None do. The bunch of crap was the contention that Islam teaches people to do that. I'd suggest you actually take the time to read Islamic texts before making stupid, unsubstantiable claims like that.
19 of the hijackers were muslim. But think what you want Mr. always right cultural history boy.
Asif, Server_crash, Islam, Christianity, and Judaism all pray to the same god. Islam and Christianity are both offshoots of Judaism in fact, with Islam being hundreds of years younger.
In fact, Islam is now (at an intellectual and spiritual level) where Christianity was during the Crusades (so the early to mid middle ages in Europe, around 700-800 years ago) and Judaism was somewhere around 2000-2500 years ago.
All 3 are heavily fractured, and suffer from severe infighting among these factions/sects (which makes them less dangerous to the outside world because a lot of effort is spent in killing each other which would otherwise be directed in joint efforts to kill people adhering to other (or no) religion.
Well jwenting, I believe in God and I dont want to kill you for believing differently. I respect your views, and in fact, enjoy reading about your views. Dont assume something like that about everybody.
All I want to say to the christians in here is - try not to directly attack people of different religions. While you may hold a strong view against their religion, its not wise to say things that directly attack another and are just going to provoke quarrels and give reason to unbelievers to slander all religion.
Also to a previous post by jwenting. No they don't all worship the same God. Christianity and Judaism do worship the same God (although the Jews didn't recognise Jesus as the Messiah) but Islam is most definately different. Islam is like an addon made up by a man later on down the track - after Christ. Personally I see Islam as divisive (creating confusion) and misleading (distracts away from Jesus) - because it takes from other religions and then adds (updates) on top of them. An addon that destroys the whole original message. I mean I could do the same and create a religion in the same way right now and claim that an Angel from God told me that I am the last of the last prophets and that the true message of God is completed through me. I could say that as the last of the last prophets only what I say is fully correct and that God told me to write the last parts of the Koran that were left out by Muhammad - and that this final revelation from God says that all Islam teaching while correct is missing one last bit - my bit. Then I could go on to make up whatever I wanted to.
You see the big difference between the way the Bible (Judaism and christianty) was written and the way the Koran (Islam) was wriiten is the Bible was written by many many different people over thousands of years all under the inspiration of the spirit of God. The Koran was received in alleged revelations from ONE man and scribed by others under Muhammads direction because Muhammad could neither read nor write himself. Now you tell me which has more credability - a book written soley from the revelations of ONE man and all in his lifetime or a book written from revelations of many many men over thousands of years (and it all fits together still regardless of the multiple authors and huge time gaps). Tell me is it easier for one man to LIE at one point in history or for many many men spread over thousands of years to all cooperate in a lie together?
Thats the difference between the 3 religions.
There should be and I believe there is a lot of doubt surrounding the revealtions of just one man. I don't believe the God of the Universe would leave His entire message in the hands of one individual. Having many of the same revelations coming from many individuals VALIDATES and CONFIRMS the message. I mean what happens if Muhammad was simply mad? There are no other prophets who can confirm Muhammads writings because he is the ONLY author of th eKoran - but the Bible has many many men (authors) who all agreed and their message was cohesive, complimenting each other. You see this proves and confirms the bible and that its above any one man. The Bible is put together by men who never knew each other - in some cases gaps of hundreds of years between them - yet the message still fits together. This proves its God who is the ulitmate author of the Bible.
Nicely put, bjdea1, but don't forget that a similar argument can be presented by those people who do not accept that Christ was, or is, the 'son of God'.
Forum discussions such as this one are all too easily waylaid by people who consider that any such discussion necessitates that they should 'stick up' for their particular Faith. When that happens, all too often comments become simply expressions of intolerance towards the views of others who have different beliefs. Such is not necessary, as a discussion like this should really only be scholarly or thoughful and considered discourse. There is no need for anyone to 'justify' their particular Faith in a forum discussion such as this, and it is unacceptable for people to expect that others need do that. DaniWeb is a global community, and the membership contains people from varied places and of varied Faiths. Here is not a suitable place to criticise or condemn others on the basis of their Faith.
