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[Sturm]

Would it be possible to force members to at least click on a predefined list of threads before they post in that respective forum? I think this would really improve the quality of posts and save _ a lot_ of time for mods and such.

[Dani]

Members are directed towards the forum rules page twice times during the registration process (once via PM and once via email) in addition to being told to read the rules throughout the site and in all of the forum announcements. Additionally, everytime anyone receives any type of infraction or infraction warning, and anytime any moderation action is taken upon a post or thread (i.e. code tags were added by a mod, a thread was moved, etc) they receive a PM with a link to the forum rules telling them to reread them.

In other words, in the ten minutes it takes for a new user to register, activate their email address, and start a new thread in the C++ forum leaving out code tags in their post, they've been warned about using code tags once via email, once via PM, once in a forum announcement directly next to the 'new thread' button that they clicked on, and in a watermark behind the editor they typed in.

After the post is made, as soon as a moderator sees it, they'll receive another PM saying their post was edited because of code tags and to reread the forum rules along with yet another PM saying they received an infraction warning for violating the rules and to reread them. Each of these PMs, of course, links directly to the forum rules page.

Requiring them to visit an extra page during the registration process couldn't possibly help anymore than is already being done and would do nothing other than add an extra step and deter users from completing the registration process. New users would see it as nothing more than an extra pain-in-the-neck click they need to make with their mouse before they can get started.

[WaltP]

[[I]Hard-handed response[/I]]
If they've been told about the rules that many times, infract them!
[/Hard-handed response] :icon_twisted:

I know it's not nice, but that's how I'm feeling today.:icon_redface:

[Sturm]

You could make them take a quiz... ;-)

[mohanrobin]

It would be possible to force members to at least click on a predefined list of threads before they post in that respective forum. I think this would really improve the quality of posts and save _a lot_of time .

[Salem]

You have to wonder with so many "bullets" being fired at them how they manage to still get to the forum and still make a complete mess of it.

If they get an infraction (and a PM), they should not be allowed to post until they've read the PM and clicked on some "I acknowledge this infraction and will do better next time" link.

[WaltP]

I like it, Salem!

[Salem]

They're like the Terminator of forums :icon_biggrin:

Must
...
Post
...
Message
...

No matter what you throw at them, they just keep coming and coming until Dani finally gets them into the hydraulic press and they're history.

[Sturm]

>No matter what you throw at them, they just keep coming and coming until Dani finally gets them into the hydraulic press and they're history.

And when is this time going to come?

Never... You see those people as pesky nuiscances.

Dani sees them as, I dunno, customers? And every new customer has the potential to earn her more revenue. I.e. more ppl going to potentially click on ads etc.

That's why her to attitude to newbies will never change.

-There will never be an automatic script that detects when code tags are not used.
-There will not be any extra scripts directing newbies to the rules page.
-Anything that makes it more difficult for newbies to post, will be ignored no matter how much sense it makes.

It's all about quantity than quality. Get used to it. Plus it also gives the mods a sense of purpose. Awww :)

[Dani]

iamthwee, you're only half right :) I am a strong advocate for making it as easy and simple as possible for newbies to post. You're right about that.

I see every new member as a potential regular member, if given the chance. A lot of "newbies" have a lot to contribute, and might be very knowledgeable, but they are simply unfamiliar with online forum systems or with DaniWeb's overwhelming navigational structure. If we make it too difficult for them to get started, they're not going to take the time to figure it out, and that's a loss for us.

However, while an obvious goal for any full time job is to make money, you're wrong about how the money is made.

The majority of revenue is made off of repeat visitors. Therefore, it's in my best interests to keep regular members happy, which isn't necessarily to put "quantity over quality", as you say.

[Dani]

To add, not only do repeat visitors make up the majority of revenue, but I am completely aware that it is the regular members who make the heart of the community. The regular members are the ones who are devoted and dedicated to DaniWeb and without you guys, new users wouldn't have a reason to come in the first place.

Where our attitudes differ is that I just look at all new users to the site as potential regular members. Afterall, all of you guys started out with zero posts, some of you not too long ago.

