I guess :rolleyes:

Come on, dude. Some jokes are better left untold. Bad taste.

Hmm, currently 13 pages. These issues are never easy, simple, cut. or dried. . . . and Neat they are most definitely not. At least this is in a tech forum and not a science blog. Those things can be totally brutal.

When you start really digging into an area of science the more messy and involved it gets. On the surface Macro Evolution (yes, I need to distinquish between the two) is the generally accepted scientific theory. Unlike the "Big Bang", or Reletivity though, when you really delve into it and origin of life papers you can tell it is at best incomplete or uncomprehensive, and at worst needs some reworking or could be moved in another direction. To those scientists who dedicate their efforts to investigating these questions, kudo's to them, but they definitely have a lot of work cut out ahead of them.

Current hurdles in the field include some of the following: (Warning, I am not a scientist, just a nerd with too many questions and too much time on his hands that does way too much reading, and All I ever learn is that I know less now than I thought I new before. I eat my humble pie. I ask for seconds too.)

The Cambrian Explosion. Over a very short period of geological time (5 to 15 million years according to scientific dating estimates and the fossil record.), almost all of our current species appear yet since then there really hasn't been much except extinctions.

Organisms with identical or exceptionaly similar morphologies but yet share no common genetic anscestry, This is called convergence, and explaining it is problematic for the current evolutionary theories.

Currently establishing the biological pathways for a primordial soup is elusive. Carbon monixide levels along with many other factors seem to make the creation of life in that way impossible. It seems the ingredients and conditions to create biological molecules at on stage would destroy or stop them from forming the next. This has led many researchers to head into the direction of what on the surface would appear to be farther out theories like panspermia.

Simultaneous emergance of divergent but yet symbiotic organisms. Right now Scientists are up to scenerios of 3 totally distinct unrelated organisms that could not survive at all if it weren't for each other.

And whats truly scary, is from an evolutionary standpoint, it is only small critters, with massive populations, and rabid gestation cycles and who have large numbers of offspring where the probable balance of beneficial to harmful mutations swings into the favor of beneficial.... Which is more than likely why beetles, rats, cockroaches, bacteria, and other vermin seem to survive everything and have been around the longest while large bodied advanced animals like dinosaurs, whales, and ... quite frighteningly to me... Humans... have a tendancy to go extinct. As a side note, radiation hardiness... which the aforementioned vermine have in spades, but we people seriously lack... Is also a concern. One Massive Super or HyperNova too close to us and BAM! I know, one's not supposed to happen probability speaking for another 500,000 years or so... but still, if thats all it would take to wipe the chalk board it changes your perspective on the power of the universe.

But I digress, what I'm really saying is that whereas some scientific theories are very strong, like the big bang, that defeats opposing models such as the constant state theory, and many others repeatedly, and Einstein's theory of reletivity, which is constantly tested and seen to predict the reality of measurements,and so show a high probability of roughly approximating reality. Others, though generally accepted because they do seem to best describe what we see from a naturalistic view, are in no means as polished and tested. I would not feel comfortable at all betting my life on macro evolution, I predict the end model, as research continues will diverge greatly from currently held theory, And in general, I know science is never done, but Origin of Life research has a long long long way to go.

Also a parting note, Current Big Bang Cosmology indicates that the Universe had a finite beginning, and if everyting continues on its current course, will continue expanding, thus cooling, and in more possible years than I can fathom burn out as matter will be too spread out to form starforming regions. It is however currently not predicted to go through a big crunch and start all over again... Thus it seems the universe began at a finite beginning from a transcendental event, and naturalistically unless something happens or intervenes, all current knowledge indicates a cold dead ending... no cyclic rebirths.

Actually, it's microevolution that most people are okay with. Natural selection and very small forms of evolution have actually been seen since the beginning of the human race. Macroevolution, the idea of large scale evolution (from monkeys to man) is disputed. However, both are connected.. Personally, I believe our current findings through DNA testing and the genome project has proven evolution thoroughly enough.

Yes, the HIV virus is a perfect example. It replicates so quickly, that It can easily avoid our medicines through natural selection. Viruses and bacteria evolve much more quickly than humans or any other animals. HIV can rapidly evolve, and become immune to almost any treatment. I think it will be some small virus or bacteria that will eventually kill us off. Especially since the discovery of penicillin has lead to overuse of the antibacterial. Eventually, some super virus will evolve, and kill much quicker than HIV...

Yes, as I said: Everything that has a beginning, ultimately has an end. Infinity is not real.. History, science, mathematics all prove that nothing can ever be infinite. Einstein's theory of relativity uses this idea.. Calculus does.. And since the beginning of mankind, we have never known anything that had an infinite characteristic. The universe will one day reach its maximum expansion, cool to temperatures near absolute zero, and theoretically implode.. destroying everything. (Fermion-boson theory).

