Must goverment be the center of our existence?

[Aia]

I like to read the signature of my fellow Daniloggers. Some are funny, some are inspiring, some just make me think... what in the world?

It is in the thinking part that I engaged when I read this morning the signature of one of our elderst posters. In Ancient Dragon two part signature it says:
"If the people cannot trust their government to do the job for which it exists - to protect them and to promote their common welfare - all else is lost."
Attributed to: Barack Obama
I don't follow the man Obama; I must assume he really said that. But definitely it has the ring of truth as something that would come out of the mouth of a politician.

"All else is lost?". Really?
Must government be the soul of our lives, that if they loose their perspective, everything else is lost?
When did we lose our perspective? Isn't it OURS, the responsibility to protect ourselves and to promote our own welfare?
Can we not exist outside the "all caring, all protecting hand" of government?
Just thinking aloud!. What an arrogant statement, to which I can only yell in silence: Stay away from my life!

No, I don't have any new utopia form of government in mind. I am just reasoning. Every one has the need of using the toilet in the trans course of the day. Toilets are necessary for comfort and hygiene. But as important as they are, we don't make them the center of our daily life, nor the center of our homes, regardless of how many times we go to it; unless we are SICK.
Pardon my vulgar analogy, if you will.

[Salem]

There's not a lot you can do when the vast majority of un-informed sheep can have their vote swayed with a tax cut here or a scandal there.

If you had to pass an exam to determine whether you were well-informed enough to vote, as opposed to making a random choice on the spot (or whatever your bias or bigotry led you to), then things might improve.

Like in parts of the US, it's whoever thumps the bible the hardest which wins. So much for SOCAS, the loonies are running the asylum.

Mind you, 50 more years of internet could make everyone realise that everyone is just a citizen of earth, and all this nationalistic crap will disappear. Nations are so 19th century, the whole idea just isn't up to solving some of the 21st century issues.

[jwenting]

Government should be as small and insignificant as possible, basically providing physical security and emergency services and little else.

[Aia]

>Mind you, 50 more years of internet could make everyone realize that everyone is just a citizen of earth, and all this nationalistic crap will disappear.

Minding I am,
It is attributed to Mark Twain the following:
"Traveling is the cure to prejudice"
Which I have the opportunity to experience in a personal level.

The Internet is providing that opportunity of social interaction which until now traveling had the monopoly of.
However, I can not help to wonder if that will continue as government gets its ugly nose into it; imposing regulations, taxes, spying on its users, and implementing all those wonderful, well intended means of controlling, in the name of security and protection to you and yours.

[GrimJack]

So -- what are the limits you see for government's role in the lives of its citizens?
Do you want to keep Social Security? How about Medicare?
What do you see as the relationship between the gov. and the military?
Would you keep OSHA? Would you keep the FDA? how about the USDA?
Who should be responsible for the Interstate system? The Post Office?
Should we allow CARNIVORE? Homeland Security? TSA?
Who should watch over our food supply? Our drug supply? Our water supply? Our air supply (or our Air Supply)?

[Dave Sinkula]

Mind you, 50 more years of internet could make everyone realise that everyone is just a citizen of earth, and all this nationalistic crap will disappear. Nations are so 19th century, the whole idea just isn't up to solving some of the 21st century issues.

Not quite a federalist, then?

[Dave Sinkula]

So -- what are the limits you see for government's role in the lives of its citizens?
Do you want to keep Social Security? How about Medicare?
What do you see as the relationship between the gov. and the military?
Would you keep OSHA? Would you keep the FDA? how about the USDA?
Who should be responsible for the Interstate system? The Post Office?
Should we allow CARNIVORE? Homeland Security? TSA?
Who should watch over our food supply? Our drug supply? Our water supply? Our air supply (or our Air Supply)?

A Rothbardian approach, not all of which I agree with. Whether 'tis 'not most' is TBD. I haven't finished it yet.

[jwenting]

Medicare is a disaster, OSHA is meddling with the rights of people, postal services are far more effecient and cheaper when run as private enterprises.
The drug supply is pretty much guaranteed by the Colombian cartels, the food supply by farmers. Air is as yet free, but I'm certain someone in government is planning to tax it.
DHS and TSA are some of the best examples of why increasing government power is a bad thing.
The government, like the military, should serve the people. Yet in reality it's usually the other way around.

