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    Just for the record: We're not the grammar-police here. If you mix up a "your" with a "you're", you won't get banned. We understand that a lot of our members do not have English as their primary language and that some (other) people might be dyslectic. Please don't start reporting … Read More

  • 2
    diafol 3,720   6 Years Ago

    Being a bit harsh gents? My Hindi and Urdu are absolutely woeful. Being fluent in a foreign language can be tough for many. I should know I've been trying to learn Italian for the last 10 years! If I posted to an Italian site and got a mouthful of abuse … Read More

  • If this were a forum about English grammer then I would agree with WaltP. This isn't, so I don't. The important thing on DaniWeb is that the poster expresses him/herself as clearly as possible, not whether he dotted all the is or crossed all the ts. I don't really care … Read More

  • 1
    diafol 3,720   6 Years Ago

    [B]1) English as First Language posters that have no clue what English words mean. 2) people that teach English that don't know what words to teach.[/B] This is too simplistic. English is not my first language, but I bet the standard of my language (English) is better than a few … Read More

  • 1

    Can I just point out, seeing as this is the community feedback forum, that members [B]will not[/B] be punished just because English is not their first language, or indeed they are crap at spelling or grammar. The official line is that txt speak, leet speak and the like are not … Read More

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From the member rules

Keep it Clear
-Do post in full-sentence English

Since you are on the thread already you can remind the user that this is the case.


Otherwise the punishment is being forced to interact with the site using a 1980 Motorola cell phone with a one line screen.

Edited by jonsca: n/a

3

Just for the record: We're not the grammar-police here. If you mix up a "your" with a "you're", you won't get banned. We understand that a lot of our members do not have English as their primary language and that some (other) people might be dyslectic. Please don't start reporting every post with a typo in it. The rule is :

Do post in full-sentence English
Do not write in all uppercase or use "leet", "txt" or "chatroom" speak

and is mainly intended to keep the script-kiddies away. So please only report a post when people use, TXT or L33T speak.

The example in this thread is an excellent example of a post which does need reporting, because it is clear that the poster intentionally misspelled every word, so thanks for reporting.

Votes + Comments
I HATE leet SPEAK. Please don't report this for CAPS
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Just for the record: We're not the grammar-police here. If you mix up a "your" with a "you're", you won't get banned. We understand that a lot of our members do not have English as their primary language and that some (other) people might be dyslectic.

Oh how I'd love to, though. If they live in an English-speaking country they should not have passed rudimentary English if they don't know the difference between
they're/their/there
than/then
its/it's (well, I'll give them that one)
etc.

I'd like to downvote them but even that feels harsh.

And of course, the omnipresent doubt! Who teaches English in India?

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And of course, the omnipresent doubt! Who teaches English in India?

This is indeed one of the greater universal mysteries

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Being a bit harsh gents? My Hindi and Urdu are absolutely woeful.
Being fluent in a foreign language can be tough for many. I should know I've been trying to learn Italian for the last 10 years! If I posted to an Italian site and got a mouthful of abuse for failing to conjugate a verb or two, I'd be pretty peeved. Deliberate mashing of English should be dealt with, harshly, even with nipple clamps, but berating learners is like kicking a sick puppy.

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Word
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Not being harsh. I'm simply talking about
1) English as First Language posters that have no clue what English words mean.
2) people that teach English that don't know what words to teach.

All others I give the benefit of the doubt -- unless they have no concept of punctuation at all and type 5 sentences at 1 or no SPACEs after . & ,
Them I don't like either. I'm certain their language has sentences.

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If this were a forum about English grammer then I would agree with WaltP. This isn't, so I don't. The important thing on DaniWeb is that the poster expresses him/herself as clearly as possible, not whether he dotted all the is or crossed all the ts. I don't really care if he uses "their" when "there" was intended.

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:)
You wrote what was on my mind
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1) English as First Language posters that have no clue what English words mean.
2) people that teach English that don't know what words to teach.

This is too simplistic. English is not my first language, but I bet the standard of my language (English) is better than a few born and bred in England. It doesn't mean I need to look down my nose at them. Likewise, I am fully aware that my grammar can be a little suspect at time, as I generally think in one language and put the pattern to work in English. It sometimes makes me sound as if I come from Sheep City. Not everybody gets the same breaks in life or the same life experiences. This can have a bearing on one's vocabulary and ways of expressing oneself.

With regard to the second point, 'people that teach don't know which words to teach'. Unless students study a Modern Foreign Language at post-high school level, I doubt very much whether they could be termed 'fluent'. In addition, 'use it or lose it' applies. I find that my Italian has severely worsened over the last 3 years or so. I can't remember tenses, bits of general vocab...

In many parts of the world, English is not taught, it doesn't even register in the top 5 languages some people need to master. I find it useful, but I can't say that I particularly enjoy conversing in it.

> If this were a forum about English grammer then I would agree with WaltP. This isn't, so I don't. The important thing on DaniWeb is that the poster expresses him/herself as clearly as possible, not whether he dotted all the is or crossed all the ts. I don't really care if he uses "their" when "there" was intended.

Couldn't agree more AD.

