hey jbennet, you should take a look at the thread i posted in the geek's lounge, it's about modded xbox's.

TheNNS: You say that they attack the largest OS not Bill himself... if you read my post that is ultimately what I meant... and I compounded that remark with the 50/50 market share... but you have to admit... with loads of movies and images that make Bill Gates out as the BORG and pics of him getting shot dead in the face is a CLEAR indication of peoples discontent for his deceptive business practices... you can not deny that.

Anyways, you do not think linux will get 50/50 from Microsoft any time soon?

Where are you man? You need to read more! Ubuntu is being sold on DELL ( baby steps YES ) but the point is not only will Linux getting better in terms of DESKTOP because people will write into DELL asking why does my computer not load my DVD or run my MP3 ( basic user friendly stuff that non-linux users typically have problems with that us Linux users find ways to make it work )... will get that user friendly problems FIXED because ubuntu comminity are proud of the fact their Distro is #1 and on DELL ...

Simply out Ubuntu already have amazing Forum support for below average linux users ( people that are not terminal users or programmers ) that coupled with DELL supplying all this data about what questions are most asked about why Ubuntu does not work 'out of the box' will only help the situation...

I say 10 years man Ubuntu will have no less than 10% DESKTOP of not more... It took Ubuntu only 3 years to go from nothing to being #1, sold on DELL and showing off BERYL Desktop Effects etc...

Yes I agree that Diversity is the way it should be ( in other words having as many distros as the free world wants.. ) But it gets to a point that if everyone is just re-inventing the WHEEL ( like a new package system for every distro ) is ridiculous. Personally I think apt-get is the best one so far since it can easily be ported to RPM DEB or any other types of packages...

That is besides my point... point is Ubuntu is taking the best of all the Distros and making a Distro to enter the Desktop. We already know Linux has the SERVER.

As far as viruses.. yes they are directed at the masses... but you can not say that most hackers dislike M$ Windows... and it IS part of the virus equation.

Also your comment about Windows having Security now as a Standard. This is absolutley WRONG. In fact in a recent article I read Vista uses annoying POP UP windows you must click to confirm you are Administrator before the command is executed... this pop up requires NO PASSWORD to be entered!!! It is point less.. also all of this security enhancements ( if that is what you want to call them ) where added in Vista... no in 98, not in 2000, no it XP.. only NOW.. and it is a layer that is on top of the running OS.. that means it is a FEATURE not a STANDARD... a standard meaning hard coded deep in the bowels of the Kernel ( like linux ) and in the firesystems etc etc... It is a feature not a standard.

In other words Vista is an unstable OS and every review I have read states that it is unstable...

>this pop up requires NO PASSWORD to be entered!!!

only if you are an administrator. you gotta use vista before you start ripping on it. i've been running vista on a laptop and have had no problems what so ever. and mac os x has the same security feature, if you do something that requires administrative priviliges it'll ask you for the password, same with linux, when installing something or changing a setting it'll prompt you for a password.

> Anyways, you do not think linux will get 50/50 from Microsoft any time soon?

software compatability. people want to run their programs with out any problems, and without having to confiure settings, wine is not the solution, as there are many problems with programs and it would be to hard for a regular user to do. linux is not ready for the world of every day users, they want something that they can use for every day things, music, movies, email, web, and yes linux has these capabilities, but they want itunes, quicktime, outlook, divx, windows media player, internet explorer. the only way i see linux having market share 50/50 is if ms goes bankrupt, which i don't see happening any where in the near future; or if ms is beat by another company like apple, which could happen, but not every one is ready to cough up $1200 for a computer when they can pay $600-800 for a decent hp or dell.

i don't see why people would hate bill gates other than jelocy over his money. his done great things, he's made foundations to benefit africans, he's giving away his money to charity.