Besides ... Look at Narue, for example, who doesn't use because she admits she's too lazy to :)[code=syntax] because she admits she's too lazy to :)

[Narue]

>I see every new member as a potential regular member, if given the chance.
I wonder what would happen if we took a month's worth of statistics on new members, then after another month see how many of those members are still active. Do the same after six months and then a year. I'd be willing to bet that the number of "potential regular members" who turn into "actual regular members" is vanishingly small compared to the number of "potential regular members" who turn into blundering idiots.

>A lot of "newbies" have a lot to contribute
...to the Posting Games forum.

>and might be very knowledgeable, but they are
>simply unfamiliar with online forum systems
I find it hard to believe that someone who is "very knowledgeable" in Daniweb's topicality would have trouble figuring out how to use the system. I'd feel that way even if we didn't inundate new members with instructions. :icon_rolleyes:

>or with DaniWeb's overwhelming navigational structure
Then the structure needs overhauling so that it's easier to use. I don't think it's overwhelming at all, nor do I think it's difficult to use. The problem isn't in your system, it's in your members' average intelligence (or lack thereof).

>Afterall, all of you guys started out with zero posts, some of you not too long ago.
I think you're confusing new members with troublesome new members. Wait, I was troublesome. Wait, I still am. I mean new members who don't use code tags. Yea, that's it. :)

But seriously, I love seeing a knowledgeable person show up, and so far I haven't seen any of them fail to use the forum as it was intended. Many of those people stay and become regulars. The ones that don't stay are also the ones who post in the wrong forum, don't use code tags, don't follow the rules, and generally interfere in the smooth operation of Daniweb.

>Besides ... Look at Narue, for example, who doesn't use
> because she admits she's too lazy to Partially too lazy (read this as I have trouble retraining my fingers to type it without pausing) and partially because the old basic code block looked better and was easier to cut and paste from than the highlighted code block. Now that the basic block is just the highlighted block without highlighting, there's little point in not using it.[code=syntax] because she admits she's too lazy to
Partially too lazy (read this as I have trouble retraining my fingers to type it without pausing) and partially because the old basic code block looked better and was easier to cut and paste from than the highlighted code block. Now that the basic block is just the highlighted block without highlighting, there's little point in not using it.

[Dani]

> I wonder what would happen if we took a month's worth of statistics on new members, then after another month see how many of those members are still active. Do the same after six months and then a year.

I've decided to take you up on your offer, Narue ...

New users who activated their accounts between September and November 2005 = 5,789
Users who registered between Sept and Nov 2005 and have between 1 and 5 posts = 1,748
Users who registered between Sept and Nov 2005 and became active community members (>= 25 posts) = 68

New users who activated their accounts between September and November 2006 = 18,383
Users who registered between Sept and Nov 2006 and have between 1 and 5 posts = 3,714
Users who registered between Sept and Nov 2006 and became active community members = 136

New users who activated their accounts between September and November 2007 = 27,153
Users who registered between Sept and the first half of Nov 2007 and have between 1 and 5 posts = 3,696
Users who registered between Sept and the first half of Nov 2007 and have already made 25+ posts = 44 so far, although we haven't exactly given them a long enough time period to prove themselves as "active" one way or another.

- - - - -

Number of unique posters in the Software Development category = 4,225
Number of unique posters in the Software Development category with 25+ posts = 67

... hmm, maybe my sql query was wrong? ;)

- - - - -

Do I agree there is a problem? Yes. Do I think something needs to be done about it? Yes. Do I think that requiring new members to jump through hoops to complete the registration process will accomplish anything? No.

I believe the problem lies in that the wrong crowd is being attracted to DaniWeb in the first place. Once they're here, I don't believe putting an extra alert to the rules page here or there, or making the registration process a pain in the neck, is going to miraculously flush out the students (who are desperate to get their assignments complete) and filter through all of the experienced programmers (who have less time to deal with an over-complicated registration process just to post and will just move on to the next site).

- - - - -

> I find it hard to believe that someone who is "very knowledgeable" in Daniweb's topicality would have trouble figuring out how to use the system.

