Popperian' when I discuss science
Well, that explains a lot of your comments (and the material you have typed in from other sources into your posts).

The Popperian approach to philosophy is more a statement of how Popper believes things should be done i.e. he sought to impose a particular methodology, and deemed anything outside his methodology as invalid or non-scientific.
Click to Expand / Collapse  Quote originally posted by GrimJack ...
I read Principia and Principia Mathematica(I thought the second was part of a series - jeez, I kept thinking why didn't Readers Digest condense these) in my youth (I was pretty bored in high school and had already read all 3 encyclopediae in the library) and have no desire to do so again. Newton used 'axiom' and 'law' interchangeably - in other words its truth was taken for granted.
In Newton's day, as in classical philosophy, the words axiom and law were interchangeable (both having a root meaning "a rule or principle established through existing evidence"). The meanings have diverged somewhat since then in common language. Popper also, notably, uses them to mean different things.

If you read any authors work, but apply different definitions than that author did, you open yourself up to misunderstand that work. But that is Popper from the top of his head down to the tips of his toenails: his core criticism of the work of other philosophers is that they do not use the methodology (definitions, starting point, approach, etc) he espouses.

In any event, we're drifting off topic with this discussion. It's past time that we let people make their arguments for or against evolution, rather than arguing the nuances of Karl Popper's dogmatic approach to philosophical thought.
Reputation Points: 193
Solved Threads: 32
Posting Whiz in Training
grumpier is offline Offline
206 posts
since Aug 2008
Nov 1st, 2008
0

Re: Theory of Evolution - argument for/against

Click to Expand / Collapse  Quote originally posted by grumpier ...
Interestingly enough, those who point out evidence concerning evolution do not claim it proves or disproves creationism. Only creationists claim that. It is only creationists who argue that a creator would not allow evolution. Again, that belief is not testable.
Gotta disagree with you on that one. steven woodman argues that science disproves Creationism in post 33 and I think many would agree. There are different strains of Creationsim, but certainly if you consider the one positing that the Earth is 6,000 years old, it seems mutually exclusive with the Earth being 4.5 billion years old, carbon dating showing rocks which are millions of years old, a Cambrian explosion millions of years ago, etc. Similarly, evolution seems to directly contradict the story of Noah's Ark. They can't both be true, can they? So it seems to me that if you accept the idea that the Earth is 6,000 years old, you can't believe in carbon dating or evolution, and vice versa.

There are also those who think that God created the universe and the Earth billions of years ago and set up the laws of physics and maybe even creates occasional Big Bangs. I can't see any contradiction there.
Featured Poster
Reputation Points: 2614
Solved Threads: 687
Posting Expert
VernonDozier is offline Offline
5,375 posts
since Jan 2008
Nov 1st, 2008
0

Re: Theory of Evolution - argument for/against

Gotta disagree with you on that one. steven woodman argues that science disproves Creationism in post 33 and I think many would agree. There are different strains of Creationsim, but certainly if you consider the one positing that the Earth is 6,000 years old, it seems mutually exclusive with the Earth being 4.5 billion years old, carbon dating showing rocks which are millions of years old, a Cambrian explosion millions of years ago, etc. Similarly, evolution seems to directly contradict the story of Noah's Ark. They can't both be true, can they? So it seems to me that if you accept the idea that the Earth is 6,000 years old, you can't believe in carbon dating or evolution, and vice versa.

There are also those who think that God created the universe and the Earth billions of years ago and set up the laws of physics and maybe even creates occasional Big Bangs. I can't see any contradiction there.
VernonDozier, I am going to use you as a classic example of assumption and ignorance perpetuated by misconception passed down from generations to generations. Don't take it personal, because it is not towards you, it is that you just fit the model of many.

First, you are using the Judean-Christian form of belief to generalize the position of those that subscribe to Creation. When there's thousands of other religion beliefs which subscribe to the concept of Creation.
Second, and most disturbing. Do you know where that number of 6000 years came from?
Do a little investigation and you'll know that it was an ill attempt by some to explain what they didn't know, in an era when it was common for knowledgeable gentlemen to speculate about such things, filling in what could not be found in their Sacred Sources.
It sounded logical at that time and it continued until today, when many think that in order to believe in the Bible they need to adhere to such precepts.