Edited by diafol: n/a

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I agree
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1) English as First Language posters that have no clue what English words mean.
2) people that teach English that don't know what words to teach.

You misunderstood my points...

This is too simplistic. English is not my first language, but I bet the standard of my language (English) is better than a few born and bred in England. It doesn't mean I need to look down my nose at them. Likewise, I am fully aware that my grammar can be a little suspect at time, as I generally think in one language and put the pattern to work in English. It sometimes makes me sound as if I come from Sheep City. Not everybody gets the same breaks in life or the same life experiences. This can have a bearing on one's vocabulary and ways of expressing oneself.

My point here is if you are a native English speaker and went through normal school, you should know the difference between there/their/they're and not misuse them constantly. If you are not, like you, a native English speaker, you would be expected to mix them up. I commend those that aren't native speakers who have a better grasp of English than us natives.

With regard to the second point, 'people that teach don't know which words to teach'. Unless students study a Modern Foreign Language at post-high school level, I doubt very much whether they could be termed 'fluent'. In addition, 'use it or lose it' applies. I find that my Italian has severely worsened over the last 3 years or so. I can't remember tenses, bits of general vocab...

Again, my point is for those people that are learning English, why are they taught words that are incorrect? What is it about the sub-continent that the people that teach English don't know the difference between question and doubt? The words are not interchangeable.

In many parts of the world, English is not taught, it doesn't even register in the top 5 languages some people need to master. I find it useful, but I can't say that I particularly enjoy conversing in it.

Immaterial. If you aren't taught English it doesn't matter whether you butcher the language or not...

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Are you sure that Indians are taught incorrect words? That's quite a supposition. Possibly, individuals using doubt and question as interchangeable have probably used Google translate or a dictionary to find the nearest word to their native one.

The words, in fact, are interchangeable in some circumstances, perhaps not syntactically, but they can convey the same meaning. OK, I'll stop being pedantic.

I just don't understand how you can detect if a poster is a native English speaker or not. And what counts as mangling in your book? I'm sure the word has different connotations for different people, as will the grade of mangling felt acceptable to a prestigious literary publication like Daniweb (tongue firmly in cheek).

I don't think my last point was immaterial. Your Department of Language would not, on the face of a post or two, be able to differentiate between a contributor who had the benefit of some English tuition and one who decided to learn it independently in his/her own time.

WRT they're/their/there, other homophones and the use of apostrophes - it's a bear that bugs me greatly. However, some pupils will never be able to grasp the nicities of written language, although they may speak it with all the eloquence and maturity of a bard.

Edited by diafol: n/a

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Are you sure that Indians are taught incorrect words? That's quite a supposition. Possibly, individuals using doubt and question as interchangeable have probably used Google translate or a dictionary to find the nearest word to their native one.

Search this site for the word doubt. If the rest of the post looks like a Google translation, I'll give you the point. You will see they don't use translation. And check the location of the people that use doubt. If it's only from 1 country (India) it's clear that they are being taught the wrong word. I doubt everyone that uses the wrong word is using the same dictionary. There are just too many people making the same mistake to be coincidence.

The words, in fact, are interchangeable in some circumstances, perhaps not syntactically, but they can convey the same meaning. OK, I'll stop being pedantic.

Maybe in some circumstances. "I question/doubt your expertise", "This is a questionable/doubtful solution" come to mind.
Can you justify the use of doubt in these posts?
i ve a doubt in sql.. want to display all dates between 2 dates..
I have a doubt regarding a function myfunc(int i,int j) function. The return value of this function is
i have one doubt in c# database connection
I have a doubt regarding the InputStream.read(byte[] b) function.
etc.
Check the location of the poster...

I just don't understand how you can detect if a poster is a native English speaker or not.

Really? Click on the Member Name. Look at the location. If they live in UK, USA, Australia, New Zealand, what language would you suppose is native? If the name is JamesSmith and he lives in Boston, he should know better than to use there in place of their.

I don't think my last point was immaterial.

Of course it is. You stated "In many parts of the world, English is not taught, it doesn't even register in the top 5 languages some people need to master." My point is native English Speakers should know the difference. I don't see how the fact that the Congo doesn't teach English makes it OK for someone growing up in Nebraska doesn't need to learn English properly. If you can explain that, do so. If not, my statement stands.

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Native English speaker: anybody can live anywhere (almost). Immigrants often change their names. I really can't see how your crystal ball works.

My point is native English Speakers should know the difference. I don't see how the fact that the Congo doesn't teach English makes it OK for someone growing up in Nebraska doesn't need to learn English properly. If you can explain that, do so. If not, my statement stands.

I never said that somebody not being able to speak English was an excuse for a native English speaker to have a poor grasp of it. That's ridiculous. I was referring to the linguistic ability of non-first language (English) speakers. I thought that was obvious, but I apologise if I didn't make myself clear.

WRT your point about native English speakers (my interpretation: knowing the nuances of homophones, syntax and the difference between colloquial and standard usage, etc.), nothing would please me more than to see each one transformed into Mr. or Ms. Grammar. Unfortunately, this will never happen. There are too many factors, some self-inflicted, some due to circumstance, some as a random act of Dog, that will ensure an everlasting divide. Some see this as an insult to their sensibilities, others affect a sense of superiority about it, while others, myself included, don't get too upset about it (I care greatly about standards, but I don't judge the individual).