You would be surprised. I don't remember who it was now, but there were some software dev moderators on DaniWeb who had never participated in a forum before DaniWeb, and it took awhile for them to learn how to use the system. And still there are even mods who have to ask how to do things every so often (with regards to using the ajax moderation tools, for example).

[Dani]

Here's the problem ... the reason you're not seeing advanced posts is because, even if the advanced people come to the site, they just see newbie posts, so they don't bother posting. And because only newbie posts are being made, that's all we're being indexed for in the search engines, drawing in more newbie posts. It's a viscious cycle.

If you want to see more advanced users, post content that will attract them. Post advanced questions yourselves. I think you might be surprised that there are some experienced programmers who read but never took the time to post because they haven't yet seen anything worthwhile to reply to.

[John A]

I believe the problem lies in that the wrong crowd is being attracted to DaniWeb in the first place. Once they're here, I don't believe putting an extra alert to the rules page here or there, or making the registration process a pain in the neck, is going to miraculously flush out the students (who are desperate to get their assignments complete) and filter through all of the experienced programmers (who have less time to deal with an over-complicated registration process just to post and will just move on to the next site).

So what are you going to do about it?

[Dani]

I am going to do what I do best ... spend money :twisted: I am going to launch an ad campaign targeted towards experienced programmers and figure out how to seed the forum with advanced-level questions which will draw the experienced crowd to stop lurking and start posting. The advanced topics will then get indexed in the search engines, google will start sending experienced visitors to DaniWeb, and it will go from there ... :)

[bobbyraw]

here is what need to be done, new user once registered MUST see a menu for solved thread for each forum category. if they bypass which they will, once they post in the forum a moderator should get a pm and contat and direct the newbie to the solution. or just make it easier for the forum to be navigate, at the head you have all the forum listed place a solved header and under it list all the forum with solved post.

[Dani]

Do you mean the link to only show solved threads?? Like here => http://www.daniweb.com/forums/solved8.html

[Ancient Dragon]

. if they bypass which they will, once they post in the forum a moderator should get a pm and contat .

I hate that idea! I don't want my PM inbox flooded with all those messages.

[Rashakil Fol]

Generally speaking, it seems to me like the level of discussion at most websites as they grow is monotonically decreasing. And there's nothing you can do about it. Also, the people who joined X months ago are always likely to be displeased, because X months ago, the site was the best site they could find for their purposes, so any change in the community is probably going to disappoint them. This is known as the regression effect; it's the same reason that people getting 97 or higher on their first exam are more likely to have a lower score on their second exam. The only way to avoid lowering the value of the site for any segment of the community is to prevent any changes, to prevent the growth of the website. Don't do that.

[bobbyraw]

@ dragon
its a way of life dragon how many of u actually read the ackowledgement to proceed with an install,
@ the queen
that link should be visible as a header that say "SOLVED" just like how u have snippets, blogs, coffee house. then when click on they can choose the category they need to search. then that list you pointed me to would be a list of all the solved post for that topic. or have Solved listed on the side under forum highlights

PS trhere is nothing you can do to stop the growth of the community, people will alawys want help and where u can get free help forom a knowledgable set of people you can't do wrong there...

just imagine the amount of money and time you sasve some one who comes here to get answer for free, and literally get a one on one with a specialist volunteers. this can't die IT CAN OLNY GET BIGGER

unless the queen decide to change it back to a dog site.

[Ancient Dragon]

@ dragon
its a way of life dragon

No it isn't. We don't do this for money -- we are all volunteers who work as mods for free. If my inbox was suddenly flooded with those PMs I would probably stop being a mod because I just don't have the time to respond to hundreds of PMs every day. That is as bad as the spam I get in my personal email box. I just mass-delete most of them, and that's probably what I'd do with all those PMs.

[bobbyraw]

ok so the queen should look into a system that direst all new registration to the solved section of the forum, i know how u feel Dragon, it's the same feeling i get when i log into the forum a see the exact same questions that was solved or is being worked on and i never look at those post. so i feel your pain. the queen have her work cut out for her.

