Graphics help: AGP x4 and x8 compatibility

[guymof]

I know very little about hardware and I was wondering if someone could tell me about what AGP is all about. I have a x4 slot and want to know whether x8s will work in it. Also, what does x4/x8 mean?
If you can help me with this, please could you also tell me a good suitable card that I can get for less than £50. Thank you so much for any help you can give me, as I'm so stupid.

Thanks
Moffat

[RGPHNX]

Hi guymof,
Nope........... a 8X card will not work in a 4X slot. sorry.. You run the rick of burning out the slot.. your card..or both.
RGPHNX

[Coconut Monkey]

Hi guymof, Nope........... a 8X card will not work in a 4X slot. sorry.. You run the rick of burning out the slot.. your card..or both. RGPHNX

Incorrect. An AGP8X cardwill work fine in an AGP4X slot.

[guymof]

Ok, thanks for your help, but could anyone else give me an opinion as I have two different views on the matter!
Thanks
guymof

[Coconut Monkey]

Well, let's look at the page for ATI's 9600 Pro chipset which utilises the AGP8X bus.
http://www.ati.com/products/radeon9600/radeon9600pro/specs.html

And then the 9800 chipset.
http://www.ati.com/products/radeon9800/radeon9800pro/specs.html

Both happy to run in an AGP4X slot (see requirements - Intel® Pentium® 4, AMD® Athlon® or higher with AGP 8X (0.8v), 4X (1.5V) or Universal AGP 3.0 bus configuration (8X/4X)).

[guymof]

Ok, thanks, can you recommend me a graphics card which I can get for about £50? I would prefer an Nvidia card.
Thanks for any help
guymof

[billenium_uk]

check out www.overclockers.co.uk for a selection of decenty cheap graphics cards.. nvidia or ati..

[belama]

On www.misco.co.uk for around £50 you could get this FX5700LE 128MB .

Is it for gaming? if yes, wouldnt recommend buying a less performing card than a 6600GT 128MB (£97).

In my opinion the Radeon X700 256MB (£68) has best value for performance. I would go for this unless I would find a better deal somewhere else.

[guymof]

Thanks Belama, do you think that the x700 would be good enough to run battlefield 2 etc? I don't want to spend too much
Thanks
guymof

[Catweazle]

If you want to have your system capable enough to play the latest and greatest (and upcoming) games I wouldn't settle for less thana 6600GT.

The display card is the most important component for games performance, and skimping on it can only end up with a system which will leave you disappointed. Lesser cards will cetainly RUN the games, but if you find yourself having to cut back on image quality just about from the get-go, then it's a real piss-off! In all seriousness, cutting corners elsewhere inyour life to scrape up the extra quids is something you won't regret, if it's at all possible.

[guymof]

Well I'd really rather not spend more than £100, I'm only 16! I've got to pay someone to fit it too! So you would say that the 128mb 6600GT is better than 256mb X700? How would the 6600 or 6600DT compare? I'd just like to say I'm really grateful to everyone who is helping me as I'm a computer idiot!
guymof

[belama]

What we are saying is that less than 6600GT or the least a x700 wouldnt be that great for games like Battlefield 2.

My personal opinion would really be the sapphire x700 256mb cuz ive had great experience with sapphire and there the extra 128mb for cheaper than the 6600GT 128mb (on misco).

On other parts, Catweazle prefers the 6600GT I think. It would give a little more perfromance but not much.

Buy what you think is better for you and your budget.

[guymof]

Well thanks for your advice mate, I'd be stuffed without it. I'll give it some thought. I wish I was more knowledgeable about computers!
guymof

[Catweazle]

My personal opinion would really be the sapphire x700 256mb cuz ive had great experience with sapphire and there the extra 128mb for cheaper than the 6600GT 128mb (on misco).

Lesson number one:GAME BOXES TELL LIES!

Read the 'requirements' on game boxes and you'll get the impression that 'more megabytes' matters. It doesn't!

For the very, very best display cards, which can play those games at very high screen resolutions and very high levels of filtering and texture detail, the extra megabytes of display memory will come into consideration for storing the large amount of data generated through working out those high details. These are the cards which are in the $AU800 and over price range (whatever that is in your currency) nit the sort of cards we're talking about here.

The cards in this partucular price range won't gain any extra benefit from having more than 128Mb of graphics memory. Sure, they can DISPLAY those extremely high details, but if you try to run a game with the graphics options turned up to the max it'll be like trying to watch a game that's being shown via a slide projector, it won't be smooth and fast game action!

