Evolution: Science vs. Religion - Page 3

[JJ___]

Too true, but you can't force religion on people. I'm not saying you're trying to, but it's just...the way you said it.

[Toulinwoek]

Perhaps the scientific community has changed its definition of "theory". When I was a student of science, the definition we were taught to use was what I just stated. This is a change in meaning that's convenient, but inexpedient at the same time. The word "verify" comes from a root word that means "truth", so how can something be verified and still not be considered true? Of course, if a theory can stand up to repeated testing and still hold up, perhaps science saw the need to distinguish between the old "educated guess" and something closer to what might be considered true enough for the average person. So they replaced "theory" with "hypothesis" and elevated the term "theory". I can live with that.
Concerning evolution, I don't feel the need to redefine words to invalidate something that just doesn't make sense to me; I simply say it doesn't make sense! While I don't have as much a problem with evolution in general as many religious folks, I don't believe it explains the origin of life on earth, nor can it. I think there a many, many things we as humans simply cannot figure out or know. If science wants to build hypotheses and through investigation feel they can at some point call them theories because the assumptions they make can't be logically or empirically repudiated, that's not going to get my ire up. It's just word usage to me. The bottom line is still that they still don't KNOW.
Nevertheless, I am fully persuaded that there will come a time when all of us, no matter what we believe or don't believe, will stand face-to-face with the undeniable truth of God. At that time it won't matter in the least what we have thought, assumed, figured out or believed. All that will matter is what God thinks.

[Catweazle]

While I don't have as much a problem with evolution in general as many religious folks, I don't believe it explains the origin of life on earth, nor can it.

errmmm....

Evolution doesn't purport to explain that. It is explain of the changes which ensued AFTER the origin of life on Earth. Evolution is a process of CHANGE, not an explanation of CREATION.

The people who taught you science placed far too much credibility upon its findings, and considered them to be incontestible truths. They are not. Nor are our religious beliefs. At some stage or other all our beliefs, whatever form they take, come down to a matter of trust and faith.

We can verify and support to the point where we accept and believe, but we cannot ever KNOW in the full sense of the word.

I sure hope you never rejected an understanding of evolution purely because it doesn't explain creation of life on Earth. That'd be rather silly. :D

[Toulinwoek]

I didn't say I rejected any understanding of evolution. I understand it perfectly (as it is presented) I just don't agree with much of it. I also said that evolution was taught to me as a THEORY, not as "incontestible truth", so your statement on that issue is based on a false premise, one I did not provide you.

In it's fullness, the original "theory" of evolution purported that ALL life evolved from a single-celled organism that resulted from some electro-chemical phenomena, not that it got here by some unknown means and then started changing. Such teaching must have come later. Apparently in the absence of a plethora of missing links, many have reduced it to something like, "Well, OK, maybe this can't explain everything, but...", and then it has been scaled back so that it doesn't seem to come so directly against the idea of God's Creation. This might well be because it's just as silly to believe the full theory as some feel believing in God is.

[Catweazle]

You got that all askew, I'm afraid. The original theories of Evolution as posited by Darwin and his contemporaries sought only to explain the origin of Species, not necessarily the origins of life itself. Theories which posit that life itself is the result of an electro-chemical reaction came much later, and are by no means universally accepted.

The 'fullness' that you speak of is a fantasy and a fallacy, and the process of 'scaling back' the theory to less stringently oppose the idea of 'God's Creation' exists only in your own head, I'm afraid.

Initially, Darwin's theory posited that evolution occurs purely by a process of 'natural selection'. Later study and understanding has also introduced the concept of 'mutation' into our understanding of the overall process. Evolution theory does not, and has never, suggested that evolution is an explanation for the initial origin of life.

It's your right to reject the theory, of course, but please don't 'explain' your rejection by using fallacious argument.

[Catweazle]

Sorry to intrude on the wonderful discussion in a jocular manner, but I just came across this rather nice comic look at efforts to deny 'science' in the name of 'religion'.

[img]http://images.ucomics.com/comics/td/2005/td050514.gif[/img]

I'm not suggesting that any 'creationists' here have gone to the extent depicted in that, of course :D

[benlobato]

He's tricky that way.

