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It would seem that Aia is more comfortable acting as a troll in her own thread than in dealing with any substance. Didn't this start as a comment on a signature?
Governments are necessary (A necessary evil, if you will).
Some are better for their citizens than others. Some have mechanisms to allow peaceful. positive change and some must be overthrown by force.
I doubt very much that Aia (Or any of us) can survive without some form of government.
"Center of existence" is a little too much, but government is here to stay.
I respect your desire to keep this conversation more global, but the fact is that we are the most influential (And powerful) government in existence, and the example we set is paramount.
Electing a black man as president would be a good start to restoring our reputation,and would have more influence in the near future that just about anything else we could do.
By the way: I would bet a large sum that every visitor is aware of the Constitution, and has a at least some admiration of its content and intent.

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And an anecdotal footnote:
" I was in Europe the past two weeks and it was absolutely stunning. Everywhere I went, people wanted to speak to me about Obama. An old woman sweeping the street in Lisbon stopped me when she heard me speaking English and said: "American? Obama?" I could only shake my head and smile since I don't speak Portuguese. The doorman in Frankfurt, the waiter in Munich and the hotel receptionist in The Netherlands all bent my ear for about 10-15 minutes about how they are so looking forward to having Obama as President. Notice that they didn't say "your President" or "the American President" - it was simply "President". Everyone feels like they have a stake in this election. I hope the American public understands just how important it is that we get this one right.

Finally, at a medical conference a doctor from Angola came up to me with tears in his eyes and implored for me to vote for Obama. I told him that I was an Obama supporter and he thank me over and over. As he left, he said to me "Only in America. Only in America."

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/06/what-was-haynes.html#more

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yes, only in America would people willingly vote for a communist Muslim fanatic whose primary goal is to destroy the country he's aiming to be voted president of...

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Obama is not a "communist muslem"
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In view of the resent attacks to me, I am going to let the readers (especially the silent ones) to be my judges; and I won't respond to any of those comments.
After all, there's no adequate or possible defense against bigotry. And certainly, trying to defend, will result in a lost of focus.

An explanation to complement my previous satiric of the tape worm and the mosquito:

A symbiotic state is such, that two entities are engaged in; where both entities are interdependently connected for mutual benefit and existence. Where both give and both take. The need of each other is so great, that if one ceases to exist the other will do so.

With that in mind, allow me to apply the principle to government and see if it pass as a symbiotic one.

Government will die if people ceases to exist, but people will not expire if government stops to be.
People can give and do so, but government can not give back anything that it has not previously extracted from people.
No, definably, it doesn't pass.

On the contrary, the trend is that government will turn against its citizenry if a need arises. If most individuals of a nation will work for the government the nation would collapse. It could not sustain itself.
Is it not these enough reasons to think it is a parasitic state?

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yes, only in America would people willingly vote for a communist Muslim fanatic whose primary goal is to destroy the country he's aiming to be voted president of...

And only in the Neterlands would someone spread such visious false rhumors (lies). A man of your intelligence should be ashmend of yourself.

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Government will die if people ceases to exist, but people will not expire if government stops to be.

Prove it. There has never been a time in human history where there was no government wherever more than 2 people live together. You can even consider the basic family as a government of sorts -- mom & dad are the dictators and the children are the governed.

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Prove it. There has never been a time in human history where there was no government wherever more than 2 people live together. You can even consider the basic family as a government of sorts -- mom & dad are the dictators and the children are the governed.

well said.

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And only in the Neterlands would someone spread such visious false rhumors (lies). A man of your intelligence should be ashmend of yourself.

your bile proves my point... It takes a foreigner to see through the campaign promises and subterfuge of Osama bin Barak bin Laden ibn Hosseini.

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"Government will die if people ceases to exist, but people will not expire if government stops to be"
This is dead wrong. I doubt most people would survive very long without the services they've come to expect from government. Chop firewood? Troubleshoot an engine, or any appliance for that matter? Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but most people are almost totally incapable of surviving more than a few weeks without government services Sorry, Aia, you're living in some kind of fantasy land that hasn't existed since the days of the cave man.
As for the guy from the Netherlands, he's obviously an idiot, and a poster child for planned parenthood.

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There has never been a time in human history where there was no government wherever more than 2 people live together. You can even consider the basic family as a government of sorts -- mom & dad are the dictators and the children are the governed.

Admittedly, I never took any of the "soft science" courses in school, but I think the above statement is as close to my POV as I've read in this discussion so far.

I view government as the mechanism by which a set of rules governing relationships between two or more entities (an entity can be a person, a nation, a legal entitity such as a corporation, etc) can be enforced and I view politics as the negotiation between two or more entities to establish those rules.

When there is more than a small group of entities involved in negotiations it doesn't make sense that each act as individual agents in the negotiation or governance process. Therefore, representatives are selected (or imposed sometimes, admittedly) to represent the individual members of the group. Unfortunately, there is only one person I know of who has all the same views I have, and it isn't my spouse or any of my representatives. It doesn't matter though, because unless I want to be a hermit government will be at the center of my life (right next to love and work and a bunch of other things) and politics (which inevitably will include more than polite discourse) will be how that government is shaped. At the family level, as well as the formal national level, government should strive to optimize the positve potentials of each individual or it isn't doing it's job as well as it should.