[Aia]

So -- what are the limits you see for government's role in the lives of its citizens?
Do you want to keep Social Security? How about Medicare?
What do you see as the relationship between the gov. and the military?
Would you keep OSHA? Would you keep the FDA? how about the USDA?
Who should be responsible for the Interstate system? The Post Office?
Should we allow CARNIVORE? Homeland Security? TSA?
Who should watch over our food supply? Our drug supply? Our water supply? Our air supply (or our Air Supply)?

You forgot some more acronyms:
Why don't you ask some more questions with these?:
FBI the messengers of the ODJ
CIA
NCS
M16 or SIS
KGB
GESTAPO
SS or Schutzstaffel

I am sure that thousand more acronyms for the same services could be found in every nation where its citizen require government to take care of them.

[Aia]

>Air is as yet free, but I'm certain someone in government is planning to tax it.
You betcha! Kyoto Protocol
Commonly known by the buzz word, "Global Warming"

[jwenting]

yup. Of course they're not taxing the air we breathe, but are taxing the CO2 we exhale...

To meet Kyoto standards though is cheap. All we need to do is kill all enviroweenies. The CO2 emissions and hot air those idiots put out is enough to tip the scales :)

[GrimJack]

You forgot some more acronyms:
Why don't you ask some more questions with these?:
FBI the messengers of the ODJ
CIA
NCS
M16 or SIS
KGB
GESTAPO
SS or Schutzstaffel

I am sure that thousand more acronyms for the same services could be found in every nation where its citizen require government to take care of them.

Do you have a point? This is your response to my questions?

I am asking what limits you place on the role of government - I did not ask if you knew more acronyms that me. You started the thread and I am following up with a request for information. I could have asked are you an anarchist (which kind)? or are you propertarian? or are you a libertarian? but those are just labels and most people pick and choose rather than follow definitions down the line.

If you are not interested in and exchange of information, fine.

[Dave Sinkula]

So -- what are the limits you see for government's role in the lives of its citizens?
Do you want to keep Social Security? How about Medicare?
What do you see as the relationship between the gov. and the military?
Would you keep OSHA? Would you keep the FDA? how about the USDA?
Who should be responsible for the Interstate system? The Post Office?
Should we allow CARNIVORE? Homeland Security? TSA?
Who should watch over our food supply? Our drug supply? Our water supply? Our air supply (or our Air Supply)?

Not to intrude, but...

I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on the objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
-- James Madison

[lllllIllIlllI]

Government is a great, great thing. As much as it it annoying i think without it helping and 'being the centre of out existance' we all would be in a much worse place today. Governments are sort of like a buisness that has a monopoly on a whole place and can do with it whatever it pleases.
But even though they have a monopoly they dont do all bad. I think one thing that does happen is the news highlights the bad rather then focusing on what Good has happend so in some cases people will think what the media want them to think. The government being the center of out existance it important because even though we sometimes hate it to bits what would we do without it? Who would fix the roads? Who would keep public transport running? What about all the schools. I think that we Need a center of our existance to do those jobs so we dont have to. Sorry if you dont agree thats just my personal opinion

[hughv]

Maybe the question needs some re-phrasing?
"What should the role of government be."
I think the constitution is pretty specific:
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
There's a lot more detail, of course, but governments do have a useful and necessary function.
The current problems stem largely from an indifferent, uneducated electorate, a supine, venal congress and an incompetent president surrounded by advisers who are completely out of touch with us common folk.
Anarchy sucks, but we do have a history of revolution, and maybe it's time that the people take back the power.
I agree that the internet can help, but education would help even more.

[Ancient Dragon]

Must goverment be the center of our existence?
Yes, it is. Without government there would be just chaos. Government, from the tiny village to the federal government affects our every day lives. I can't think of a thing I do (yes, even in the privacy of my bedroom and bathroom) that isn't affected by some goverment in some way.

