So does something like learning python instead of c+ using tools and taking the easy way out. Or are they just 2 different languages??

Well I'd argue there is no easy way out. It's not about learning Python, or learning C++ or java or whatever, that's the easy bit it's just syntax it doesn't make you a programmer. I can speek English, but that doesn't make me a poet, to be a poet I need to understand what makes the language what it is: nouns, verbs, adjectives. And then the techniques of rhyme, stanza etc... These are the key. So don't fret about programming languages when starting, just pick one and get going.

It's like I can scrawl a load of words on a page easy peasy, but getting a good grade from my teacher is a bit more tricky.

I can type a load of correct syntax in a source file, but getting a good grade from my compiler/interpreter is a bit more tricky.

See what I'm saying?

Very much so, and you did clearify. That they're both languages of equal integrity so just go for it and start learning. I found a tutorial for python that looks thorogh so Im gonna start there.

Thanks again for the info

I'd have to disagree here.

You could most certainly use a .NET language (C#/VB.NET/C++) and not use Visual Studio. In fact, I could fire up Notepad, write some C# code, save the file as myprogram.cs, and then feed it to csc.exe. and compile it into an executable form. If you want to learn the nitty-gritty of the language's syntax, you can do it without Visual Studio.

In that respect, it's not that different from say, learning C in a text editor and then compiling using gcc. In my opinion, though, using an IDE like Visual Studio when learning can yield a great benefit-- rather than focusing on the syntax so heavily, you could then focus on learning fundamental object oriented programming concepts. Such concepts illustrate the power of languages like C#,VB.NET, and Java, but many new programmers don't utilize the features, because they feel they're too difficult to grasp.

Well, for me the Visual Studio environment has been a good place to learn. I realize that I need to understand what's going on behind the scenes (kinda like writing HTML in notepad instead of using Frontpage) but the one good thing about using an IDE is the "instant gratification" that comes along with it. I took my first programming class over a decade ago and I could only take so much of writing code at the command prompt. I think that the .NET environment is nice because it's encouraging for new programmers... you can create something more quickly and see instant results. This is motivating to me and makes me want to do more and more. I still, however, plan to take the concept courses in data structures, etc. because the fundamentals are very important for all the reasons you guys have listed.

I wasn't just referring to the Editor when I said stay away from .NET from the get go. The general syntax and way of doing things is just way to easy and gives the misconception that all languages are that easy and will make you lazy... Doesn't work that way for everyone, but I've seen it happen too often.

Sadly for most people it ends up not learning the syntax but instead learning where all the buttons and wizards are located to generate code for them and then crying like babies when they end up having to write some code by hand because they don't know how.

Hmm.. this leads me to another question:

I'm debating between a degree in CIS or Software Engineering. The CIS provides more business courses, but is not as much into programming. I'm thinking of doing the CIS degree and taking programming courses at the community college along the way. I hear that CS degrees can be a little too dry and theory-based and I'm not sure how necessary it would be to go that route.

I cannot advise amongst courses as I have never done a computer science degree of any kind, I studied business and wish I hadn't. Here's some general advice you can take or leave.

Don't do the course you think you should do, do the one that most interests you, you are more likely to do well in it.

At degree level it is not SO important which one you do obviously it depends on your future plans somewhat, but they should also be aimed at what interests you, because again you are more likely to excel.

A GOOD grade is whats important and the quality of the college/university where you get it. Learning to teach yourself new things by researching and reading and experimenting are the main assets you take away with you from a degree course and are the skills you will use most in life thereafter. (as well as how to cook he he..)

Don't take this like I'm drilling you or anything, but can you please cite a specific example of the phenomena you're describing? Some main differences I've seen is a lack of required garbage collection, and the fact that the .NET framework allows you to write modules in one .NET language usable in another .NET language. C# is really similar to Java, and it's not that far off from C++ . In fact, the syntax is not all that different from Perl or PHP. If you can understand VB.NET, you could probably understand Python fairly well, or even Ruby.

I don't entirely think that the choice of language makes someone "lazy", neccesarily. I like the fact that I don't have to fool around with garbage collection, for instance-- that allows me to focus more on my programming logic, and not mundane housekeeping. What "way of doing things" makes a .NET language any different from another non-.NET language?

I'm genuinely curious. If anyone else wants to weigh in, I'd be really glad to hear. I'm open to any feedback that's presented.