>That is besides my point... point is Ubuntu is taking the best of all the Distros and making a Distro to enter the Desktop. We already know Linux has the SERVER .

and it should stay that way. imagine if linux owned the desktop and the server market. how many viruses for linux would there be? 400,000? if that was the case, there would be windows enthusiast out there, wanting other to use windows.

i love linux, but there are just problems with it being mainstream.
in my opinion this would be a perfect world
servers --> linux, unix
home users --> mac os x
business, school --> windows

The difference between you and me are probably pretty great.

1 - I worked at M$ on the Vista Firewall From June 2005 - June 2006 I found many security holes in the fire wall.. which I reported as bugs.. that was my job... however the deeper internals of the firewall are VERY easy to work around..

2 - The Security is a Layer which is added on top of the OS. You can turn OFF the annoying popups... remember that sudo only prompts you ONCE for a password per command. and if you want to run as root you can and you get no password prompts.

3 - I am a programmer. I have programmed games on Windows and apps and tools on Linux and manage 6 Linux servers some with 400+ days uptime.

4 - i am an avid reader of books, articles and lately been a journalist of sorts as well can coding. I try to stay fair. I think M$ made it possible for us all to have a 'PC in Every home'.. .NET is a great frame work. however I think Vista is built on code that is just not stable ...

They need a rewrite... Microsoft themselves have even commented that it is immpossible to make secure their OS because of all the layers of hacks that have made the security compromised in so many areas of the OS.

They need to rewrite... but that will never happen.

Also, the Mac OS is not really fair to hit apon for many reasons. First they do not have the market share ( like linux desktop ) to really want to be hacked. Second, mac innovated just about everthing GUI ( M$ copied it all... down to how their apps look and how the OS looks.. shiny windows and glimmering do dad's as well as the 'widgets'..

Anyhow, it is all opinion.

As i have said many times, i think microsoft needs to do what they did before, again.

Before it was Windows classic (DOS) and Windows NT. NT initially had many problems with compatibility but it was better.

NT was a whole new kernel but integrated well with existing GUIs, frameworks etc...

I think microsoft needs to do it again. I think they should make a new Windows family (lol windows NNT - New, New techonology), and possibly base the core on UNIX. IMHO it wouldnt be that hard for MS to port most of the existing windows stuff to a UNIX based core. The only reason things like WINE fail to do this is because large parts of the windowsa API are undocumented. Therefore, MS would be able to do it no problem.

Then users could use either vista era windows or the new era windows. There may be some compatibility issues but methinks that the stability and security of a completely rewritten windows would appeal to buisnesses, as most servers etc... run no third party software, just the standard IIS etc....

Also isnt the point of .NET thats its portable?

Therefore it should also be easy to port office etc...

I agree with jbennet, but ms will never EVER, do something like that. i hate how you guys just rip on ms because windows "is not secure".
there will never be a truly secure OS, because you can always find a loophole, an exploit, or new way of getting into the system.

and yes ms did build vista from scratch. originally based on windows server 2003, they relized it was to unstable and just built it from the ground up.
> 1 - I worked at M$ on the Vista Firewall From June 2005 - June 2006 I found many security holes in the fire wall.. which I reported as bugs.. that was my job... however the deeper internals of the firewall are VERY easy to work around..

sorry, but you apparently don't know that much about vista.

>2 - The Security is a Layer which is added on top of the OS. You can turn OFF the annoying popups... remember that sudo only prompts you ONCE for a password per command. and if you want to run as root you can and you get no password prompts.

once for every administrative task you do.
also, running as root isn't very safe. just like in vista, running as administrator is not recomended.

VIsta was built from SCRATCH you say? You mean from ZERO code to VISTA you say?

No... you are are wrong. Where is your proof? Vista is essentially NT 5.2

Maybe NT was stable as one point but since Vista got all these retarded 'security enhancements' has only made the OS unfriendly and just a little secure.

You hate people that bash M$ for security reasons? Ummm.... have you ever had to tell your Grandma or Mom that she needed to REINSTALL her Windows OS because the Spyware and MalWare took over her machine? Yes, I have bought so called 'Maleware removal tools' like Adware remover and some others and have even used 3rd party ones made by programmers and giving away malware/spyware fixes for free to the public... They still could not rid my Grandmas computer of all the virises!