[Dani]

I'm confused what only showing everyone solved threads by default would accomplish. There is a link at the bottom of every forum to only see solved threads should you wish, just as there is a link to only show unanswered threads.

[bobbyraw]

it's late thats y u are confused, give it time it will sink in, if each new user come to the site is directed to a section that show all community with solved threads we would not ahve the repitions in the forum, just like a knowledge base, for eg u go to dell to get help on a pc u select your make and model, then you sellect what category of help u want, u gettting the pic my queen,

[Dani]

The idea of a knowledge base is definitely why there is the availability to mark threads solved and only show solved threads. But a KB and a forum are two different things. Just directing new users to the KB version would undermine the whole point of an online community of ongoing discussions. Also, by only showing solved threads to everyone, no new threads would be seen, hence no more threads would ever get solved.

[bobbyraw]

see u missing the point, all i am trying to get throught to u is to give the new registered the option to see solved threads in each forum before they come to the forum and post the same thing that has been solved.

eg i come to daniwed and i want answer before i can post i have to register, before the registrations is completed i am shown 2 main thing, rules of engagement( i know thats not it, it just sound sweet) and chekc her before you post.

[jwenting]

Generally speaking, it seems to me like the level of discussion at most websites as they grow is monotonically decreasing. And there's nothing you can do about it.

Correct.
It's not just Daniweb, it's everywhere.
It's almost as if there are no new, experienced, people starting to post and people who do start to post over the last 2-3 years haven't gotten any more experienced.
What we see here (a flood of posts in extremely childlike manner that are essentially cries to do kids' homework for them, even if it's not literally homework) is repeated all over the place.
Just about the only forums where that's not the case are highly specialised support forums for single products targetted at advanced users, products inexperienced users wouldn't even know exist.

Also, the people who joined X months ago are always likely to be displeased, because X months ago, the site was the best site they could find for their purposes, so any change in the community is probably going to disappoint them.

We've already established that of the people who joined say 6 months ago 99% are no longer around. They've posted their single "do my homework for me" post, perhaps a few aggressive rants about not getting help quickly enough, and were never seen again.
Those that do stick around would be happy to see such kids stay away.

This is known as the regression effect; it's the same reason that people getting 97 or higher on their first exam are more likely to have a lower score on their second exam. The only way to avoid lowering the value of the site for any segment of the community is to prevent any changes, to prevent the growth of the website. Don't do that.

I wonder how many of the people who stick around for say 6 months as an active member (and active in answering questions, not just asking them) are still around after say 2 years.
That's the group you want to increase and keep happy...
And most of them won't care a thing about what you do to drive away the "do my homework for me" crowd, in fact we'd be more than happy to help kick them out ourselves.

[jwenting]

The idea of a knowledge base is definitely why there is the availability to mark threads solved and only show solved threads. But a KB and a forum are two different things. Just directing new users to the KB version would undermine the whole point of an online community of ongoing discussions. Also, by only showing solved threads to everyone, no new threads would be seen, hence no more threads would ever get solved.

That's not the idea. The idea is to force kids to first look at previously solved problems similar to their own before they make yet another request for "duh koduz" of a double linked list (for example) of which there have been thousands already, all replied to with the standard "search the forums, this has been answered last week".

That's one of the main problems, the vast majority of kids coming here to get help are too lazy to even search for an answer, let alone implement it themselves.
I'd guess that 90% of questions are of that kind, easily answerable by the kids themselves by doing 5 minutes of their own research. And that's the kind of question that annoys the hell out of your longterm members, who are exactly the members you want to keep happy as according to yourself they make you the most money.

Reduce that clutter and the higher quality, interesting, questions stand out more and get more responses. That in turn MAY attract more such interesting questions and more of the kind of people you do want to have.

If I were you I'd not mind driving away say half (if not more) of those 90% of new members who never post anything of value.
Even if that means you only get 1.000 new members a year instead of 50.000 (I don't have the real numbers, just an example), if those 1.000 stick around for an average of 4 month when those 50.000 stick around for an average of 2 days you already come out in front. And that without taking the positive effect on the happiness of your longtime members into account.