Again VernonDozier, it is not my intention to offend you. Prove that you can take a comment by its face value.

And for those that are more than eager to jump to conclusions quickly, I would like to point that many, if not all of the sciences and disciplines which we rely on, today, so heavily, come from men and woman with a firm belief in God and they tried to prove what they thought as sacred. It is only, today, that a great abyss is preached between belief and science. Even in the Origin of Species, Charles Darwin was careful not to go beyond what he couldn't see. And someone can argue that the book is not even about The Origin of Species, which certainly doesn't say.
I recommend an easy reading book, titled: A Short History of Nearly Everything, by Bill Bryson; if you would like to learn more about how some of these men came to the knowledge that, we take for granted today.
Last edited by Aia; Nov 1st, 2008 at 3:00 pm.
Aia
Reputation Points: 2224
Solved Threads: 218
Nearly a Posting Maven
Aia is offline Offline
2,304 posts
since Dec 2006
Nov 1st, 2008
0

Re: Theory of Evolution - argument for/against

Click to Expand / Collapse  Quote originally posted by Aia ...
VernonDozier, I am going to use you as a classic example of assumption and ignorance perpetuated by misconception passed down from generations to generations. Don't take it personal, because it is not towards you, it is that you just fit the model of many.

First, you are using the Judean-Christian form of belief to generalize the position of those that subscribe to Creation. When there's thousands of other religion beliefs which subscribe to the concept of Creation.
Second, and most disturbing. Do you know where that number of 6000 years came from?
Do a little investigation and you'll know that it was an ill attempt by some to explain what they didn't know, in an era when it was common for knowledgeable gentlemen to speculate about such things, filling in what could not be found in their Sacred Sources.
It sounded logical at that time and it continued until today, when many think that in order to believe in the Bible they need to adhere to such precepts.

Again VernonDozier, it is not my intention to offend you. Prove that you can take a comment by its face value.

And for those that are more than eager to jump to conclusions quickly, I would like to point that many, if not all of the sciences and disciplines which we rely on, today, so heavily, come from men and woman with a firm belief in God and they tried to prove what they thought as sacred. It is only, today, that a great abyss is preached between belief and science. Even in the Origin of Species, Charles Darwin was careful not to go beyond what he couldn't see. And someone can argue that the book is not even about The Origin of Species, which certainly doesn't say.
I recommend an easy reading book, titled: A Short History of Nearly Everything, by Bill Bryson; if you would like to learn more about how some of these men came to the knowledge that, we take for granted today.
No offense taken since I didn't say anything that was ignorant. I think I established the fact that I realize there is more than one theory of Creationism with this line:

Quote ...
There are different strains of Creationsim, but certainly if you consider the one positing that the Earth is 6,000 years old, it seems mutually exclusive with the Earth being 4.5 billion years old
New Earth Creationism believes that the world is 6,000 years old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationism

I don't know what your point is or where you think my flawed thinking is. I never said there was only one form of Creationism. I picked a form of Creationism believed by millions. This strain seems completely incompatible with evolution and carbon dating to me. I don't see how they can both be true.
Featured Poster
Reputation Points: 2614
Solved Threads: 687
Posting Expert
VernonDozier is offline Offline
5,375 posts
since Jan 2008
Nov 1st, 2008
0

Re: Theory of Evolution - argument for/against

>No offense taken since I didn't say anything that was ignorant

Good that you didn't take offense. However you sure did post a series of question and arguments that have their roots in ignorance as I stated.
As I ask you, do you now how that main stream 6000 year concept came to be?
If you knew, this comment: " This strain seems completely incompatible with evolution and carbon dating to me. I don't see how they can both be true." would have never been formulated.