Anyone who makes a statement to the effect of "I believe...." is perfectly justified in doing so. But by virtue of the fact that they have made such statement they should expect and accept that other people are going to disagree with their beliefs. But Faith is a personal thing, and if people here allow their comments to become, either explicitly or implicitly, "You should believe....." then they've stepped over the 'line'.
It frustrates me when I see people step over that 'line', because to date DaniWeb has been a place where open discussion has been courteous, friendly and lively. Should topics relating to Religion regularly become simply conflicts, we'd need to look at the possibility of disallowing such content. If discussion here is allowed to continue in a divisive manner, then such discussions do little but harm the sense of community which has been encouraged and nurtured here at DaniWeb.
Be careful with your comments, please people. No matter how strongly your personal conviction in your Faith may be, there are others who disagree with you. They also have the right to hold their own beliefs!
^ yes agreed. I should say "I believe" more often.
You're wrong bj. They DO pray to the same god. Jesus, in case you're wondering, is NOT god (despite being portrayed as such incorrectly by many American church groups).
If you think Jesus is god you're the one who is gravely wrong in your belief system.
You obviously also don't understand the first thing about Islam. Islam sees Jesus as second only to Muhammed as the greatest prophets of god (whom they call Allah and the Jews call Jahweh which Christians often pronounce as Jehovah).
Islam also recognises the bible as one of their holy books next to the q'uran and I think the torah as well.
I'd rather believe as being accurate the sayings of a single person penned down by a scribe during that person's life than the ramblings of a thousand people combined and translated (with all the resulting errors) dozens if not hundreds of years later after being passed on by word of mouth (with the resulting errors and interpretations).
As it is I don't hold either account to be factual or accurate. The bible to me reads like a soap opera more often than not and an allegorical story most of the rest of the time.
There are blatant inconsistencies between the books, if it's so accurate how do you explain those?
Hello all. I do admit that many Christians have said a lot of bad things about other religions. You can see the result of this in previous posts. The church has not been doing its job(unfortunatley). But I've been guilty of lashing out before.
Just to say it: I AM A CHRISTIAN!!!! Not ashamed of it!! Why? You might ask. Well lets just say I have found God's word through the Bible to be true in everyday life. I've seen healings and restorations and demons cast out of people and all that kind of stuff it says we're supposed to do all of the time in the Bible. I cannot feed you other people's stories, but just to share one of my own:
I was diagnosed with keratoconus, a rare eye disease, the scan was conclusive, but the eye doctor wanted me to come back the following week to get a different scan that also measured depth, to determine if she should do surgery or not. I got prayer at church and youth group, the time came around for the scan, and it was gone. i held in my hands two pictures of medical scans. The geometry of my eye had changed!!! I believe that deserves a Praise God!!! I believe in the power of the name of Jesus. Anybody have questions? Just ask!!
We could talk about evolution vs. creation, but it normally ends up in the same spot.
thanks for listening (or is it reading?)
slackwarebilly
;)
Most non-believers think people of religion are perfect and should never make mistakes. Just because you belong to a religion doesn't mean that you won't ever say stuff that will make people mad, or do things your not suppose to.
There are blatant inconsistencies between the books, if it's so accurate how do you explain those?
How can you make a broad claim such as that without providing even one example? 'Darwin's book "The Origin of Species" contradicts itself from beginning to end' How does one respond to an assertion like that? 'nuh-uh?'
The numerous and varied contradictions in the Bible have been the subject of extensive discussion, to the extent that providing links and/or examples is not really necessary for a comment about it to be meaningful. If you've not previously encountered them, a simple Google search for contradictions in the Bible will uncover a large amount of such discussion.
The contradictions contained within 'Origin of Species' are a somewhat different situation, however. Darwin never intended to present a definitive statement, there are gaps, holes and inconsistencies in the body of evidence he uses to draw conclusions from, and also in the lines of reasoning that he uses. But Darwin himself acknowledges those within the work. He's sought simply to demonstrate that species are not immutable, and posited a theory about the process by which such mutation occurs. He's not, within that work, presented his ideas as conclusively and irrefutably 'proven', and he has consistently qualified the conclusions he has drawn.
See.. that's my point. I've never read Origin of the Species in its entirety, and so i can't comment on any contradictions. The same goes with most people complaining about the Bible. People read 2 pages out of a 1500 page book then decide they have figured it all out without really knowing what they're talking about. To the degree where not even a single example can be given from their own minds without a google search.
