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CIS or CS degree question??
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Originally Posted by EricaJanine
Hey Castro,
If your concentration is to work in a Fortune 100 company building enterprise-wide network applications, a CIS degree won't help you much.
I also agree there will be a lot of 'programmers' in the field, but not many who understand truly what they're programming. If you get the CS degree, it will most likely set you apart from the everyday coders.
ej :mrgreen:
That said, CS and CIS grads don't seem to have a problem finding work. But if your goal is to be a coder, you should really look and see what is going on in this industry before you get too attached to that idea.
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Originally Posted by relawson
In fact, what you learn now in the CS program (except for higher level concepts) may not apply 10 years from now.
It's true that Python, Perl, Java .NET (C#), whatever are 'newer', but are just implementations getting to the root of solving classic CS problems. It doesn't matter, as much, about the languages (that do change) as understanding what they're trying to accomplish. CIS will not and will probably never delve that deep.
I agree, in a corporate environment, it will ultimately depend on the technical aptitude of the person, not the degree. But to architect a new solution in a networked environment today ultimately requires CS, not some technical management degree. If the goal is to manage, then a CS degree will still help, but CIS would be better. Working for a large company, our group respects CS a lot more than CIS. The directors here have CS concentrations, not CIS.
Just thought I'd chime in...it's Monday, after all. :mrgreen:
E.
1. If at first you don't succeed; call it version 1.0.
2. Just because nobody understands you does not mean you're an artist.
3. :twisted:
2. Just because nobody understands you does not mean you're an artist.
3. :twisted:
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Originally Posted by EricaJanine
CS fundamentals have been around (officially) since the 60s and haven't changed much. (See Donald Knuth.) Unless there is some redefinition of rudimentary math and/or binary interpretation, not much will change. C and C++ have been around for a long time. Linux is a variation of Unix: same thing. (Linux first officially surfaced over 14 years ago.) Other than differences in 'flavor' CS hasn't changed as much as the Microsoft world would like for us to believe. And Donald Knuth has written a series of books, about 50 years old :!:, that are still regarded as the 'bibles' of CS. So, I guess I really disagree with this statement.
E.
Your experiences may differ. I think that CS and CIS programs vary quite a bit. Some of the CS programs "stuck in the 80s" comes to mind for me, however some of the CS programs are fantastic. I don't think we can say across the board that one is better than the other.
I personally feel more prepared to design databases and architect applications than some of the people with CS degrees that I work with, as that is a higher level concept centered around the business.
But then again, there are people from both sides who are quite successful at this. Perhaps my confidence comes from my graduate experience which I feel was much more valuable than my undergrad experience. Even more important than either is working knowledge of these concepts.
From a practical standpoint, it is looking like lower level jobs like straight coding are going to India. Because of this, CIS might be the best career decision. Short of a change in our trade policy, I have very low hopes for programming jobs.
Today's news on Dice.com is a study that says IT jobs in the US will shrink by 15%. Not great news for CS and CIS students.
Hi there,
I wrote this in my previous post:
... it will ultimately depend on the technical aptitude of the person, not the degree. But to architect a new solution in a networked environment today ultimately requires CS, not some technical management degree.
It's all good one has management skills and a technical aptitude to go with it, as well as some inclination to understand the business side of the solution being developed (in my world, that is essential), but the actual nuts and bolts cannot be achieved without understanding the CS fundamentals behind a solution.
Of course it takes both, but to illustrate the point I am trying to make, let me issue a query: Would you want a Fortune 100 multi-million dollar solution built by a team of CIS-degreed people with a decent understanding of CS? Or would you want a a team of CS code junkies with a decent understanding of the business? If I had to make a hardline decision, I'd elect the latter. And that is why we're structured here in my world the way we are.
Maybe we're an anomaly in the corporate world, but our team has pioneered software and has been highly successful in this arrangement. Does that mean other team structures don't work? No, but we are a lean team that can get things done in a very short amount of time. When it comes down to it, for me, I rest on the CS background I have and not the management side. It seems a lot more valuable.
I wrote this in my previous post:
... it will ultimately depend on the technical aptitude of the person, not the degree. But to architect a new solution in a networked environment today ultimately requires CS, not some technical management degree.
It's all good one has management skills and a technical aptitude to go with it, as well as some inclination to understand the business side of the solution being developed (in my world, that is essential), but the actual nuts and bolts cannot be achieved without understanding the CS fundamentals behind a solution.
Of course it takes both, but to illustrate the point I am trying to make, let me issue a query: Would you want a Fortune 100 multi-million dollar solution built by a team of CIS-degreed people with a decent understanding of CS? Or would you want a a team of CS code junkies with a decent understanding of the business? If I had to make a hardline decision, I'd elect the latter. And that is why we're structured here in my world the way we are.