[Asif_NSU]

I think the origin of life is studied under the field called abio-genesis. Evolution just explains the bio-diversity. However, while doing my research I found that a lot of "critics of evolution" mixed up abiogenesis with evolution, and then tried to criticize evolution. I do not know if abiogenesis was ever a part of evolution or not, but it is certainly not now. In the modern theory of evolution nothing is said about the origin of life in the first place.

[jwenting]

Too true, but you can't force religion on people. I'm not saying you're trying to, but it's just...the way you said it.

Many religions are quite good at it actually.
Give people the choice to get religion or loose their heads and then be sure to let them know their dedication will be held to high standards constantly and you'll see how quickly they get religion.

The most fanatical warriors in the (Muslim) Ottoman empire were converted Christians for example.

[jwenting]

It always disappoints me when I see people who dont believe in "Almighty God" :sad: .

The problem with an almighty deity is that you can do anything you want and claim it's proper because if it wasn't the deity would have prevented it.

That's why I don't believe in them. If they existed for example they'd have prevented the people here who state such things/created don't exist from writing such. The very fact that such statements can be made proves that almighty deities don't exist :cheesy:

As Terry Pratchett states in his books (set in a world where the gods are real): if you want to make heretical remarks be sure to have a metal roof over your head to deflect the lightning bolts.

[Asif_NSU]

To Jwenting:
I do not know why God decided to let us do whatever we want to do according to our free-will . But saying that He doesn't intervene(Who knows? , He might be intervening in a way we dont realize) our life each and every moment is probably not a "good" reason to deny His existence. Even then the majority of the people deny His existence just because of this.

One thing I feel is that the definition and purpose of "good" and "bad" doesnt make sense if there were no God and no judgement day. I might just do whatever pleases me irrespective of what's good and what's bad.

By the way, I am just sharing my views along with everyone else here. I am not trying to force anyone to believe anything. Because at the end every one has a free-will.

[Vixey69]

Hi Asif,

Just filled in your questionnaire. Not quite sure how accurate my responses are because I come from a dual religion home.
Dad's Catholic, Mum is Buddhist. I had my "formal" up bringing as a Catholic..sunday school...etc etc But, I also studied Buddhism on my own.

Right now, my path is more of a spiritual one rather than a religious one. I have more inclinations towards Buddhism and Wicca. Yes I believe in evolution. And no I don't believe in a God as a person but rather as a Collective Force of the Universe.

Anyway, feel free to ask me further questions on this if you wish. Good luck! :)

[bjdea1]

The theory of evolution is a masterfully planned deception to let man forget about morals.

I mean when we look at buildings, skyscrapers, cars, boats - we know so obviously that someone designed and constructed them. Yet when we look at the human body and all its organs and intricate systems we say it all happened by chance. What a joke, its so obvious that we are intelligently designed - the human body is one of the most intelligently designed biological system around !!! Its just a pity man has such a "self love" complex and thinks he knows better.

Anyway I better not get started, but when I know somethings a lie it just makes me so angry. The theory of Evolution is the biggest most successful bunch of garbage lies that has been around for way too long. Anyway its up to each individual whether they want to believe it or not, its the sort of thing that exposes a person - who are the people who delight in deception and who are the people who seek the truth. Undoubtedly this is offensive to some - and I know many people will never change - but for those on the fence - consider this.

If you walked past an orange tree in an orchard and you saw under this tree 9 oranges on the ground laid out in a perfect square - 3 top row, 3 middle row, 3 bottom row. Would you walk past that and think to yourself - "Oh they must have dropped out of the tree and by chance fell on the ground like that" or would you think "I wonder who did that and why?". Thats the same with evolution - its saying that design (order) formed out of caos by pure chance and no intelligence was behind it - its so ridiculous its embarrassing !!

[bjdea1]

The problem with an almighty deity is that you can do anything you want and claim it's proper because if it wasn't the deity would have prevented it.

That's why I don't believe in them. If they existed for example they'd have prevented the people here who state such things/created don't exist from writing such. The very fact that such statements can be made proves that almighty deities don't exist :cheesy:

As Terry Pratchett states in his books (set in a world where the gods are real): if you want to make heretical remarks be sure to have a metal roof over your head to deflect the lightning bolts.