And even if I was able to get all of them in just a few short days the spyware would return. I.E. has massive security holes via ActiveX and others...

That is why I complain about security.. also..

Did you know that 60% of all SPAM in the world comes from infested user machines ( Yes, windows is #1 so that makes Windows the User Machine sending the SPAM )... once a trojan is infected the Windows User machine ( like XP, NT, 2000, Vista whatever ) SPAM is being mailed.

Ever wonder why they can not seem to stop spam? goto www.spamhaus.org and read all about spam news.

An OS should secure our computers not allow spyware which makes you buy MORE software to remove software. Stop 60% of all spam. In an eccommerce world how safe are your credit cards when you buy from online?

You wonder WHY in the world are people so mean to M$ about security??? Just stop and think about it... I would rather have a crappy OS then have a decent one that is spying on me and contributing to spam and making my grandma spent more and more just to make her machine WORK .. simply work is all she asks.

Security is #1 and is not at M$.. they are all about it NOW.. but ... too late.

Vista IS NT 6

2k was NT5
XP was NT5.1 (XP is 85% win2000 and NT4 code btw)
Server 2003 AND xp x64 are NT 5.2

NT 6 = Vista and Longhorn Server

Yeah, i must say that no way was vista built from scratch, you got confused

what actually happened:

they started making vista but then it took so damn long that 2003 SP1 came out so they had to basically rewrite the alpha vista to fix all the flaws that SP1 had exposed in the 2003 code.

Then, after they had just done that, 2003 RC2 came out, so they had to rewrite nearly all of thier potential vista code to include the enhancements RC2 had braught along.

and planetxmail, vistas UAC popups, though annoying are exactly the same as you would get under Linux or OSX, so be quiet.

OK thank you for the details there.

Look I am not anti-vista. I would never install it. I stick with XP if I 'HAVE' to use Windows.

Microsoft employees A LOT of people and therefore feeds a lot of families. That is great!

However, we can not dismiss microsoft for what it has gave to computers. If anything Microsoft has taught us this... Do not allot a single company so much power else single CEO's chairmen and Executives that do not code anything get insanely rich.

Imagine a world where Open Free Software did NOT exist... imagine the POWER Microsoft would have. Complete control of not only the internet with IIS and IE but also of the Desktop and Server and say.. Nasa space missions needing 3D simulators for their planned space missions ( Linux does that job by the way )....

It is easy for us to now 'Give Microsoft a break' when we all see how short it comes with compared to Open Source.

Imagine a world of only one choice... Microsoft. It is easy for us to now start defending Microsoft after all the bashing it has gotten. We can start to feel sorry for the 'crumbling empire'. But, some only feel that way because of Linux and Open Source... let us not forget that.

Vista does not compare to Ubuntu and BERYL. Open Office is free.

Did you know that the minda / Bill Gates Charity foundation was formed to spend charities money in order to avoid the I.R.S. ? I do not feel sorry for all the BMW driving a-holes in Redmond that do not contribute a line of code yet take golfing trips and enjoy all their money and freedom while M$ outsources programmer jobs from India, Germany, Russia and China and Japan and... on and on...

Did you know most the Windows code was not written by Born Americans but rather other countries... Yet it is the White Executives walking away with all the money... sure a programmer gets paid $30-$100 / hr but that is after drilling their brains for weeks on end sometimes 80+ hour weeks while the Exec's get to play golf.

In the open source free world it dont work what way... you EARN your reputation by contributing actual WORK. Linus deserves his BMW and his house but he is in no way as rich as Bill Gates... yet Bill Gates quit coding Decades ago but he will be making Billions of Dollars even after he is DEAD!

Linus Torvalds as I type is hard at work online at conventions speaking writting code for the Kernel and he just invented 'GIT' a distributed Software Control Version System.

Would you rather live in a world where there are those so far 'above you' that they can buy the Moon and have money left to spare while the struggling beta testers, programmers are wasting away eye sight and sleep to make a couple hundred Executives rich while they sleep nicely after the GOLF game.... ?