You miss the point entirely. I never stated there that I was unable to provide examples from either of the works you mention, I stated that it was not necessary to meaningful discussion to do so.
The contention of my comment was that such comparisons and contrasts between the two works are irrelevent, because one is posited as a definitive statement, whilst the other is presented as a theory. The one asks for complete, total and exclusive acceptance, whilst the other provides a foundation upon which to build. Note there that I am referring to their relevences to the 'origins of species', which is all that Darwin addressed. Some of the conclusions drawn by Darwin have been since rejected, and alternative explanations or developments of explanations posited in their stead, by other researchers. That is a 'natural' progression from his work, in light of its very 'nature'.
Darwin never claimed to be 'God'! He never at any stage claimed to be omniscient.
Don't forget that you can do a google search and find plenty of sources that can prove the people who "think" there are contridictions in the bible" wrong.(not trying to contridict you cat)
This can go on and on, but it's not going to go anywhere. You can find sources and people who say one thing is correct and those people are able to back it up, and at the the same time you can find sources and people who can prove that wrong. (hope that made sense!). Anyways, if you read that there are inconsitencies in the bible you shouldn't take someones word for it. Read it and find out. If in your mind there are contridictions then you've proven it to yourself, but that doesn't mean someone else has read the bible and found no contridictions.
I am always an advocate of checking your sources, server_crash. In this instance, you don't need to check too far.
In Genesis I, God creates all the creatures of the Earth, and then creates Adam to hold dominion over them (Genesis 1:25 and Genesis 1:26) In Genesis II, however, God decides that Adam doesn't deserve to be lonely, so after he's created the fella, he proceeds to create all the animals, birds and fishies all over again, just to keep him company. (Genesis 2:18 and 2:19)
In the light of this discussion about Evolution and Creation, that's a rather large 'whoopsie', don't you think? I could go on and on, of course, but as I said the provision of such examples is a rather meaningless exercise, because the two works being compared and contrasted are not appropriate for such comparison.
I don't give a crap about other religions other than my own. Especially the muslim religion. What kind of religion teachers their followers to drive airplanes into buildings and kill thousands? Ohh wait, it was because they were promised something by their God, right? ppffffff what a bunch of crap. The only thing they got was to burn in hell.
If you'd taken the care to study other religions (and especially Islam in this case) you'd have found that Islam specifically prohibits suicide as well as the harming of Jews and Christians.
Sadly many influential Islamic leaders have political agendas (as do many religious leaders elsewhere) and can draw on a large base of people who like you don't study religious texts (even their own), instead taking the word of those leaders as being the will of god. In the Islamic world that's made worse by a large percentage of illiterate believers.
...can draw on a large base of people who like you don't study religious texts (even their own), instead taking the word of those leaders as being the will of god. In the Islamic world that's made worse by a large percentage of illiterate believers.
Oh, I think the predominately Christian areas of the world suffer more than their fair share of those as well, including my own country and the good ole "land of the free and the home of the brave". It's not simply a lack of literacy skills altogether which leaves people vulnerable to manipulation by those pushing agendas. Those people whose literacy skills don't extend too far down the path of developing skills at interpretation, research/verification and critical analysis are also very vulnerable
of course, but illiteracy makes the problem that much larger.
Someone who can read can read for himself where it says that one should not kill oneself after all, while someone who cannot has to rely on the words of a person in authority who tells him that killing oneself in order to kill heretics ensures a place in heaven.
Why people would even want to believe in evolution - I can't understand - seems pretty meaningless to me.
If you were a student of biology or earth and life sciences, if you had been doing research on the fossil records, if you had seen all the evidence supporting evolution closely and carefully rather than just learning about evolution from some text book you probably would have said the total opposite. The Darwinian theory of evolution has withstood the test of time and thousands of scientific experiments; nothing has disproved it since Darwin first proposed it more than 150 years ago. Many scientific advances, in a range of scientific disciplines including physics, geology, chemistry, and molecular biology, have supported, refined, and expanded evolutionary theory far beyond anything Darwin could have imagined. Now the vast majority of scientists accept the theory of evolution.