[Ancient Dragon]

It is in the thinking part that I engaged when I read this morning the signature of one of our elderst posters. In Ancient Dragon two part signature it says:

Wrong link. :)

[Aia]

Wrong link. :)

My apologies for the link, I am baffled by the mystery of how I got the wrong link, even when I previewed it for successful result before I posted.
Thankfully, most people knows who you are and have seen you around. ;)

[jwenting]

Must goverment be the center of our existence?
Yes, it is. Without government there would be just chaos. Government, from the tiny village to the federal government affects our every day lives. I can't think of a thing I do (yes, even in the privacy of my bedroom and bathroom) that isn't affected by some goverment in some way.

That doesn't answer the question...
You have just proven that the government IS the center of our existence. But you've not stated whether it should be...

[Ancient Dragon]

That doesn't answer the question...
You have just proven that the government IS the center of our existence. But you've not stated whether it should be...

I can't imagine life without the interference of government. It isn't really the center of my life, only is a large part. The only way government could not be such as huge part is if I lived on some remote island all by myself with no outside influence.

As for should it be? Yes. We need someone to do those things and provide those services that we can not do ourselves.

[Aia]

Sorry if you dont agree thats just my personal opinion

I am a believer that it's alright to disagree as long as neither party tries to impose its view by means of compulsion.
In fact if I wanted agreement from people, I would have gone down to the local church, instead of posting in the forum.

Maybe the question needs some re-phrasing?
"What should the role of government be."

You may not.
At least, not without hearing from me. The question doesn't need re-phrasing so you can
spin it to agree with whatever you wanted to say.

For all of you that feel the need to rush to aid, in the understanding for the need of government, by quickly pointing out the "wonderful" services we are receiving from it, and the "marvelous" programs WE all can benefit of, I would like to invite you to ponder about the parasitic nature that government incurs upon its citizenry.
I had always marveled at the similitude between virus and government. Both depend on the host for existence. Both will turn against the host for expansion, and propagation. Both will end killing the host if no intervention is applied to avoid expansion.

Furthermore, there's only two means for obtaining wealth. The method of production and voluntary exchange, the economic means or free market, and the other is the method of robbery by violence, or promise of violence.
Rhetoric question:
Which of these two does government fit in?

[GrimJack]

I am a believer that it's alright to disagree as long as neither party tries to impose its view by means of compulsion.
In fact if I wanted agreement from people, I would have gone down to the local church, instead of posting in the forum.

For all of you that feel the need to rush to aid, in the understanding for the need of government, by quickly pointing out the "wonderful" services we are receiving from it, and the "marvelous" programs WE all can benefit of, I would like to invite you to ponder about the parasitic nature that government incurs upon its citizenry.

You have not made a case for whether the government is parasitic or symbiotic. Sometimes the untrained can not tell the difference

I had always marveled at the similitude between virus and government. Both depend on the host for existence. Both will turn against the host for expansion, and propagation. Both will end killing the host if no intervention is applied to avoid expansion.

An amusing analogy but describes neither virii nor government except in the most general, out of focus way.

Furthermore, there's only two means for obtaining wealth. The method of production and voluntary exchange, the economic means or free market, and the other is the method of robbery by violence, or promise of violence.

This is called a 'false dichotomy' (sometimes 'false dilemma') leading to:

Rhetoric question:
Which of these two does government fit in?

an actual rhetorical argument - ie. ...[the refusal to] use demonstrable or tested truths, but resort to fallible opinions, popular perceptions, transient beliefs, chosen evidence or evidence at hand

[techbound]

Someone has to be in the center.

[Ancient Dragon]

Someone has to be in the center.

But it doesn't have to be the government -- it should be your family and friends.

[hughv]

"I had always marveled at the similitude between virus and government. Both depend on the host for existence. Both will turn against the host for expansion, and propagation. Both will end killing the host if no intervention is applied to avoid expansion."
Maybe you're a biologist? Ever heard of symbiosis?
You seem to be promoting Anarchy, or at least some very limited form of government, and that's fine, but theoretical arguments tend to be sophomoric and fail to deal with the reality of 300,000,000 or so citizens who need government of some kind.
We're getting the government we voted for. If it fails on many levels (and it does), get off your butt and do something about it.
Forget black and white. This is a very gray problem that takes dedication, education, time and experience to solve.
You're probably smart enough to be part of the solution , but I warn you, it's a tough problem and can be all-consuming.
We could start, of course, by electing Obama, who has the vision to realize we need substantive change.

