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Programmer Vs. Software engineer.

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pyro 214
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Im queit new to programming, and currently taking my first year engineering at a college.
During engineering i had to take a programming course and i like it quiet a bit, so im looking at getting a degree in a programming related field.

No clue what i should transfer into next year (im willing to take up to 8 years of school):
software engineering or programming?

initially i thought programmers didnt make much over 40k a year, so the only way to achieve a paycheck of 60k+ a year (what id like to have) was only possible as a software engineer (and i already have 1st year engineering under my belt). Im also wondering what the working conditions for each job is like. I tried looking on the internet for some answers but i could never get a straight answer, so i thought i would come to the people who knew what they were talking about [IMG]http://www.go4expert.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]

So my main questions are (C++ programmer Vs. software engineer...in general):

-what would the average income of a C++ programmer and software engineer be after having a degree in there specified field as well as co-op jobs along the way.

-how hard is it to get a job between the two?

-how stable are the jobs ?

any other advice would be greatly appreciated :)

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Rashakil Fol
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programming and "software engineering" are the same thing. If your school is offering a "programming" curriculum that is not called software engineering and is not called computer science, while offering a "software engineering" curriculum too, then I have to say, WTF?

There is actually no such thing as "software engineering," unless you work for NASA or other fields where the cost of failure is very high.

To answer your main questions:

- The average income of anything depends on where you'll be working.
- Your ability to get a job depends on how much of a non-moron you are.
- The stability of your job depends on how much of a non-moron you are.

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tonakai
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programming and "software engineering" are the same thing. If your school is offering a "programming" curriculum that is not called software engineering and is not called computer science, while offering a "software engineering" curriculum too, then I have to say, WTF?

i don't think so, these two are totally different.
From Wikipedia :

Software engineering (SE) is the design, development, documentation and maintenance of software by applying technologies and practices from computer science, project management, engineering, application domains, interface design, digital asset management and other fields.

but in small and some medium projects which you have small teams, you sometimes work as both software engineer and programmer. (may be more).

in some medium and big projects there can be also a software architect who creates the abstract structure and programmers implement it.
for your questions:

- i think software engineer earn higher then programmers in most situations but there can be exceptions.

- for the others: depends on many things, you, them, project.. etc...

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pyro 214
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is there an average i can expect though?

grading with a degree as well as expericance....

(40k+, 60k+) ?

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tonakai
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well actually i am from turkey, so these values change greatly...
i think you can work 40k-60k as a software engineer in turkey.
in europe you can earn way more than that, double may be.
i am not sure about USA.

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Ancient Dragon
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40-60K is only starting salary. professionals with experience can often get a lot more than that. On the west coast (USA) you could easily get double that amount -- of course you will need it because it will cost tripple to live there :)

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WaltP
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Contact your local library or unemployment office. They have books that outline salary ranges for most if not all professions.

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Infarction
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40-60K is only starting salary. professionals with experience can often get a lot more than that. On the west coast (USA) you could easily get double that amount -- of course you will need it because it will cost tripple to live there :)

Yes, here on the west coast (at least, between Seattle and Redmond), 75k-80k is about average for a student coming out of college with a Bachelor's. ;)

As to the difference between programming and SE, programming is the actual task of writing code. SE encompasses a whole process of writing, maintaining, planning, designing, etc... for a software. Typically you can get a 2-year programming degree whereas SE is often a 4-year program (2-year programs might exists, but would be relatively low level). There is also a difference between SE and CS, as CS tends to orient on the actual performance of various algorithms given various environments or inputs and a lot less on the process of developing a software.

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jwenting
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well actually i am from turkey, so these values change greatly...
i think you can work 40k-60k as a software engineer in turkey.
in europe you can earn way more than that, double may be.
i am not sure about USA.

oh? 60K what would that be, and per what?
If Turkish Lira per month, yah, you can get more in Europe.
If USD per month, forget it (especially as an entry level salary).

For experienced people (5-10 years), expect between 30 and 45K Euro per month (outside London, which pays more because of the extreme cost of living).
For entry level positions, 20-25K at most (I started at something like 12.5K 10 years ago).

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Ancient Dragon
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oh? 60K what would that be, and per what?
If Turkish Lira per month, yah, you can get more in Europe.
If USD per month, forget it (especially as an entry level salary).

For experienced people (5-10 years), expect between 30 and 45K Euro per month (outside London, which pays more because of the extreme cost of living).
For entry level positions, 20-25K at most (I started at something like 12.5K 10 years ago).

Don't you mean per year ? 30-45K per month :eek: I'll move to Europe for that. 40-60K per year USD is about right for entry level position depending on education and location.

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tonakai
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let me clear this for you ;)
i was speaking 40k-60k USD per year...
but many new graduades are working lower than that value... in turkey

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~s.o.s~
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Here the entry level salary is around 8K USD per annum (when converted from INR). Very less I guess compared to other countries. No wonder everyone wants to move out...

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Infarction
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Here the entry level salary is around 8K USD per annum. Very less I guess compared to other countries.

Am I correct in assuming that 8k is still a decent living?

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~s.o.s~
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Depends on how you see decent as...

If you mean basic necessities of food, shelter and clothing along with a bit of fun then yes, its sufficient. But if supporting someone then no, far too many compromises to be done.

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Infarction
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hm... somewhat surprising. I would have expected a profession like that to yield a comfortable standard of living. No wonder everyone wants to move out...

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WaltP
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Here the entry level salary is around 8K USD per annum (when converted from INR). Very less I guess compared to other countries. No wonder everyone wants to move out...

And no wonder many US companies contract a lot of work there... :confused:

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sreider
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Actually, there is a such thing as a software engineer. And it is not the same as a programmer. Programmers focus more on writing the code. Software engineers focus on a larger picture...cost of making the program, cost for consumers, consumer usability, efficiency, and management of the overall project. Although programmers do this somewhat, they focus on the product itself.

programming and "software engineering" are the same thing. If your school is offering a "programming" curriculum that is not called software engineering and is not called computer science, while offering a "software engineering" curriculum too, then I have to say, WTF?

There is actually no such thing as "software engineering," unless you work for NASA or other fields where the cost of failure is very high.

To answer your main questions:

- The average income of anything depends on where you'll be working.
- Your ability to get a job depends on how much of a non-moron you are.
- The stability of your job depends on how much of a non-moron you are.

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Narue
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>Programmers focus more on writing the code. Software engineers
>focus on a larger picture...cost of making the program, cost for
>consumers, consumer usability, efficiency, and management of
>the overall project.
I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you on that one. Sure, bad programmers focus more on writing the code, but good programmers are often indistinguishable from your definition of a software engineer.

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technogeek_42
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and how about a newbie salary???

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hollystyles
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If your main motivation for choosing between a programmer or software engineer is salary I think you're asking the wrong question. You should do what you enjoy. If you enjoy it you will be good at it. If you're good at it you can make whatever income you require from it. You can work as a lowly 25k GPB code monkey for example, but make twice that co-authoring a technical book. It doesn't matter what you chose to do you will earn what you are worth in the long run.

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