Maybe we're an anomaly in the corporate world, but our team has pioneered software and has been highly successful in this arrangement. Does that mean other team structures don't work? No, but we are a lean team that can get things done in a very short amount of time. When it comes down to it, for me, I rest on the CS background I have and not the management side. It seems a lot more valuable.
1. If at first you don't succeed; call it version 1.0.
2. Just because nobody understands you does not mean you're an artist.
3. :twisted:
2. Just because nobody understands you does not mean you're an artist.
3. :twisted:
" Or would you want a a team of CS code junkies with a decent understanding of the business?"
I guess that is where we don't agree. I want someone with a very good understanding of the business designing the solution, and not just a "decent" understanding, to be leading the team and designing a solution. I think coders if not directed get tunnel vision. I have been both, and greatly appreciate direction when coding so I can focus on just that.
That said, I think coders should have an understanding of the business as well. I work for a very large corporation and a large IT shop. Business knowledge is paramount. The reason outsourcing is failing for our company is that goals of the business are lost in translation.
I guess that is where we don't agree. I want someone with a very good understanding of the business designing the solution, and not just a "decent" understanding, to be leading the team and designing a solution. I think coders if not directed get tunnel vision. I have been both, and greatly appreciate direction when coding so I can focus on just that.
That said, I think coders should have an understanding of the business as well. I work for a very large corporation and a large IT shop. Business knowledge is paramount. The reason outsourcing is failing for our company is that goals of the business are lost in translation.
The point I was trying to make was the other one: I would rather a system be implemented by someone actually understanding networks, memory allocation, IOCompletion ports, etc so a wonderfully-understood solution won't crash a week after it's released. Architecture is crucial, and I believe it is better (in the extreme example I cited) to have something in a production environment that works without an outage and can be scaled and modified easily to tweak it with what a business group wants.
In order to ensure an application is built correctly, a management concentration will not help a team of developers with that, from an academic standpoint. It is true the CIS side will help 'big picture' solving of a business need. What I am talking about is the technical implementation.
It is true that certain developers and development teams can and do get tunnel vision or seduced by the latest thing to come out to solve issues. It makes sense that someone would need to manage that from an overall vision standpoint. Again, I am talking about the actual build/install/test/implementation grind.
In order to ensure an application is built correctly, a management concentration will not help a team of developers with that, from an academic standpoint. It is true the CIS side will help 'big picture' solving of a business need. What I am talking about is the technical implementation.
It is true that certain developers and development teams can and do get tunnel vision or seduced by the latest thing to come out to solve issues. It makes sense that someone would need to manage that from an overall vision standpoint. Again, I am talking about the actual build/install/test/implementation grind.
1. If at first you don't succeed; call it version 1.0.
2. Just because nobody understands you does not mean you're an artist.
3. :twisted:
2. Just because nobody understands you does not mean you're an artist.
3. :twisted:
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Originally Posted by EricaJanine
The point I was trying to make was the other one: I would rather a system be implemented by someone actually understanding networks, memory allocation, IOCompletion ports, etc.
I develop business applications using 4GL languages. For the type of development I do, I care about business requirements and converting them into a working application. The purpose of 4GL languages is to allow us to focus more on the business and less on the hardware/networks. If you are talking C, C++, Pascal, Assembler, or any other low level language I say CS all the way. If you are talking higher-level languages (keywork 'Visual') like VB, C#, Java, COBOL, ...etc than a CIS degree is perfectly suited to this (as are CS grads). I do alot of PL/SQL, T-SQL, ansi-SQL, and database design also.
In addition to coding, I also create design artifacts during the initial phases of the lifecycle (modeling and requirements documents) using System Architect which is similar to Rational Rose, only it sucks
FYI, don't encourage your company to purchase SA. •
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Originally Posted by hostmoon
I'd say it depends on the program. I personally went for the CS degree. I have worked with, and hired/not hired people from both types of programs. It always depended on the job. Some schools still call them MIS degrees (uhg). It really comes down to what you wish to do in your career: technical, or manager type (IMHO).
CS types tend to be more technical and mathematical in nature, CIS tends to push the business side of things. Our CIS people primarily do project management type jobs (MS project, paper work paper work paperwork). The CS types do all the 'real' work. (No offense intended to CIS/MIS types
dale
Sheldon Sides
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Join Date: Feb 2002
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I think the best option is what I'm doing. For undergraduate, a B.S. in Computer Science with a minor in Business Computer Information Systems (So I get a taste of Business IT/CIS in my minor) with all of the math and programming skills in my major. Now that I'm graduating, I'm going to go on to my MBA for grad school. I think that makes a good mix of comp sci and business
Dani the Computer Science Gal
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And if you're interested in Internet marketing there is twitter.com/DaniWebAds
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Originally Posted by cscgal
Now that I'm graduating, I'm going to go on to my MBA for grad school.
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