Therefore, the initial quote in the OP works for me.

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your bile proves my point... It takes a foreigner to see through the campaign promises and subterfuge of Osama bin Barak bin Laden ibn Hosseini.

Wenting, why don't you just report to the nearest mental hospital and get it over with!

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nice communist reasoning
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your bile proves my point... It takes a foreigner to see through the campaign promises and subterfuge of Osama bin Barak bin Laden ibn Hosseini.

Wow, jwenting - you talking about someone else's bile is pretty funny. I have no proof but I think you live in your mother's basement and trolling is your entertainment. You respond with unsupportable diatribes (thankfully short, but diatribes nonetheless) to any who try to reason with you. Whenever anyone points out the errors in your thought processes, you ignore it and continue on. sometimes, I think you could fall into the 'sea of wisdom' and not get a drop on you.

I have been warned before that responding thoughtfully to you is a waste of time but I will conintue to do so when you actually post something that is not vile and could construed to be thoughtful or thought provoking.

<<it is easy to imagine you sitting in a damp basement, the only light emanating from 2 or 3 monitors, feverishly typing away; chortling to yourself, pleased with your own wit and intelligence, sigh -- good luck with that>>

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Wenting, why don't you just report to the nearest mental hospital and get it over with!

typical communist reasoning. Anyone who doesn't agree with them must be mentally ill...
Stalin would be proud of you, he locked up tens of thousands of people he didn't like in mental hospitals.

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I think we have beat the analogy 'horse' to death; 'In Serbian, a false analogy is likened to "comparing grandmothers and frogs" - in the US, "comparing apples and oranges". Analogies are only useful when they help carry the argument forward -- much less so if we can't agree on the parameters.

I am sorry you are feeling attacked. I hope you feel better soon.

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typical communist reasoning. Anyone who doesn't agree with them must be mentally ill...
Stalin would be proud of you, he locked up tens of thousands of people he didn't like in mental hospitals.

Typical running dog lackey logic - calling someone a communist just because they think you are mentally ill -- and dragging poor Joe into it, that's gotta be as bad dragging in Nazis and Adolf for a thread killer.

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Yes, goverment must be the center of our existence. Lawyers, tax collectors, religious operatives, generals, lobbyists, disaster victims, bankers all need something solid and central to lean on.

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yes, only in America would people willingly vote for a communist Muslim fanatic whose primary goal is to destroy the country he's aiming to be voted president of...

Oh wow, another Obama supporter! He does have a huge following, despite all the sick smear mail.

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no, but both Osama and McCain are Marxists...

Are you trying to make a point when you post stuff like this? Do you really believe it's true? Are quotes like the above and "Osama bin Barak bin Laden ibn Hosseini" intended to add to the discussion or just to get everyone mad? You can't possibly really believe Obama is a Communist or a Muslim.

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There are other terms, but for simplicity (much like lumping me in with neocons or such) popular generalizations are sometimes used. And, opinions vary.

Why do you always link to some outlandish blogger? Don't you have a mind of your own?

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Yes, of course. I just point where I care to rather than rehash better-worded material. Why do you post tripe with no substance?
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no, but both Osama and McCain are Marxists...

I thought that the slogan "There is a Marxist in every bush!" (no pun intended) went out with the nutty Senator from Wisconsin 50 years ago.

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Our government, our society, and our values whatever they are are instilled in us. We are all here co-existing and serving a purpose for us or for others or both. I must admit that Daniweb is pieced together with many intelligent, level headed people from all over the world and it is this energy that will keep propelling Daniweb further. Which is why I am still here. Daniweb is a sort of government with a Queen, Moderators, and Team Colleauges and this thread has brought out the best in us to bring our viewpoints to the table and allow us to exchange and keep exchanging. So if you ask me "Must government be the center of our existence?"? I say yes. My proof is this thread.

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Excellent! :)
I like your reasoning
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I thought that the slogan "There is a Marxist in every bush!" (no pun intended) went out with the nutty Senator from Wisconsin 50 years ago.

that senator was right in principle, though he may have overestimated the actual number of Marxists (or underestimated the number of bushes).

However, that's not the issue.
Both Obama and McCain have extremely strong communist agendas. Restriction of personal freedoms, increased government power over both people and the economy, etc. etc.

Both are enemies of the constitution, though McCain maybe not quite to the degree that Obama is.

Really the only difference between them is that McCain is a Christian and Obama a Muslim pretending to be a Christian.

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There you go again spreading all those lies.
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Really the only difference between them is that McCain is a Christian and Obama a Muslim pretending to be a Christian.

So, in your opinion all black men are muslems, and all muslems have to be hated because of 9/11 and the AQ. Why don't you admit it -- you are a racist.

This topic has been dead for over six months. Start a new discussion instead.
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