What if that Almightly deity is simply more intelligent than you and you just don't understand Him? You see just because you can't figure it all out (or make sense of it all) doesn't mean He doesn't exist. You're not Albert Einstien and nor am I - yet He believed in a single creator. Its all about perspective and understanding and sometimes admitting we really don't know sh*t is what helps us understand and find answers - a bit of humilty and faith.

[server_crash]

The theory of evolution is a masterfully planned deception to let man forget about morals.

I mean when we look at buildings, skyscrapers, cars, boats - we know so obviously that someone designed and constructed them. Yet when we look at the human body and all its organs and intricate systems we say it all happened by chance. What a joke, its so obvious that we are intelligently designed - the human body is one of the most intelligently designed biological system around !!! Its just a pity man has such a "self love" complex and thinks he knows better.

Anyway I better not get started, but when I know somethings a lie it just makes me so angry. The theory of Evolution is the biggest most successful bunch of garbage lies that has been around for way too long. Anyway its up to each individual whether they want to believe it or not, its the sort of thing that exposes a person - who are the people who delight in deception and who are the people who seek the truth. Undoubtedly this is offensive to some - and I know many people will never change - but for those on the fence - consider this.

If you walked past an orange tree in an orchard and you saw under this tree 9 oranges on the ground laid out in a perfect square - 3 top row, 3 middle row, 3 bottom row. Would you walk past that and think to yourself - "Oh they must have dropped out of the tree and by chance fell on the ground like that" or would you think "I wonder who did that and why?". Thats the same with evolution - its saying that design (order) formed out of caos by pure chance and no intelligence was behind it - its so ridiculous its embarrassing !!

Agree 110%. Nice post.

[gortonsfi]

What if that Almightly deity is simply more intelligent than you and you just don't understand Him?

HAHAHAHHAHAHA In some people's cases that's not much of a stretch!

[jwenting]

The theory of evolution is a masterfully planned deception to let man forget about morals.

I've always seen it the other way around.
Religion brings with it the option of explaining away the most horrific crimes as having been ordered to you by a god.
That's what brought the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the PLO suicide bombers, the wholesale slaughter of opponents by the Iranian ayatollahs.
And those are just a few examples, on a smaller scale many religious nutcases have committed heinous crimes and claimed their god made them do it.
In some cases they were even released on the basis of such testimony, and many more got more lenient sentences than they would have otherwise.

[bjdea1]

Your argument is not that well thought through. Think over what you're saying again and seriously ask yourself - is all religion actually from God? You see ultimately there are 2 religions in this world - Good and Evil. The rest is pretty much thrown in by man himself.
So the evil you see done in the name of religion is actually the result of twisted men who exploit people through religions they've made up themselves to achieve their own ends.

God revealed himself once to man and He does not change - but not all men accepted God and some of them went away and made up their own Gods and religions. So don't blame this mess on God - blame it on man who caused it.

The truth is ONE religion is right and the rest are wrong. One is actually God revealing himself to man - the rest are mens own creations. So what you have here again is a fight between 2 forces - Good and Evil. If you study all religions you will find that only one says that mankind is spiritually dead and cannot get to heaven by his own efforts. Only one says that man is helpless to save himself and needs God to save Him. You see this is what is so unique about Christianity - its the only religion that gives God the glory for mans restoration back to righteousness. Its God who saves us - its not us who work our way into heaven - that way no man can boast before God.
All the other religions say you can get to heaven (be righteous) by your own efforts - by trying to be good yourself - you can lump all these in the same (false) basket.

Oh and another thing - man finds all kinds of other excuses to kill his neigbor - not just religion - I mean consider racism, sexual discrimination, etc. This is problem with man - not God.

[gortonsfi]

I'll throw in some dittos with that. We really are just plain good at killing each other whatever the reason...