That is why I hate Windows...

Now lets begin on why Windows is an unstable OS on a technical level...

Top to Bottom Left to Right... M$ has GOT to go away... or disperse ( I love the XBOX for example )...

Imagine a world where Open Free Software did NOT exist... imagine the POWER Microsoft would have. Complete control of not only the internet with IIS and IE but also of the Desktop and Server and say.. Nasa space missions needing 3D simulators for their planned space missions ( Linux does that job by the way )....

Um, wtf, i disagree. If linux did not exist MS would not have total power.

a) You are forgetting the fact that a huge number of mainframes like the ones nasa uses run UNIX
b) UNIX is also used by big business and the govt.
c) 20-25% of web servers run UNIX - thats the same as IIS does
d) 5 - 10% of desktop pcs run OSX

UNIX and OSX are not free and IMHO if linux did not exist then it would be a close battle between windows and UNIX on the server, and windows and OSX on the desktop

Don't forget Apple Mac, that isn't free is it?

As i mentioned, Apples OS is called OSX. Its not free

VIsta was built from SCRATCH you say? You mean from ZERO code to VISTA you say?

No... you are are wrong. Where is your proof? Vista is essentially NT 5.2

Maybe NT was stable as one point but since Vista got all these retarded 'security enhancements' has only made the OS unfriendly and just a little secure.

You hate people that bash M$ for security reasons? Ummm.... have you ever had to tell your Grandma or Mom that she needed to REINSTALL her Windows OS because the Spyware and MalWare took over her machine? Yes, I have bought so called 'Maleware removal tools' like Adware remover and some others and have even used 3rd party ones made by programmers and giving away malware/spyware fixes for free to the public... They still could not rid my Grandmas computer of all the virises!

And even if I was able to get all of them in just a few short days the spyware would return. I.E. has massive security holes via ActiveX and others...

That is why I complain about security.. also..

Did you know that 60% of all SPAM in the world comes from infested user machines ( Yes, windows is #1 so that makes Windows the User Machine sending the SPAM )... once a trojan is infected the Windows User machine ( like XP, NT, 2000, Vista whatever ) SPAM is being mailed.

Ever wonder why they can not seem to stop spam? goto www.spamhaus.org and read all about spam news.

An OS should secure our computers not allow spyware which makes you buy MORE software to remove software. Stop 60% of all spam. In an eccommerce world how safe are your credit cards when you buy from online?

You wonder WHY in the world are people so mean to M$ about security??? Just stop and think about it... I would rather have a crappy OS then have a decent one that is spying on me and contributing to spam and making my grandma spent more and more just to make her machine WORK .. simply work is all she asks.

Security is #1 and is not at M$.. they are all about it NOW.. but ... too late.

If you look at the reports, there was a point where the vista team decided to start over from scratch because it was not going to work. So yes it was built from scratch but based on NT technology.
I have never had to reinstalled windows on any on my machines because of viruses or spyware. people that are not careful click on ever link and download every smiley face get viruses and thus windows must be reinstall. i always try to teach people to ignore those stupid things.

You say IE has massive security holes? so does firefox and safari and opera, and every browser. The only reason firefox was "secure" was because very few people used it, but now it's a target for hackers as well as IE is.

Can you just please stop bashing MS? there are so many viruses for windows only because it's the main os. if linux was the main OS, then it too would have thousands of viruses and spyware, if mac os x was the main os, the same thing would happen.

well what's better for the world, for bill to pay taxes, which would be nothing compared to what he's giving to charity, or for him to actually help people in the world?

and you say you're not anti-vista, yet you hate ms, and windows and would never run vista?

i agree aero is nothing compared to beryl, but i found it hard to concentrate and actually work with a computer that had so much eye candy.

However, we can not dismiss microsoft for what it has gave to computers. If anything Microsoft has taught us this... Do not allot a single company so much power else single CEO's chairmen and Executives that do not code anything get insanely rich.