Should a person with a poor grasp of written English be barred from public spaces, like DW? I have taught many dyslexics, who had trouble writing and typing in Welsh, English and any Modern Foreign Language that they studied. It would take 5 minutes to decipher a two sentence answer. I kid you not. However, these pupils, with support and encouragement went on to lead productive lives, many going on to study at university.

It should be noted that one of our most dedicated posters here on DW has a serious problem with spelling (I hope he doesn't mind me mentioning it), but he has managed to help thousands.

So, in conclusion and to reaffirm my opening volley in this thread, I think you're being too harsh.

Edited by diafol: n/a

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Er, don't you guys think this thread has starting to turn into a debate?

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Er, don't you guys think this thread has starting to turn into a debate?

Of course we do. Why do you ask? :icon_wink:


I'm not being harsh. I'm not advocating doing anything about it. I'm just saying people should take pride in their communication and if you are a native speaker of any language, use the language as properly as possible. IMO homophones are so easy to understand they should become a no-brainer. There's enough harder stuff going on in a language, especially English, that we pretty much need to turn a blind eye to. But lazyness is just lazyness.

Please point out anywhere in any of my posts I suggested/requested/considered:

... a person with a poor grasp of written English be barred from public spaces, like DW?

Native English speaker: anybody can live anywhere (almost). Immigrants often change their names. I really can't see how your crystal ball works.

Knowledge, age, time on forums, years of communication. Someday you'll get there. :icon_wink:

Edited by WaltP: n/a

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> Er, don't you guys think this thread has starting to turn into a debate?

Yes. Is that wrong? As long as it's polite and on topic...
Anyway, that was my last post. Doh! This is my last post. :)

Someday you'll get there.

Well, I glad you followed that with a smiley, it stopped it from being too condescending. :)

Edited by diafol: n/a

1

Can I just point out, seeing as this is the community feedback forum, that members will not be punished just because English is not their first language, or indeed they are crap at spelling or grammar. The official line is that txt speak, leet speak and the like are not allowed, and if a posting makes absolutely no sense at all due to the poor use of language then that will get dealt with on a case by case basis as well - but we will absolutely not stop people from getting help just because their spelling is poor.

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There's enough harder stuff going on in a language, especially English, that we pretty much need to turn a blind eye to. But lazyness is just lazyness.

I agree with WaltP here. I mean c'mon are these kids just lazy? The lazyness of using not knowing how to spell. I mean... I'm pretty sure it's easy enough to install a spell-checker plug-in into your web browser.

Just pure lazyness. Lazyness is what it is. They should be shot for their lazyness!

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I agree with WaltP here. I mean c'mon are these kids just lazy? The lazyness of using not knowing how to spell. I mean... I'm pretty sure it's easy enough to install a spell-checker plug-in into your web browser.

Just pure lazyness. Lazyness is what it is. They should be shot for their lazyness!

Not really laziness -- sometimes just a matter of putting the finger on the wrong key. Good suggestion about a spell checker though -- I need to look into that also :)

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I agree with WaltP here.

Me too, but only to a point. Legitimate difficulties of a non-native speaker are easy to spot and given appropriate slack. For example, things like doubt vs. question chafe, but are written off as a quirk of non-native speakers and mostly ignored.

Lazy and sloppy writing are also easy to spot, and especially in forums where precision is important, this style of writing (if it can be called a style) will severely affect how questions are answered. I assume that sloppy writers are also sloppy thinkers and problem solvers. In the forums I frequent, this changes how I'll interact with them or if I'll choose to help at all, since past experience has shown that helping such people tends to be unrewarding.

Even rule violations like "u" instead of "you" are often tolerated unless they're excessive. I doubt Walt expects everyone to write with perfection; all that's needed is evidence that people care about communicating well, and they're typically given the benefit of the doubt.

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I think that I also need to point out that a lot of non-native English speakers have learned English online by reading forums and participating in chat rooms. Therefore, not only might they be writing in broken English, but they might use 1337 speak but not even realize that it isn't proper English.

Back when I was first getting DaniWeb off the ground, and chatting on the IRCs and IM clients with a lot of other forum owners from around the world, I encountered this frequently. For example, they would use "u" instead of "you" and actually legitimately think that it was proper English, because they encountered it so much online and that's how they learned the English language.

For example, I used to talk to someone regularly who always capitalized the first word of a sentence, capitalized proper nouns, always used proper punctuation, etc., but they would also tend to use 1337 speak like "u" instead of "you" and also chat-like abbreviations for things. It got to the point where it was obvious that they were clearly trying to write properly that I just had to ask them why they were using so much chat-speak. It turned out they didn't even realize they were using non-English words!

Edited by Dani: Added anecdote

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I know AD, but people reading this may see moderators saying stuff and interpret that as DaniWeb policy. Hence the clarification.

Davy I think you may have misinterpreted the meaning of the debate. Nobody made any such suggestion.

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