[guymof]

OK, I think I'll have to splash out on the 6600GT when I can afford it. Thanks to everyone who has given me help, I really do appreciate it.
guymof

[goaliemike]

The memory on the card isnt important, its how fast it can move info on and off the cards memory, and how fast it can process graphics. But more room helps only if it can move info real fast trough it. But i have to agree that ive never seen many probleams with ATi compared to some ive seen with NVidia's stuff

[guymof]

I've currently got a GeForce 4 Ti4200 64mb card which has done me proud, so I have to admit I'm quite inclined to stick with NVidia
guymof

[Catweazle]

Oh heck! Please don't think I was trying to 'win an argument' with belama there. I was merely making the point that megabytes doesn't really matter much.

The X700 Pro is still an admirable mid range card, don't get me wrong. I just think the 6600GT is a better mid-range card.

A good way to make choices is to Google for reviews and benchmarks. Searches such as (replace xxxx with the card types/models):

xxxx xxxx comparison benchmark

xxxx benchmark review

are useful for uncovering detailed analyses of different card types and their relative performances. Spending some time reading through the various tech site reports that such a search uncovers is time well spent!

[RGPHNX]

Hi again all,
re: Incorrect. An AGP8X card will work fine in an AGP4X slot.
"Incorrect..." ???? really ?

OK, this question comes up so often in hardware forums that it's time to finally kill it off once & for all.

All 8X AGP cards are SUPPOSED TO BE backwardly compatible..but unfortunately.. they're often NOT backwardly compatible when it comes to matching the voltage on the card (and other specs) with those on the motherboard.

First, Will a AGP-8X video card physically fit into a AGP-4X PORT connector on the motherboard ?? (notice that it's an "AGP PORT connector" NOT an AGP BUS connector-this will be important later).

Here is a "keying" diagram of what the "major types" of AGP PORT connectors on the motherboard KIND OF look like. ( "major types" because there's AT LEAST 6 different "subtypes" which are all different according to voltage, pin usage etc.)

== =====
AGP-2X

========
AGP-4X

===== == < notice the "missing" connector pin
AGP-8X

So again..Will a AGP-8X video card physically fit into a AGP-4X PORT connector on the motherboard ?? Will it fit..even with the "missing" pin ? Sure.. it will "physically" fit.

What you have to understand is..
1) Motherboards and video adapters with AGP 8X support began shipping in late 2002. All AGP is a PORT rather than a bus, which means that it connects only two devices. AGP provides a direct unshared channel between the AGP video adapter and the system chipset/CPU (ie. the CPU is NOT "protected" from the videocard by other circuits that will "fry" first just in case they're incompatible.. and .. vice versa).
2) the electronic manufacturing standards for the AGP PORT connectors on different manufacturer's motherboards are NOT all the same.. that is..just because the port is "labeled" a 4X does NOT mean that the 4X PORT on one motherboard will perform/work the same as the 4X PORT on a different manufacturer's motherboard. In short, when the AGP PORT was "new" and being developed for several years afterward.. the manufacturers couldn't/ wouldn't agree on exactly how the wiring should go. They all wanted their own wiring "standard" to be the one used.
3) SO TODAY-Right now, theres over thirty different combinations of "standards" for which different AGP video adapter cards are THEORETICALLY electronically compatible with which AGP PORT motherboard connectors. That is.. THEORETICALLY your SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO plug in SOME (but not all) 8X AGP video cards into a SOME (but not all) 4X AGP PORT motherboard connectors and have it function/perform/work.....sometimes. (reference: "PC Hardware in a Nutshell" 2004- Publisher: O'Reilly; Chapter 15-Video Adapters, pg. 1).

In REALITY, ..at best.. the 8X AGP video card will only work at 4X speed OR only work with bugs & crashes OR not work at all.
In REALITY, ..at worst.. you will run the very real risk of damaging your video card OR your CPU/motherboard OR both.
That's one reason why "PLug and Play" compatibility (ie. "PnP") is often called "Plug and PRAY".

The video card manufacturers KNOW all this and that's why they STILL put (ie. hide) the information (ie. WARNING) deep inside their warranty info sheet.
Here's a typical warranty sheet from BFG technologies for the NVidea "GeForce 6" series.
----------------------
"BFG Tech Graphics Card Lifetime Warranty
BFG Technologies is proud to warrant the original purchaser of the graphics card included in this package ("Product") that the Product will be free from defects in material or workmanship for as long as the original purchaser owns the product, when given normal wear and proper usage. This warranty is valid if the product:

>> Was not damaged while being installed.

>> Was not damaged by software or hardware from a company or individual other than BFG Technologies or bymotherboard incompatibility.

>> Was operated in accordance with BFG Technologies specifications, instructions and any technical support directions.

>> Was not modified or damaged by overclocking, tampering, user error, accident, disaster, abuse, misuse, power supply, power application, alteration, repair, modification, a fix or replacement by someone other than BFG Technologies.