If it were only the coders who made money, there wouldn't be anyone to run the business.It is easy for us to now 'Give Microsoft a break' when we all see how short it comes with compared to Open Source. From of very skewed perspective, perhaps it comes up short. Many of Microsoft's products are of good quality. And several open-source projects have very annoying bugs as well.Vista does not compare to Ubuntu and BERYL. Open Office is free. So don't compare them. Personally, I find Aero much nicer to use. And Open Office hardly compares to MS Office.Did you know that the minda / Bill Gates Charity foundation was formed to spend charities money in order to avoid the I.R.S. ? I do not feel sorry for all the BMW driving a-holes in Redmond that do not contribute a line of code yet take golfing trips and enjoy all their money and freedom while M$ outsources programmer jobs from India, Germany, Russia and China and Japan and... on and on... Did you know that most people who have any money and any sense whatsoever use similar loopholes? Not that Bill would have to bat an eyebrow to pay taxes... I doubt he's moving down a tax bracket, and he's not keeping the money either way. Even then, he'd lose money giving it away than paying a portion of it for taxes. Oh, and the whole Bellevue-Redmond area is full of people driving BMWs, Mercedes, Porsches, etc...Did you know most the Windows code was not written by Born Americans but rather other countries... Yet it is the White Executives walking away with all the money... sure a programmer gets paid $30-$100 / hr but that is after drilling their brains for weeks on end sometimes 80+ hour weeks while the Exec's get to play golf. Is there a problem with using overseas talent to write code? Not like the US has a monopoly on smart people. And the programmers must be satisfied with their pay else they'd go elsewhere for work. As for the pay amount, you're right. The $75k+ starting salary isn't enough for the programmers (at least, that's what college grads with 0 experience get)...In the open source free world it dont work what way... you EARN your reputation by contributing actual WORK. Linus deserves his BMW and his house but he is in no way as rich as Bill Gates... yet Bill Gates quit coding Decades ago but he will be making Billions of Dollars even after he is DEAD! That was a choice Linus made. It was different from the one Bill made.That is why I hate Windows... You hate a product because people are making money off of it, huh? I guess you hate any other company that sells products while the execs are doing whatever... the car companies, the banks, the medical field, oil companies, etc...Now lets begin on why Windows is an unstable OS on a technical level... And then you didn't say anything. So I'll fill it in: mainly because of 3rd party code. Not Microsoft's code.

Even if Windows was a completely secure OS, we'd still have problems with exploits in other programs, or just ignorant users (phishing attacks, anyone?).

Well there will always be someone who can hack into anything anybody makes.
Just like bank vaults, where there's a will, there's a way.

nice comment Infraction, i completley agree.

Yes but look at the numbers there

c) 20-25% of web servers run UNIX - thats the same as IIS does
d) 5 - 10% of desktop pcs run OSX

that would mean that M$ would have 75 - 95% domination occording to your report.

Also, Microsoft tends to do business by 'assimulation' as in they try to change the rules to fix their own needs. Like trying to create their OWN http protocol that ONLY works on Windows systems.

That is where the danger lies... If M$ would play more fair and not try to monopolize everything ( yes because they CAN does not mean that SHOULD... but they do anyways.. )

That is why they do not deserve to continue to do so and why Open Source has come to the rescue. Money can buy you just about anything including even the government as well as large small coperations and of course individuals.

M$ users there money to buy out people and business. Take a look at current Microsoft business practice. They are now threathening to sue based on Patents that other companies are using that M$ says they created... if those companies do not PAY UP a protection fee than M$ sues... if they DO pay up they are not sued. This is COHERSION tactics...

Anyways... whatever.

the patent threats are bullshit patents like doible clicking

with Linux, everyone can contribute... when a security vulnerability is found...it can easily be patched...it is open source...if windows has a prob with its OS (cough *vista*) they are stuck with it...Linux can easily be changed or patched. so antiviruses arnt common cos they just are not nessesary...the OS itself is a good enough anti-virus/firewall/etc.