Couldn't disagree more, jwenting.

Now I'm not going to get into 'value judgements' here about what people do on the internet. The simple fact is that 'seedy' areas of the internet exist, and people frequent them. In that regard, the internet is no different to any other facet of human activity. All I'm concerned about is the extent to which the existence of those 'seedy' environs impacts on me!

I'm also not 'buying' the claim, that " Problem is that most people don't set up their browser correctly". I've just had this discussion elsewhere, on a different topic, where a professional PC technician was attacking my colleagues and myself for freely offering people hardware advice and assistance. "Ordinary people don't service and tune up their cars", he claimed, "and ordinary people shouldn't be servicing and tuning up their PCs." He was wrong to assume that nobody should have the right to perform the work themselves, but he was perfectly correct to state that most people don't do so! The same is true for browser configuration. Let's face it. Most people fire up the system and simply use it, and they have a right to expect that they should be able to do so. I don't accept the claim that people who do so are 'irresponsible'.


Windows is NOT a secure Operating System in the way some other OS's can be. Some of the fundamental concepts underlying the way Windows works makes this so. Applications are allowed to acess the Windows Registry, and thus alter some of the ways the Operating System itself works. When that application is, in the manner of Internet Explorer, allowed to integrate with the core of Windows itself, and alter key Operating System files, then we have a nightmareish situation. Some other web browsers, such as Firefox for example, are 'bolt-on' applications, which operate largely in isolation from the core of the OS. The difference is like comparing a person who transports a dangerous animal in a crate on the back of a utility vehicle, with one who transports that dangerous animal in the cab with them!


When you view a website you download code onto your system. If 'hidden' within that code is some which is malicious in nature, you want to be damn sure that it's kept isolated from the innermost workings of your machine. Nowadays, such 'hidden' code can be so sophisticated that it is triggered off by the fact that you've displayed a single pixel in an image on a web page!


Most of the 'net nasties' are advertising related, and this, zeroth, might go some way to explaining why your wife's system attracts more 'nasties' than yours. Her computing habits are doubtless different to yours, and they may expose her to more risk of infection than you experience. An advertisement might spark her curiousity, a 'close' button on an advertising box may be something else in disguise. There will definitely be differences in the places you visit and the way you interact with them.


So, how does this all affect me? Quite simply, the more prolific such rubbish is, the more careful I need to be myself, and the more time I need to spend on the problem. The more 'nasties' which are spread, and their increased sophistication, puts me at an ever increasing risk. And the more people who have systems which are a major invitation for such things, the more traffic there is in them. That slows down the whole blasted internet. That means that advertising borne intruders start to creep onto even the most careful of websites. Simply put, it acts to magnify the problem. Have a look at the traffic you see in our 'Viruses and Spyware' forum section, and on other sites around the internet. The vast majority of those problems are experienced by Internet Explorer users!


No, the answer is not to blame the person at the keyboard. They are simply working their computer. The answer is to encourage people to use the most secure products available. If, like yourself, someone has computing habits which do not result in intrusions, then fine. But for everyone else, and that is by far the vast majority of users, the answer is to use the most secure product available, and Internet Explorer is not it!

Change browsers, people, and do it NOW!

In the course of my employment I come across lots of people who use their machines for lots of purposes. Sometimes my work necessitates that I visit those 'seedy environs' myself, and to intentionally expose a system to their ravages. I can only conclude from my experiences though, that no matter WHAT a persons internet activity is, those people who use Firefox or similar are at much less risk than those who use Internet Explorer.

Zeroth, to expand a bit on what Catweazle said here, instead of closing popups with the X (which some use to 'execute'), right-click on the ad and select Close; this may help prevent some of the problems.

just another example of the ¨guild theory¨. These people think that just because they chose this as a profession, everybody else should roll over and pay them their pound of flesh. I´m not saying that their work should not be paid for. But to force someone to use a technician is getting away from the freedom and choice that the computer movement started with. It´s getting so bad that when you go out and pay for some software, after a time, when you ask for support, the manufacturer leads you down the garden support path on his web site or phone support page until you get to the point of asking the question and they say: ¨Please deposit $30 and we will answer your question¨. (couldn´t help commenting on this:rolleyes: )


Thanks, that´s enlightening and well put! Is there not a program out there that can examine key strokes and protect, for example, against clicking on a button disguised as something it´s not? It would seem to take only a comparison of what the website is about, what the buttom is supposed to do and the code hidden behind the button to keep us from making a mistake that could cost the computer´s integrity. (I realize I´m simplifying things but you get the point). If these guys can exploit us in the ways you have described, I would think that someone could make a lucrative enterprise out of an add-on that would protect us to some extent.


But what about stuff like Crunchie reported in his thread ¨Another exploit found in FireFox¨? I use FF on a couple of computers and this makes me feel as unsafe as you have made me feel about IE. What´s one to do...

I'd suggest you look into just what those 'exploits' are before getting all panicky. the last Firefox one i saw a lot of people carrying on about was one where if a website address could be 'spoofed' by replacing certain international characters with characters that looked similar, some small degree of access could be obtained. Hardly likely to affect you, and not really anything drastic, the way I read it.

Hardly comparable, either, to the risks faced by IE users

It'll get worse over time, as more people change browsers, but for the moment there are better choices by far than IE.

Well, thanks to dlh for the popup tip, I'll pass that on to my wife. And thanks a bunch for your comments catweazle, you've cleared up the murk somewhat for me!

My wife is one those users who can't change horses from what she's used to. I've tried to get her on FF but she says she doesn't like it. I personally can't see why. Then when I explain that there isn't much apparent difference, she says she can't get on some of her web sites. I called her on that one and she proved me wrong. She's a teacher and she goes on to a site that offers jobs in the system she's in. She's always checking it and applying for positions that pay better, but I checked her out on that and it's true. The web site won't let you on when you are using FF.

I realize I don't know a whole lot about browsers and what they can do, never got into the technical aspects of this, just a user. But if she can't get on, then that's that. I suppose I must do something about learning more about this when I have the time and inclination.

Oh, and I still can't paste anything into one of these messages while using FF, which is the only reason I'm still using IE while on Daniweb...(I get an error that I must edit my Mozilla config file to allow this action - I can´t find the config file anywhere in the help)

Again, thanks for this discussion, it's a good one...

I was considering installing FireFox until i read in the Langalist that it had twice as many fixes and updates as IE6. I also read that it is connected to AOL and that cinched it for me. If your interested the article is here. [url]http://www.informationweek.com/STORY/Showarticle.jhtml/?articleID=160900911

The config file can be accessed by going to about:config in Firefox. Don't ask me what half of that stuff does, though...

Well hell, now it isn't clickable.

huh? Type

about:config

in your address bar and hit enter.

[/QUOTE]Oh, and I still can't paste anything into one of these messages while using FF, which is the only reason I'm still using IE while on Daniweb...(I get an error that I must edit my Mozilla config file to allow this action - I can´t find the config file anywhere in the help)

Again, thanks for this discussion, it's a good one...[/QUOTE]

And you end up using 2 browers. lol that was my experience. and when you have a problem, which Browser is causing the problem,etc,etc,etc.