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HTML Validation why bother?
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#21 Nov 9th, 2009
You should use it because else you may get undefined behaviour. Thats why standards exist. Secondly, if its not valid, it is unlikely to be screenreadder friendly. If you dont take adequate steps to support disabled users you could risk being sued (look up the Sydney Olympics accessibility scandal).
And yes, you should have a correct document type defined or else you risk being penalised by some search engines.
And yes, you should have a correct document type defined or else you risk being penalised by some search engines.
Last edited by jbennet; Nov 9th, 2009 at 1:24 pm.
If i am helpful, please give me reputation points.
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#22 Nov 9th, 2009
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Originally Posted by Wrams 
I'm simply letting him know that its bad for your web site thats all. No Doctype will make search engines go into "Quirks Mode" which will effect the site in general. I'm NOT insisting he uses it I am giving him some friendly advice to help him and his web site out.
Why, do you think I am wrong giving him some advice...?
"make search engines go into "Quirks Mode" "
Search engines dont go into any kind of mode, and even if they do, who cares?!
And what's so notoriuosele bad about "quirks mode?
[It gives you more coding options than W3C ever will = qiurks means FREEDOM]
I've asked you that;
Because: html doesn't need any of what you are demanding - the Document Extension will suffice!
I remember the time when you were not allowed to write anything ( meaning nothing ) before the <HTML> tag, 'cause it would cause errors on the parser, or render as unformated as if it was a part of your page content, but more often confuse early days Servers sending a bunch of uninteligibile crap to your clients.
Watch this:
this is Google!
HTML and CSS Syntax (Toggle Plain Text)
and this is Google /Firefox
<html><head>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<title>Mozilla Firefox Start Page</title><style>body,td,a,p,.h{font-family:arial...<!DOCTYPE HTML> <html xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr"> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"/> <title>Mozilla | Firefox web browser & Thunderbird email client</title> <script type="text/javascript">s_account="mozillaco...
Do you see the DTD anywhere near to being specified ???
The only doctype that is practically important is allready stated in your document type marked by its solid extensin, ie HTM HTML ASP PHP etc...
It is however very wise to use define the charset, but if you are not good at it it is 1000x better not to confuse the machine with wrong info.
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#23 Nov 9th, 2009
Who tole you that rubbish? Search Engines go into Quirks Mode and I am willing to bet you on that. Obviously you no nothing of coding. I've been a web developer for 9 years how long have you...? Google it if you don't believe me. Also whats your problem?
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Originally Posted by Troy III
Because you are wrong!
"make search engines go into "Quirks Mode" "
Search engines dont go into any kind of mode, and even if they do, who cares?!
And what's so notoriuosele bad about "quirks mode?
[It gives you more coding options than W3C ever will = qiurks means FREEDOM]
I've asked you that;
Because: html doesn't need any of what you are demanding - the Document Extension will suffice!
I remember the time when you were not allowed to write anything ( meaning nothing ) before the <HTML> tag, 'cause it would cause errors on the parser, or render as unformated as if it was a part of your page content, but more often confuse early days Servers sending a bunch of uninteligibile crap to your clients.
Watch this:
this is Google!
HTML and CSS Syntax (Toggle Plain Text)
and this is Google /Firefox
this is firefox official<html><head> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"> <title>Mozilla Firefox Start Page</title><style>body,td,a,p,.h{font-family:arial...
<!DOCTYPE HTML> <html xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr"> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"/> <title>Mozilla | Firefox web browser & Thunderbird email client</title> <script type="text/javascript">s_account="mozillaco...
Do you see the DTD anywhere near to being specified ???
The only doctype that is practically important is allready stated in your document type marked by its solid extensin, ie HTM HTML ASP PHP etc...
It is however very wise to use define the charset, but if you are not good at it it is 1000x better not to confuse the machine with wrong info.
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#24 Nov 9th, 2009
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Originally Posted by Wrams
Who tole you that rubbish? Search Engines go into Quirks Mode and I am willing to bet you on that. Obviously you no nothing of coding. I've been a web developer for 9 years how long have you...? Google it if you don't believe me. Also whats your problem?
Let Search Engines go into text only-mode if you like, that's even better for you, since it would only speed things up, -but that has nothing to do with our concern here and our main concern is our client, clients!
The only thing that matters is the welllformed structure under the <html> opener until it is closed - everything else is an overhead and a potentially higher chance of causing a mess.
Rergards.
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,400
Reputation: 
Solved Threads: 171
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#25 Nov 9th, 2009
I find quirks mode causes problems it renders very differently in different browsers, and goes invisible in some.