>> Third party products, such as motherboards and other system components using this Product are not be covered by this warranty.


BFG Technologies' liability under this warranty, or in connection with any other claim relating to the Products, is limited to the repair or at BFG Technologies option, the replacement of the portion of the Products which were defective in material or workmanship. This warranty does not apply to any software component.

You assume the risk of loss in transit and the returned Products shall be the sole property of BFG Technologies. BFG Technologies warrants the repaired or replaced Products will be free from defects in material or workmanship.

EXCEPT AS EXPRESSLY STATED ABOVE, BFG Technologies MAKES NO WARRANTY, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, WHETHER OF MERCHANTABILITY, NON-INFRINGEMENT OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, FITNESS FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR USE, OR OTHERWISE ON THE PRODUCTS, OR ANY PARTS OR TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE OR OTHER LABOR FURNISHED.

BFG Technologies reserves the right to inspect and verify the defectiveness of any product returned..."
-----------------------
You can see the BFG technologies' warranty info here:
http://www.bfgtech.com/tech_redux.html
-----------------------

Now,, In REALITY..if all the AGP PORT compatibility "standards" are all supposed to work perfectly and are all so perfectly safe so that you don't get your videocard or motherboard/CPU damaged when you plug a new one (even if it physically "fits") into just any motherboard.. then...
Why the H**L do you think that the videocard manufacturer's (& distributers like BFG technologies) today STILL say that "motherboard incompatibility" voids the warranty on your videocard ?? :rolleyes:

In addition, ...Why do you think the video card manufacturers (& distributers) REQUIRE you to tell them the make & model of your motherboard manufacturer BEFORE they will replace OR exchange your supposedly "defective" video card ???
Again, it's because they know that you can't always safely put a 8X video card into a 4X AGP slot without dammage.

I have personally removed several 8X AGP video cards (0.8v) that were installed into 4X AGP motherboard connector slots. Most of the cards refused to run at 8X speed when they were re-installed in an newer motherboard with a "true" 8X AGP PORT slot due to... failed memory modules or other onboard card circuit failures. Several of the older motherboards in which the 8X card had previously been installed also had CPU benchmark testing failures. Co-incidence ?..Don't think so !!!

Now, anybody who takes just any 8X AGP video card and slaps it into any make/model motherboard with EITHER a 4X OR a 8X motherboard connector without FIRST checking BOTH manufacturers (ie. the video card AND motherboard) specification sheets for compatibility ... has to just ask themselves one question..
DO YOU FEEL LUCKY .......?????
The video card manufacturer's just "LOVE" repeat business for $150-$300+ videocards that are not covered under the warranty. :D

So, what's the bottom line best advice ??
ALWAYS CHECK the manufacturer's compatibility spec sheets for BOTH the video card & the motherboard. Make sure your EXACT video card is mentioned by name (and version). If you have to, check serial numbers (or even "production" numbers).
Don't mix 4X AGP port connectors and 8X video cards.
So whats BETTER bottom line advice ??
PCI Express will most likely replace the AGP standard in the near future because of the problems discussed above.

You've been told the truth!
Enough said.
RGPHNX

PS- just in case anybody can't follow the technical details in this post.. here's a shorter & less technical version by another respected author. It's a little ambiguous however. It says...

"The bottomline is that your 8X video card can theoretically be safely TESTED in any 1.5V motherboard for compatibility. But if you know for a fact that your board only runs 1.5V AGP 2.0 spec and your 8X AGP 3.0 card runs only 0.8v spec, then the two should NOT be compatible one another. At the very least it will be unstable, if it runs at all."
You can read the entire article here:
http://www.neoseeker.com/Hardware/faqs/kb/10,63.html

[guymof]

Compatibility
The AGP 3.0 specification provides a smooth upgrade path to AGP 8X. The
mechanical bus specification remains the same. AGP 8X speeds and capabilities are
achieved by taking advantage of some previously unused pins, but in a manner that
facilitates the support of AGP 8X cards in existing AGP 2X and 4X systems, as well
as new systems that fully leverage the 8X interface. NVIDIA AGP 8X graphics
solutions will be able to detect the AGP level of the host system, and automatically
configure the AGP interface to run in 3.0 mode (at 4X or 8X speeds), or in 2.0
mode (at 2X or 4X speeds). Therefore, a new NVIDIA graphics solution will be
fully capable of 8X speeds, and will be completely compatible with 2X, 4X, and 8X
systems. The NVIDIA-based cards will automatically deliver the maximum speed
supported by the host system.

That came from NVidia's technical brief for AGP8x from PNY's website.
What do you make of that?
guymof