While I noticed that you mentioned: "There are different strains of Creationsim", as I read it the first time; the origin of all are the same Judea-Christian faith. Nevertheless, even so, you very quickly abandon the reference and go to mention another well known example: Noah's Ark.


>I don't know what your point is or where you think my flawed thinking is

Never said that your thinking was flawed, rather that by asking those questions and introducing those arguments as a base of irreconcilable contradictions, you are manifesting that common misconception stated in my previous post, that many do.
Last edited by Aia; Nov 1st, 2008 at 4:57 pm.
Aia
Reputation Points: 2224
Solved Threads: 218
Nearly a Posting Maven
Aia is offline Offline
2,304 posts
since Dec 2006
Nov 1st, 2008
0

Re: Theory of Evolution - argument for/against

Click to Expand / Collapse  Quote originally posted by Aia ...
>No offense taken since I didn't say anything that was ignorant

As I ask you, do you now how that main stream 6000 year concept came to be?
If you knew, this comment: " This strain seems completely incompatible with evolution and carbon dating to me. I don't see how they can both be true." would have never been formulated.
I imagine the 6000 years concept comes from the Bible somewhere. It's been ages since I've read any part of the Bible, so I haven't the foggiest idea what part of the Bible it comes from. Why does it matter whether I know how the 6000 year concept came to be? I don't see how you can believe that the world is 6000 years old and also believe that the world is over four billion years old at the same time. Yes, those two ideas seem completely incompatible to me. I imagine that if I researched where the 6000 year old Earth idea came from, I'd still find them incompatible.
Featured Poster
Reputation Points: 2614
Solved Threads: 687
Posting Expert
VernonDozier is offline Offline
5,375 posts
since Jan 2008
Nov 1st, 2008
0

Re: Theory of Evolution - argument for/against

Gotta disagree with you on that one. steven woodman argues that science disproves Creationism in post 33 and I think many would agree.
OK.... I'll concede that there are some who argue that science disproves creationism.

However, if you read most serious published work on the topic, most scientists conclude that the creationism is based on a premise that cannot be subjected to a scientific test. Yes, they duck the question.
Reputation Points: 193
Solved Threads: 32
Posting Whiz in Training
grumpier is offline Offline
206 posts
since Aug 2008
Nov 2nd, 2008
0

Re: Theory of Evolution - argument for/against

Oh don't tell me these types of threads are still going on. *sigh* I guess it never ends.

Btw: Creationism.
Featured Poster
Reputation Points: 952
Solved Threads: 4
Posting Sage
christina>you is offline Offline
7,329 posts
since Feb 2007
Nov 2nd, 2008
0

Re: Theory of Evolution - argument for/against

Pope Benedict told a gathering of scientists including the British cosmologist Stephen Hawking on Friday that there was no contradiction between believing in God and empirical science.
Reputation Points: 404
Solved Threads: 180
Nearly a Posting Virtuoso
bumsfeld is offline Offline
1,422 posts
since Jul 2005
Nov 2nd, 2008
0

Re: Theory of Evolution - argument for/against

Quote ...
you can't believe in carbon dating or evolution
actually carbon dating is rather innacurate

Quote ...
Pope Benedict told a gathering of scientists including the British cosmologist Stephen Hawking on Friday that there was no contradiction between believing in God and empirical science.
dont believe him he was a nazi
Moderator
Featured Poster
Reputation Points: 1784
Solved Threads: 574
Moderator
jbennet is offline Offline
16,520 posts
since Apr 2005

This thread is more than three months old

No one has posted to this discussion for at least three months. Please let old threads die and do not reply to them unless you feel you have something new and valuable to contribute that absolutely must be added to make the discussion complete. Otherwise, please start a new thread in this forum instead.
Message:
Previous Thread in Geeks' Lounge Forum Timeline: Helpminutes left! from a desperate mom!
Next Thread in Geeks' Lounge Forum Timeline: Happy new Year to All





About Us | Contact Us | Advertise | Acceptable Use Policy
Forum Index | Build Custom RSS Feed


Follow us on Twitter


© 2011 DaniWeb® LLC