944,038 Members | Top Members by Rank

Ad:
You are currently viewing page 1 of this multi-page discussion thread
Nov 3rd, 2009
0

HTML Validation why bother?

Expand Post »
Hi
I am using Expression Web 2 and need to alter an existing website so as to display nicely on what I regard as a standard display size of 1024 x 768. It would have been better to start from scratch but it's a bit late for that now. I have an error "td tag not closed before this body tag closed". I couldn't find any open tags and decided to sumbit the page to the HTML validator. To cut a long story short it didn't accept the Doctype statement throwing 9 errors.

Just out of curiousity I decided to enter www.microsoft.com into the validator. Is this a record? The validator threw up 296 errors and 31 warnings!

Microsoft seem to be doing all right so why bother should we bother with the HTML validator?

Geoff
Last edited by ggeoff; Nov 3rd, 2009 at 3:53 pm.
Similar Threads
Reputation Points: 6
Solved Threads: 0
Junior Poster
ggeoff is offline Offline
169 posts
since Aug 2007
Nov 3rd, 2009
3
Re: HTML Validation why bother?
Here's what W3 says on the subject: http://validator.w3.org/docs/why.html

Personally, I'm not totally convinced that validating is that big of a deal; it's certainly a good gauge of how your site may perform in a multi browser environment, but if your HTML doesn't validate, and you're happy with the way your site is being rendered in all of your test cases, then it's probably ok.

All that being said, if a validator isn't recognizing your doctype, I'd think that's an indication that your site has a good chance of not rendering properly in some browsers...I'd double check your doctype against this chart: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/
Reputation Points: 19
Solved Threads: 12
Junior Poster in Training
scottloway is offline Offline
55 posts
since May 2008
Nov 3rd, 2009
2
Re: HTML Validation why bother?
I'm very big on valid coding myself but always feel that if your happy with your web sites errors and warnings then don't worry. However, if it didn't recognise your DOCTYPE then chances are that browsers might not and then place your website into "Quirks Mode" which is not a good thing. Its bad for displaying your site and also SEO can be effected. To be honest why don't you just copy/paste your code in a direct input? If the html document isn't working try that. It might just be a bug. What DOCTYPE are you using by the way? Some DOCTYPES aren't used anymore if its that old, theres a simple answer to that, change your DOCTYPE to a valid one then re-submit your file for validation. However it may cause more errors and warnings.

Goodluck...!
Last edited by Wrams; Nov 3rd, 2009 at 5:06 pm.
Reputation Points: 28
Solved Threads: 1
Newbie Poster
Wrams is offline Offline
22 posts
since Nov 2008
Nov 4th, 2009
0
Re: HTML Validation why bother?
Click to Expand / Collapse  Quote originally posted by scottloway ...
Here's what W3 says on the subject: http://validator.w3.org/docs/why.html

Personally, I'm not totally convinced that validating is that big of a deal; it's certainly a good gauge of how your site may perform in a multi browser environment, but if your HTML doesn't validate, and you're happy with the way your site is being rendered in all of your test cases, then it's probably ok.

All that being said, if a validator isn't recognizing your doctype, I'd think that's an indication that your site has a good chance of not rendering properly in some browsers...I'd double check your doctype against this chart: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/
Thanks for the tip scottloway

Geoff
Reputation Points: 6
Solved Threads: 0
Junior Poster
ggeoff is offline Offline
169 posts
since Aug 2007
Nov 4th, 2009
0
Re: HTML Validation why bother?
Click to Expand / Collapse  Quote originally posted by Wrams ...
I'm very big on valid coding myself but always feel that if your happy with your web sites errors and warnings then don't worry. However, if it didn't recognise your DOCTYPE then chances are that browsers might not and then place your website into "Quirks Mode" which is not a good thing. Its bad for displaying your site and also SEO can be effected. To be honest why don't you just copy/paste your code in a direct input? If the html document isn't working try that. It might just be a bug. What DOCTYPE are you using by the way? Some DOCTYPES aren't used anymore if its that old, theres a simple answer to that, change your DOCTYPE to a valid one then re-submit your file for validation. However it may cause more errors and warnings.

Goodluck...!
Thanks Wrams The HMTL statement was above the doctype. I created a blank document in Expression web selecting 4.01 transitional and presented that it worked fine
Geoff
Reputation Points: 6
Solved Threads: 0
Junior Poster
ggeoff is offline Offline
169 posts
since Aug 2007
Nov 4th, 2009
1
Re: HTML Validation why bother?
Glad to here it sorted your problem out. Any more help needed just post and I will be glad to assist.
Reputation Points: 28
Solved Threads: 1
Newbie Poster
Wrams is offline Offline
22 posts
since Nov 2008
Nov 6th, 2009
2
Re: HTML Validation why bother?
Click to Expand / Collapse  Quote originally posted by ggeoff ...
Hi
I am using Expression Web 2 and need to alter an existing website so as to display nicely on what I regard as a standard display size of 1024 x 768. It would have been better to start from scratch but it's a bit late for that now. I have an error "td tag not closed before this body tag closed". I couldn't find any open tags and decided to sumbit the page to the HTML validator. To cut a long story short it didn't accept the Doctype statement throwing 9 errors.