[jwenting]

In my opinion there are 2 possibilities:
1) ALL religions are partially right (and I don't mean all sects deriving from a single religion like Roman Catholics and Lutherans, they're different sectarian groups of Judaism as is Islam), but groups praying to different gods altogether like Judaism and Budhism. Their exclaiming that their god(s) are/is the only one(s) can be explained by seeing gods as basically being as self-centered as a top and denying the existence of their peers.

or 2) (and that's what I follow) that ALL religions are wrong and there are no gods in existence at all (at least not in the way that religions describe them).
Remember that to someone from the Roman era we would seem to posess godlike powers. With our machines we can kill at distances they couldn't even dream of, our medicine has miraculous powers of healing which would seem godlike at the beginning of the 20th century let alone the beginning of the 1st, etc. etc.
A species with time travel or interstellar travel would be more advanced still, them appearing to a society like the one in Judea during the Roman era (or earlier, when Judaism started) would make these people be seen as gods.
Not saying that's what happened but it's a possibility. Also remember that people tend to explain away things they don't understand not as being natural phenomena they don't understand (because not understanding is not a nice feeling) but as miracles showing the intervention of the gods. That's why gods over the centuries (as human understanding of nature increased) shifted from gods of natural phenomena (like raingods, sungods, etc.) towards more difficult to grasp concepts like pure "good" and "evil", which had before been just reward or punishment handed out by the gods in the form of a bad storm or a volcanic eruption.

[bjdea1]

I really like who God is - thats all I can say. I couldn't get through life without Him. To know Him is LIFE itself. Why people would even want to believe in evolution - I can't understand - seems pretty meaningless to me.

[Asif_NSU]

The truth is ONE religion is right and the rest are wrong. One is actually God revealing himself to man - the rest are mens own creations. So what you have here again is a fight between 2 forces - Good and Evil. If you study all religions you will find that only one says that mankind is spiritually dead and cannot get to heaven by his own efforts. Only one says that man is helpless to save himself and needs God to save Him. You see this is what is so unique about Christianity - its the only religion that gives God the glory for mans restoration back to righteousness. Its God who saves us - its not us who work our way into heaven - that way no man can boast before God.
All the other religions say you can get to heaven (be righteous) by your own efforts - by trying to be good yourself - you can lump all these in the same (false) basket.

This just shows your lack of knowledge about each and every religion other than your own.
First, on what basis did you conclude that "Only one says that man is helpless to save himself and needs God to save Him." Why do you think that only your religion says something like that. Do you know that we Muslims say our prayer FIVE times a day? Why do you think we pray? Since you do not have the slighest knowledge about any other relgion other than your own I will enlighten you with the answer. The basic reason behind our prayer is for the rememberence of God Almighty, we seek refuge from evil to Him. We believe that only God can save us from all sorts of evil. I cant advocate for other major religions of the world but they perhaps also have the same reason behind their prayer.

Second, Anyone can make strong statements about his/her religion. I could do the same in response to your post. But I decided not to start a battle over religions. Instead I would like to advise you not to talk about anything you yourself haven't studied. Clearly you haven't studied any other religion other than your own but were quick to make statments like, "If you study all religions you will find that only one says...".

I would not like to start a religious debate in this forum which will take us nowhere, but I felt that I must response to your statements.

[bjdea1]

Even though on the inside I find myself disagreeing with your post - none the less I desire to be decent to you Asif_NSU because its the right thing to do. When it comes to a discussion about facts, knowledge, etc I dare not argue with a muslim because I know how damaging and fruitless it can be. But at least you care about your beliefs enough to say something which is a good thing.

[server_crash]

This just shows your lack of knowledge about each and every religion other than your own.

I don't give a crap about other religions other than my own. Especially the muslim religion. What kind of religion teachers their followers to drive airplanes into buildings and kill thousands? Ohh wait, it was because they were promised something by their God, right? ppffffff what a bunch of crap. The only thing they got was to burn in hell.

[Real-tiner]

The word "theory" in normal usage means a guess or a hunch. But in science, a "theory" is a belief that has been verified by actual experimentation and/or observation. A guess or an attempt to explain a fact is called a hypothesis in science.

Actually, a theory is a hypothesis which is testable, but has NOT yet been verified. Once it has been verified, it is no longer a therory.

The real problem is that Evolution as the Origin of Species is not even a theory. It is not testable, because the only thing it can be tested against is random chance, (which is the same thing). So it is really the null hypothesis - the correct interpretation of reality ONLY IF nothing else is shown to be the cause of species.

[Real-tiner]

A religious group which seeks to not have things like evolution as allowable content in education is an extremist group.