[Ancient Dragon]

>>BS, PH, CIB
In your signature, what is CIB ? Here is a list of 43 possibilities

[hughv]

Combat Infantry Badge (Vietnam, 1967-'68)

[Aia]

>>BS, PH, CIB
In your signature, what is CIB ? Here is a list of 43 possibilities

With all due respect and without desire to draw enmity between you and I, Mr. Ancient Dragon.
Was that really necessary to post such an unrelated question to the topic of the thread or to where the discussion is leading too?
If you were so interested in it, could you have not send him a personal e-mail? Maybe an invitation to chat in IRC channel? Instead of derailing the conversation?

In the private forum of my mind I must cast a vote of no confidence in your ability to be a moderator at this time.

fail to deal with the reality of 300,000,000 or so citizens who need government of some kind.
We're getting the government we voted for. If it fails on many levels (and it does), get off your butt and do something about it.
[...]
We could start, of course, by electing Obama, who has the vision to realize we need substantive change.

While is it true I started this thread based on the allegedly comment of one of the presidential candidate hopeful of USA, I am quite sure I have been careful enough not to make mention to The United States of America government, nor to the Constitution of this our country.
Nevertheless, I would like to make sure that people understand that I wouldn't mind if references exclusively to USA are left a little bit outside, since I am not arrogant enough to believe every visitor to this site knows about our Constitution, nor they have a Constitution or need one.
Confident that the nature of government is such a constant regardless whether you live in a Monarchy, or a Republic or any other form under the sun, I do not want to exclude any one of participating in the conversation.
Can we keep it that way?
That said; mighty assumption on your part Mr. hughv to think people are not doing something about it, nor that the only real valid "something done" is to vote for the man named Barack.

[Aia]

In several ocations already as a rebuttal to my proposition that government is parasitic in nature, the words symbiotic and symbiosis have been thrown to the arena of discussion as a hint.

As a hit I decided to explain my position with a little of humor. The only risk is a laugh which is exempt of taxes so far. ( I don't expect you to laugh )

Two well known parasites meet at a bar. They start talking about their lives.
We join the conversation at the point where the tapeworm is telling the mosquito about his last host.

Tworm: ...And I told her that our relationship was a symbolic one...
Mosquito: Don't you mean symbiotic?
Tworm: Yeah, yeah. Symbiotic. That's it. That's what I told her; that thanks to me, she will never have to worry about being fat.
Mosquito: Hehe!, Well said, well said.
Tworm: Yeah, those were glorious days of joy. Too bad it didn't last.
Mosquito: Why?
Tworm: She died!, That's why I am hostless right now talking to you.
Mosquito: Oh, man, sorry to hear.
Tworm: <sniff>
Mosquito: That's the reason why I like to deal only with animal clients. It's a little bit more of a shaky relationship, you know, but the benefits outweigh the “cons”.
TapeWorm: Tell me more!
Mosquito: The other day, I was on the ear of this lovely cow drawing some blood, when the cow started to shake its ear and said:
Patched Cow: Shu!!!, Shu away!!, leave me alone!
Mosquito: “C'mon sweetheart” This is good for you. You need me to draw some blood from you every day so the blood will quickly be replaced and in that way it is more healthy blood for you.
PatchedCow: Shu!
Mosquito: You need me and I need you. It a wonderful symbiotic arrangement. In fact, do you see this big “S” I have here on my chess? It is a birth mark I like to believe it stands for Symbiotic.
Patched Cow: Wrong! It stands for Sucker. Shu away before I squash you.
Tape Worm: Hahaha! The lady had an attitude. Hey, say....could you introduce me to her?
Mosquito: Are you nuts? You are a parasite. No way!
Tape Worm: Who are you calling parasite? Sucker!!!.
Mosquito: < punches the tapeworm in its blind head>
At which point a fight breaks out and we leave the scene.

[GrimJack]

Wow, and you dissed AD for asking about someone about the initials in their post -- you on the other hand post a pointless (tasteless, heh,heh) joke about lawyers. I don't get it??