I myself neither reject nor accept evolution without doubts. I think to make a claim about whether evolution is right or wrong you need to have practical understanding of the facts that has been explained by the theory of evolution. I just learned about evolution in theory(from writtten materials). So I simply cannot say it's wrong or it's right. At my current level of
knowledge to believe in evolution I need to put some element of faith in the scientists.
None do. The bunch of crap was the contention that Islam teaches people to do that. I'd suggest you actually take the time to read Islamic texts before making stupid, unsubstantiable claims like that.
Thank you catweazle. I dont need to add anything more to that.
Also to a previous post by jwenting. No they don't all worship the same God. Christianity and Judaism do worship the same God (although the Jews didn't recognise Jesus as the Messiah) but Islam is most definately different. Islam is like an addon made up by a man later on down the track - after Christ. Personally I see Islam as divisive (creating confusion) and misleading
(distracts away from Jesus) - because it takes from other religions and then adds (updates) on top of them. An addon that destroys the whole original message.
Well, that's your point of view. Let me share Islam's point of view. We, Muslims, believe that it's not just 1400 years ago when God decided to send revealations/saviours. God has send us guides since the time of Adam. In Islam Adam is one of the prophets so Adam worshipped the same God that we Muslims do. Over time different groups and nations have been formed. God sent prophets to all nations and groups whenever they went astray or forgot/changed/left the original guidance God had given them. Solomon, Abraham, Moses, Jesus all were prophets of God. However, God selected different rules and laws for different groups. The laws provided for Adam are not the same as the laws given to Abraham. The fundamental message is same that there is one God. But God refined, changed the rules to govern our life over time so that we humans could adapt to the changing surroundings around us. So the rules given to Adam cannot remain same for Abraham or for Moses. Moses and his revealations were only for the children of Israel. We respect the revealations sent to Moses and Jesus, and we have no doubts that they were indeed the prophets of God. However we reject to follow their revealations for several reasons: the revealations sent to them has been changed due to human intervention and thus contains errors and things falsely attributed to God; God has sent his complete message through Prophet Muhammad in the form of Quran. This final revealtion to human-kind is complete as is, it's not an add-on. Addition to something false doesnt make sense. God restated everything in the correct form within Quran, and also given us all the rules that would be enough to live a life that He wants us to live. This is a message not just to the people of Arab at that time. But this is the last revealation sent for the WHOLE OF MANKIND. Quran is not the private property of Muslims. It's here for All of Mankind.
As such Islam is a COMPLETE CODE of life covering each and every aspect of human-life. It's not an update in the sense that it builds on Torah and Bible. We, Muslims, do not have to draw laws and rules of our life from Torah or Bible. We live by the rules stated in Quran.
The conclusion is that we Muslims worship the God who has created this whole universe and everything in it. We worship the same God who created Adam.This is the same God who sent Moses, Jesus and Muhammad as His prophets. So how did you conclude we dont pray to the same God? Yes we do not believe that Jesus was a God, we dont set up any human or any other force as gods beside the Almighty God. If you think Jesus is a god then we dont worship your god.
I mean I could do the same and create a religion in the same way right now and claim that an Angel from God told me that I am the last of the last prophets and that the true message of God is completed through me. I could say that as the last of the last prophets only what I say is fully correct and that God told me to write the last parts of the Koran that were left out by
Muhammad - and that this final revelation from God says that all Islam teaching while correct is missing one last bit - my bit. Then I could go on to make up whatever I wanted to.
How you wish! God within Quran has declared that prophet Muhammed is the last prophet. So I guess you are late, only if you were born before prophet Muhammed. One of the challenges made by God to the whole human-kind is to produce a book like Quran. See if you can get up to the challenge. Good luck on that. Also as I said before, Islam is not an add on. It's complete as is. I wonder from where you draw your ideas about Islam. It shows your lack of knowledge about Islam like a gaping hollow. I also don't understand what you meant by, "last of the last prophets".What kind of phrase is that?
...the Bible was written by many many different people over thousands of years...
Yup, that's why it contains so many inconsistency due to human manipulation. That's why it contradicts with science in so many places. That's how God's words have been changed.