Actually, the extremist group is the group which religiously holds that evolution is a true fact, when in fact it is not even a testable theory. It is a null hypothesis, which can be true only as long as nothing else is proved about the subject.

Put another way, they desparately want to believe in evolution, because otherwise, they would have to believe in God. This explains the fervor they display when someone wants to place evolution where it belongs -as an untestable null hypothesie.

[Real-tiner]

Now, it's been a long time since I studied my sciences, but doesn't the scientific method require that you first make a hypothesis and test it before forming a theory?

Wrong order! Here is the correct order:

First, you form a working hypothesis - an educated guess.

Second, you form the null hypothesis, the case where the special effect in your working hypothesis is absent (which is usually random chance).

Then you form a theory - a testable version of the working hypothesis.

Next, you design a test to distinguish the truth of the theory from the truth of the null hypothesis. Usually the test consists of varying one variable and observing other variables.

Now you perform an experiment which does the test you designed, and collect the results.

Next, you determine whether the results overwhelmingly support the theory or the null hypothesis. In the case of inconclusive results, the null hypothesis is assumed to still be true.

Finally, an indepedent and disinterested laboratory must verify your results. If your results support the theory, and the independent lab verifies your results, the theory ceases to be a theory and is accepted as scientific fact. If the independent laboratory refutes your results, or cannot reproduce them. Then more sciencde needs to be done to find out what was different between the two results and look for mistakes.

Notice that if the scientist is biased, his results are automatically suspect.

-----

In the case of Evolution, there are several problems:

The hypothesis is fine.

In finding the null hypothesis, we run into trouble. It is exactly the same as the working hypothesis.

We can't form a theory, because we can't develop a test to tell the two hypotheses apart.

We can't develop the test, because both hypotheses are the same. We don't have another hypothesis to test against.

We can't perform an experiment for two reasons: We don't have a test, and we can't travel back in time or alter the past. (Note that social sciences are inexact because active experiments are not allowed, its the same here)

Since there are no results, there is no way to make a determination.

Since there are no results, they can't be independently verified.

[Real-tiner]

I've always seen it the other way around.
Religion brings with it the option of explaining away the most horrific crimes as having been ordered to you by a god.
That's what brought the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the PLO suicide bombers, the wholesale slaughter of opponents by the Iranian ayatollahs.
And those are just a few examples, on a smaller scale many religious nutcases have committed heinous crimes and claimed their god made them do it.
In some cases they were even released on the basis of such testimony, and many more got more lenient sentences than they would have otherwise.

But couldn't it be the other way around? Those people were nuts because they went out trying to please God without first researching what really pleases God. In I Samuel 15, King Saul was so proud at all of the animals he had brought back from war to use for sacrifices. But he had disobeyed the Lord's instructions in order to do so. Samuel, in verse 22, says "To obey is better than sacrifice."

While the nutcases make the news and the news biases people away from religions, the people who are really obeying God do so in obscurity, because God tells them to do their good works in secret in such verses as Matthew 6:1-4 (which also shows why liberal models of the economy never work - they can't ever track this kind of activity).

[Catweazle]

I don't give a crap about other religions other than my own. Especially the muslim religion. What kind of religion teachers their followers to drive airplanes into buildings and kill thousands? Ohh wait, it was because they were promised something by their God, right? ppffffff what a bunch of crap. The only thing they got was to burn in hell.

None do. The bunch of crap was the contention that Islam teaches people to do that. I'd suggest you actually take the time to read Islamic texts before making stupid, unsubstantiable claims like that.

[Real-tiner]

Only one says that man is helpless to save himself and needs God to save Him. You see this is what is so unique about Christianity - its the only religion that gives God the glory for mans restoration back to righteousness. Its God who saves us - its not us who work our way into heaven - that way no man can boast before God.

Notice that all of the other religions have DO as their main theme - the religious person has to DO some kind of work to be acceptable. But one religions has DONE as its main theme - the work of making men acceptable is already DONE, and all each person has to do is to accept this gift.

The last words of Jesus on the cross (correctly translated): "It's DONE!"

All of the other religions are either philosophies created by men, or are plagiarized from selected parts of the true religion with a lot of other stuff thrown in by men.