I checked out both of those sites and they have tons of content, thanks guys. I had seen an add for Torque on DaniWeb somewhere and I checked it out too. However, it looks like I need to learn to crawl before I walk. So my plan now is to enroll in a few classes on programming, this WinAPI stuff looks confusing, I no longer know my limits in memory, since before I was limited to a small stack unless you could program in protected. So thanks again, for the links, and I'll soak up what ever content I can from them