I know the code I write works in my browser, and thumbdrive versions of other browsers.
The quickest way to find if code works is to test it in lots of browsers,
I push BrowserShots to do so, major screw ups have blankscreens, bad displays or error messages in the returned screenshots.
Valid code, gives less screwups in real browsers
Valid code with no fixed sizes for elements (ems %), except graphic elements that actually are fixed size (<img>), even display very similar in different browsers and different OS different resolutions
I know the code I write works in my browser, and thumbdrive versions of other browsers.
The quickest way to find if code works is to test it in lots of browsers,
I push BrowserShots to do so, major screw ups have blankscreens, bad displays or error messages in the returned screenshots.
Valid code, gives less screwups in real browsers
Valid code with no fixed sizes for elements (ems %), except graphic elements that actually are fixed size (<img>), even display very similar in different browsers and different OS different resolutions
Failure is not an option It's included free, you don't have to do anything to get it
If at first you dont succeed, join the club
Of course its always in the last place you look, you dont keep looking after you find it
Please mark solved problems, solved
If at first you dont succeed, join the club
Of course its always in the last place you look, you dont keep looking after you find it
Please mark solved problems, solved
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#26 Nov 9th, 2009
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Originally Posted by ggeoff
Hi
I am using Expression Web 2 and need to alter an existing website so as to display nicely on what I regard as a standard display size of 1024 x 768. It would have been better to start from scratch but it's a bit late for that now. I have an error "td tag not closed before this body tag closed". I couldn't find any open tags and decided to sumbit the page to the HTML validator. To cut a long story short it didn't accept the Doctype statement throwing 9 errors.
Just out of curiousity I decided to enter www.microsoft.com into the validator. Is this a record? The validator threw up 296 errors and 31 warnings!
Microsoft seem to be doing all right so why bother should we bother with the HTML validator?
Geoff
They can help me get higher wages
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#27 Nov 10th, 2009
im not getting suied for not using a doctype ddt. that would be an error on the person suing not me. nothing is required to make a website. u just have to make it legal. makeing a website and not adding doctypes or ddts is not illegal. noone can get sued FOR THAT.
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#28 Nov 10th, 2009
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Originally Posted by SKANK!!!!!
im not getting suied for not using a doctype ddt. that would be an error on the person suing not me. nothing is required to make a website. u just have to make it legal. makeing a website and not adding doctypes or ddts is not illegal. noone can get sued FOR THAT.
There is a precedent. They didnt follow the spec which made it non-screenreader friendly, thereby discriminating against the blind.
Last edited by jbennet; Nov 10th, 2009 at 6:07 am.
If i am helpful, please give me reputation points.
1
#29 Nov 10th, 2009
Look I understand what your saying about DOCTYPE's but they are supposed to be in coded HTML pages of a web site, Its not compolsery its just telling browsers what the document is about. You don't have to add one, however it is recommended.
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#30 Nov 10th, 2009
SKANK!!!!!: Refusing to use a doctype does sound like some blatant obstinacy, but hey, it's a free world. If you're happy with your websites and their performance then I don't see any particular reason that you should feel obligated to change them. I do think it's a little close-minded not to consider learning what you can about web design validity and making use of what you learn.
Changing subjects, I'll add my two bits about using HTML validation. I don't find it particularity important to make sure that my sites are 100% valid but I do find that using the validator can help me find mistakes in my code that I didn't know existed. I usually clean up the easiest things that cause validation to fail and then make a value judgment on the last and most difficult items. I usually try to determine if these last and most difficult items are likely to cause real rendering problems or Google Search Engine problems and make my decision based on that. And for your information, I generally hand-code my sites (at least the template) and I'm a pretty big fan of sticking to standards and making things valid. The only time I deviate from this is either out of ignorance or when I use experimental CSS properties which I do choose to use at times to give those who have broken away from IE an improved visual experience.
Changing subjects, I'll add my two bits about using HTML validation. I don't find it particularity important to make sure that my sites are 100% valid but I do find that using the validator can help me find mistakes in my code that I didn't know existed. I usually clean up the easiest things that cause validation to fail and then make a value judgment on the last and most difficult items. I usually try to determine if these last and most difficult items are likely to cause real rendering problems or Google Search Engine problems and make my decision based on that. And for your information, I generally hand-code my sites (at least the template) and I'm a pretty big fan of sticking to standards and making things valid. The only time I deviate from this is either out of ignorance or when I use experimental CSS properties which I do choose to use at times to give those who have broken away from IE an improved visual experience.
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