Ok, I read that whole damn thing. Now I have to chime in.

First off, all of life is faith. I believe in atoms and molecules but have never seen them just like many people believe in God but have never seen him.

I tend to believe in a divine creator and micro evolution.

I have major issues with religion in general though. The majority of religions share the same concepts and borrow (evolve) from one another.

Christianity is not unique. Not Christmas, Christmas Trees, Easter, the ressurection or virgin birth.

Just because Christ had martrys mean nothing. There are plenty of people willing to die for their virgins in Iraq.

Those of you who want to share his message to every nation are condeming millions of people to hell in your beliefs, ignorance is bliss right? That's not mercy.

The biggest issue I have? If God is all knowing he know's he can't trust humans to choose the right religion so should not condemn those who fail to.

Sorry, gotta pick up a friend from the airport so no spell checking was done.

haha.. hope it didn't take you too long.. Now I get to dissect your post:mrgreen:

True to some extend; however, we have actual proof that atoms and molecules exist. You can actually go online and find mathematical/scientific tests proving their existence. This is not the same for god. There is absolutely no proof a supreme being exists... Only holes in current scientific knowledge where a 'god' may fit in.

True, we can date many religions back to the ancient pagans and polytheism.

No kidding.. Christianity tends to have the "My way or the highway" attitude towards all others. Christians just want to convert everyone, and don't really give a damn about the people's previous beliefs/customs/traditions. Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe immediately comes to mind. The Christians are too aggressive, and unyielding to any ideas that may seem unorthodox.

What happens to people who have never known god? People who were never forced to convert by missionaries.. or who never grew up with faith.. or who believed in some other religion? They may never have been baptized, followed the ten commandments, or even known about christianity. What happens to them? If there was some god, would he not want us all to believe and praise him?

What about all the disease and murder throughout the world? If god is the ultimate creator.. he must have created AIDS, Alzheimer's, Polio.. snakes, sharks, etc. Why would he create something that would torture his people? People die needlessly everyday from these diseases. That is something I could never quite comprehend. I mean, okay.. all the murders, and torture by other human beings was the work of the devil. But, Christians believe that god created EVERYTHING. The devil cannot create, only tempt people. Why would god create such diseases and animals capable of causing us great pain? Does he enjoy looking down at us, and seeing us suffer- to scream in pain and agony.

I'm back.

I wanted to expand on some statements I've made.

A good article on a very offensive site, the content is relevant to this discussion though, I in no way subscribe to the their ideoligy.

http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/hwr17a.htm

Or let's link to a the new bible called Wiki, it's a little more neutral.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_..._from_Paganism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christm...er_decorations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

And some of you mentioned infinity. String Theory tells us that the universe is not infinate. There is no vacuum in the universe, space is composed of strings or knots and space has a smallest unit. That's getting into quantum physics or mysticism, your pick. This theory is unproven as all theories are not facts as stated earlier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory

Since Christianity is just repacking of old ideas why should I believe it. It is not original.

Why wait? I've got matches...


I still don't buy this stuff. Just because humans can't really conceive of infinity and something with no ending or beginning, they have to come up with something bizarre to explain a beginning -- like "The Big Bang". I just can't fathom the concept that all the mass and energy of the existing universe started as a single infinitesimal point and exploded the universe into existence. It makes more sense to me that the universe has always existed, and is currently in it's expanding phase. Eventually it'll contract to a minimum size and start expanding again. Like one of those resperator masks in those hospital shows. That makes more sense to me. This also fits my concept of the makeup of the universe and dimensions (2D, 3D, 4D, etc), including Einstein's Curvature of Space idea.

You fail to see my point. The scientists tell me their theories have been proven as much as the Christians feel the Bible is the true word of God.

I do not have access to the lab equipment necessary to prove many of these experiments myself. I have no way to know I'm not being hoodwinked by an opressive scientific movement. I believe what the scientists say without having run the experiments myself anyways. That is faith. To prevent it from being faith I would need to personally test the theories.

My experiences give me rationale for those beliefs, my faith in many scientific theories is not blind, but it is faith none the less.

Yay, finally someone to back me up a little bit. Most scientists do not believe the universe in infinite.. Even some kind of oscillation of 'big bangs' and implosions, would be finite b/c of the law of conservation of momentum. One day, same as everything else, the universe will be no more...

The entire point I have been trying to make with this argument is that through science and math, one can prove that infinity does not exist. Nothing can live forever. Therefore, how can god, or an afterlife exist? Both would involve infinity, which has never been seen as a characteristic of anything in our universe today. God can't exist, b/c nothing can live forever.. nothing could have always existed.. Besides, wut the hell are you going to do in afterlife for eternity? Thats a long time of doing absolutely nothing..