The Koran was received in alleged revelations from ONE man and scribed by others under Muhammads direction
The word "alleged" that you have used is more appropriate for those people who wrote the Bible. Now I know you dont accept Muhammed as the prophet. However, We believe he indeed was the prophet of Allah, and since it was written in his guidance there is no doubt the Koran is unaltered and the exact words of God. And if you read Quran then you will know why is it IMPOSSIBLE for a mere human to come up with it let alone a mad man. Our belief in Quran is based on Quran being impossible for any human to come up with.
You enjoy the freedom to call our prophet Muhammad mad, however, we, as a Muslim can't do the same with Jesus or Moses. We love and respect them. That they were prophets of God has been confirmed within Quran.
By the way thanks Jwenting for you comments on Islam. I agree with you on most accounts (except ofcourse the places where you think like all religions Islam is also false but i guess the reason is obvious to you for my disagreeing).
We can go on, and on and on, talking, philosophising, applying varying degrees and flavors of logic, presenting and debunking myths and supposed contradictions using eloquent and convincing words, but at the end of the end of everything, God is real. To believe this is to simply accept the notion as fact, with or without evidence; but to know this is to have personally experienced His reality and His presence directly, and this is possible, to which slackwarebilly can attest, and to which I myself can attest because of personal experience, as well as personaly knowing others who have experienced Him and seeing with my own eyes the exercise of His power. Those who, for whatever reason don't want to believe cannot experience this, for reasons perhaps only God Himself knows, but to those who earnestly seek the truth, diligently and sincerely, He manifests Himself without fail. What we decide or choose to believe makes no difference whatsoever.
I no longer devote time to reading and studying and learning and dealing with deep questions to try to determine if God exists or not; my life is now devoted to gaining the fullest understanding of what He wants me to do.
Well, guys I think we have derailed a lot from our original discussion. In my paper I discussed three major points where evolution is in contradictions (atleast seems to be) with the religious scriptures (Genesis and also the Quran). I am stating my the points here:
1. Does evolution denies the existence of God?
2. The world was created in six days?
3. What about Adam and Eve?
I would like to know what you people think about this contradictions.
There are ofcourse other contradictions with evolution and Genesis:
1. The earth is young, only about 6000 years old.
2. Humans come before other creatures.
3. Global flood and fossils etc.
But I pereferred only to talk about contradictions that are common to both religions.
I personally don't think evolution was conceived specifically to deny the existence of God or to prove that He doesn't exist. As it happens, many of the structures within the theory, which are necessary for its continuity, contradict the origin of life on earth as told in the Bible.
Because I believe in God, I believe everything the Bible says. I can't prove by any means at all that the world was created in six days, but I do not doubt that it was, because God said it was. I also believe exactly what the Bible says about Adam and Eve, all logical arguments aside.
Again, since I believe in God, I believe in the truth of His inspired Word. It is not necessary for me to understand all of it in order to believe in God Himself. I don't believe in God because I have chosen to accept the Bible as truth; I believe in God because I have experienced Him directly, and I believe in the Bible because I believe in God, and my experience is in complete harmony with what I learn about Him from the Bible. In other words, I have no doubt that it was the God described in the Holy Bible who manifested Himself to me. I don't know how much sense that makes to anyone who hasn't met God for themselves.
If you'd taken the care to study other religions (and especially Islam in this case) you'd have found that Islam specifically prohibits suicide as well as the harming of Jews and Christians.
Sadly many influential Islamic leaders have political agendas (as do many religious leaders elsewhere) and can draw on a large base of people who like you don't study religious texts (even their own), instead taking the word of those leaders as being the will of god. In the Islamic world that's made worse by a large percentage of illiterate believers.
Aren't you contridicting yourself? Eariler posts you were talking about how people of religion kill each other. Now your saying people who can read and don't rely on words of others know that they don't do that. I don't understand, why are you changing all of a sudden? It's like I said, 19 of the hijackers were muslims(proven fact).
By the way, I know that Islam prohibits such an act, but they DID NOT believe they were doing wrong.