Just out of curiousity I decided to enter www.microsoft.com into the validator. Is this a record? The validator threw up 296 errors and 31 warnings!

Microsoft seem to be doing all right so why bother should we bother with the HTML validator?

Geoff
The HTML online validator can't tell where the arror ocurred exactly. Tries to narrow the posibility by selecting the first element the error triggered and the last one suffering it. In this case, the closing tag of the body element. This means that the error has safetly passed from element to another without causing a chain error reaction until it reached the end of the document. Therefore logically you should look from the head-tail direction to try and trace it. In fact it is most probably nothing, not even a missing closing tag, It migt be some mismatched quote or accidentaly deleted or forgoten qoute in some value most probably at that td element or right after it for that matter.
To some extend W3C validator is good for detecting malformed markup in time and before you've started messing up the styles to correct things that otherwise would not need fix, and which by the time you've corrected display forcedy in one browser it might just totally break it on the other because of different error recovery methods used by another and so on...

The only thing that matters is an answer to the question: does the page layout render properly and as intended on at least 3 major browers, or not? The other part is easy tweaks and commodity. Nothing else matters. Since W3C is not a browser, and w3c is not going to render those pages to you clients. A real life browsers are going to do that. They are the only standards a professional coder should follow. Since your client is not going to ask: "does your code validate at W3Cs", but "why is this table rendering halfway out of the window?!!" And believe me, I've seen so many pages passing validation completely, but rendering as an accident bare survivors.

Regards
Last edited by Troy III; Nov 6th, 2009 at 5:05 pm. Reason: salutation
Reputation Points: 120
Solved Threads: 61
Posting Pro
Troy III is offline Offline
511 posts
since Jun 2008
Nov 6th, 2009
1
Re: HTML Validation why bother?
Click to Expand / Collapse  Quote originally posted by Troy III ...
The HTML online validator can't tell where the arror ocurred exactly. Tries to narrow the posibility by selecting the first element the error triggered and the last one suffering it. In this case, the closing tag of the body element. This means that the error has safetly passed from element to another without causing a chain error reaction until it reached the end of the document. Therefore logically you should look from the head-tail direction to try and trace it. In fact it is most probably nothing, not even a missing closing tag, It migt be some mismatched quote or accidentaly deleted or forgoten qoute in some value most probably at that td element or right after it for that matter.
To some extend W3C validator is good for detecting malformed markup in time and before you've started messing up the styles to correct things that otherwise would not need fix, and which by the time you've corrected display forcedy in one browser it might just totally break it on the other because of different error recovery methods used by another and so on...

The only thing that matters is an answer to the question: does the page layout render properly and as intended on at least 3 major browers, or not? The other part is easy tweaks and commodity. Nothing else matters. Since W3C is not a browser, and w3c is not going to render those pages to you clients. A real life browsers are going to do that. They are the only standards a professional coder should follow. Since your client is not going to ask: "does your code validate at W3Cs", but "why is this table rendering halfway out of the window?!!" And believe me, I've seen so many pages passing validation completely, but rendering as an accident bare survivors.

Regards
Thanks Troy thats a very useful insight into the way we should respond to the validator. I was trapped into looking for an unclosed TD tag when the error was an unclosed Table tag!

Geoff
Reputation Points: 6
Solved Threads: 0
Junior Poster
ggeoff is offline Offline
169 posts
since Aug 2007
Nov 6th, 2009
2
Re: HTML Validation why bother?
Q&D validation,
run the site through http://www.browsershots.org in browsers for each OS
IF w3c html validation errors are egregious it will show blankscreens in some (or many, sometimes ya really mess up ) browsers
if the site displays right in the target browsers, the html/css errors dont matter so much

Standard test beds
http://websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/ Speed tweaks
http://validator.w3.org/ html check
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/ css check
http://demo.opera-mini.net/demo.html?www.yoursite.com handheld
http://www.browsershots.org other browsers

many problems (if present) will show
Reputation Points: 562
Solved Threads: 368
Posting Maven
almostbob is offline Offline
2,970 posts
since Jan 2009
Nov 7th, 2009
0
Re: HTML Validation why bother?
Thanks almostbob.
A very useful list! I copied them to Outlook Notes to make it easy to access the websites.
Reputation Points: 6
Solved Threads: 0
Junior Poster
ggeoff is offline Offline
169 posts
since Aug 2007

This thread is solved

Either the thread starter or a moderator has marked this thread as solved. You can most likely trust the responses and answers given. There is most likely no reason for any further responses to be posted here. If you have a related question, please start a new thread in this forum instead.

This thread is more than three months old

No one has posted to this discussion for at least three months. Please let old threads die and do not reply to them unless you feel you have something new and valuable to contribute that absolutely must be added to make the discussion complete. Otherwise, please start a new thread in this forum instead.
Message:
Previous Thread in HTML and CSS Forum Timeline: Height probem of a <div> inside a <div> !
Next Thread in HTML and CSS Forum Timeline: Pure CSS dropdown menu?





About Us | Contact Us | Advertise | Acceptable Use Policy
Forum Index | Build Custom RSS Feed


Follow us on Twitter


© 2011 DaniWeb® LLC