Also, it was rather inaccurate of you to say that I don't even study my own religion. You can prove no such thing, and know no such thing. I've kept this discussion out of my own relgion as much as I can. Unless your sitting here at home with me, then don't say I don't study my religion. I do not study other religions, you were correct about that. And I will NEVER study anyone elses religion just to understand them(or for any other reason), and that's my personal feelings. If you don't like it, or you feel just the opposite, then that's your problem...keep it to yourself. We all have our beliefs and ways of doing things, so don't get mad at me for the way I feel.
In the light of this discussion about Evolution and Creation, that's a rather large 'whoopsie', don't you think?
I'm afraid I don't understand :sad:
Could you explain.
It's like I said, 19 of the hijackers were muslims(proven fact).
By the way, I know that Islam prohibits such an act, but they DID NOT believe they were doing wrong.
No one is disagreeing that 19 of the hijackers had Arabic names. Now whether they were Muslims in it's truest sense -- only God knows. And it doesnt matter what they believed, it's about whether Islam permitted them to do what they did or not. The answer is Islam did not. All the major Muslim organisations and countries in the world condemned the attack and probably will be keep condemning it for the next 100 or so years.
You yourself said that you know that Islam prohibits such an act. So that's it.
server_crash, I don't believe that I or anyone else could have stated the point more clearly than it was stated in that post. I'd suggest you read it over again in its entirety, then if you still don't get the clearly stated point (an example of very clear contradiction) then perhaps you might consider gracefully withdrawing from debate.
Perhaps i'm being a bit cruel there, but I am sincerely trying not to be.
Perhaps I've misunderstood what you said myself, and you are simply asking for an explanation of the word 'whoopsie'.
I mean 'whoopsie' in the sense of "Whoops! Embarrassed! Mistake!:o"
As in - "Oh dear, God made a mistake. He must've been a bit tipsy when he started telling his story, coz he said something in chapter one then completely forgot what he said and told a different story about the same thing in chapter two!"
Read your Bible, dude ;)
These people killed for their religion because they didn't understand their religion as the founders of that religion intended.
That's a problem with many religions, Islam is certainly not alone in that.
The wackos in Waco were similar for example, and I doubt there's anything in the bible dictating that people that aren't Christians according to some strict definition should be burned alive or tortured to death.
By not studying other religions yet forming an opinion about them you're on very shaky ground.
And as to your last question to Catweazle, if you don't see how first stating that god created Adam after he created the animals and later stating that god created the animals after creating Adam to keep Adam company I must severely question your power of reason.
Perhaps i'm being a bit cruel there, but I am sincerely trying not to be.
Not at all. I feel stupid after reading it again. I missed the small details. Anyways, I'm not a religious scholar, I don't have a phd in bible study so I don't know what to say. I'm sure if someone knew their stuff they could justify it somehow, but I can't. And I'm not really in the debate anymore, I'm just commenting and questioning. But it's like I said earlier, some people(as you) say there is contradictions and can give viable proof, but I'm sure there are people out there that can justify.
Jwenting, I see what your saying about Waco. I guess people of other religions could have thought that is how our religion is like I'm thinking about the hijackers.
Here, I found this.
When were the animals created?
The creation of animals is described twice - It is said to have occurred before Adam on the first occasion and then later when Adam was already present. Isn't this a contradiction?
The actual language is not contradictory, though the style of the storyteller is sometimes misunderstood. The Bible tells of the creation of living creatures and Adam on the 6th day (Genesis 1:24-27 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Genesis%201:24-27;&version=31;)). In the next Chapter, the author retells in detail the story of Adam and Eve. God brings the animals (which he has already created) in front of Adam for him to select a helper. Adam names them, but no suitable helper is found. So God creates Eve. (Genesis 2:19-22 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Genesis%202:19-22;&version=31;))
The confusion comes in that in the retelling of Chapter 2 (commonly known as a 'flashback' in modern scriptwriting), the author first quotes God as saying "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." Then proceeds to revisit the fact that animals were created. The word used in the original texts in this verse is the Hebrew "yatsar" in the past tense which translates correctly to "had formed". Reference Strong's Number 03335 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/3/1107185987-7058.html). More modern translations use the correct verb tense, but this myth is propagated by the existance of unrevised editions of the KJV translation of 1611, which just has the word "formed" as the English translation of "yatsar".
Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; (Genesis 2:19 NIV (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Genesis%202:19;&version=31;))
Wether or not you believe it is your opinion.
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