Windows? Why would anyone run Windows? - Page 4

[GrimJack]

What are AceOfSpades and DemocraticUnderground? Never heard of them.
As to my opinions - they aren't opinions. They are the truth. Do your research, you'll find out I'm right.
Oh, and while you are at it, here's a little article I wrote about Astroturfing last night, that you might find interesting.

No, I am not going to read your article and I do not care about your TRUTH (well, actually, I went and skimmed a little of it - do not see how it is apropos of this particular discussion). Just add '.com' to the 2 references to go there - warning Ace is an extremely rightwingnut site that does not censor any opinions that they agree with - DU is a leftwingnut site that deletes inappropriate talk.

[Geowil]

most of this thread is funny. we have blatant M$ haters Vs. M$ supports/others who have some common sense.

Imo i hate the hell out of Miscro$oft but windows is something that you don't need to think about.

Almost all viruses and other kind of crapware can be traced back to going to risky sites and shoddy A/V protection/firewalls (like Norton).

I have used Windows going on 14 years now. Until I started using windows XP in 2003 I wasn't really aware of spyware and what have you.

Since then I have installed Zone Alarm and have yet to see any spyware or viruses on my XP computer.

On my Vista computer I have never had a spy ware prog or virus ever. Once or twice I did get some rouge anti-spyware programs, but they were easy enough to remove.

Also, Mad Hatter, in response to your claims that Windows takes longer to install. Prey tell what were the system specs on that computer?

Because on the computers at the school I used to work for (Core 2 Duo/Mac Book Pro's [via bootcamp]) when I had a windows installation marathon it only took 34 minutes per computer to install windows and about another 5 to 15 minutes for drivers.

On my home PC's (3 XP and 2 vista, 1 CentOs), 3 of which were built by myself, only take 25 minutes for XP and 20 minutes for Vista Ultimate.

I have CentOS installed on another of my computers, and it took 50 minutes to install and lacks the functionality and ease of use of windows. The only reason I use it is because one of my private mmo gaming servers only runs on linux (no win bins D

I also have to agree with another post that was about gaming.

Linux has no/little ground hold what so ever in gaming circles.

I have actually yet to find a game that does support linux actually.

Let's see what else... OH, that part about WMP being crap.. what are you smoking, I want some.

WMP is just fine once you install either CCP (Community Codec Pack) or Windows XP/Vista Codec Pack.

All in all this thread is one huge troll fest, flame wars left, right, and center. While I do hate M$, I still use some of their products (though I dont usually obtain them legally [Windows, Word 2000, and Urban Assault excluded]).

Though I do have to agree with some of your points in the OP.

Windows does have certain security holes that other Os' don't. And the 360 does reek of design flaws.

As for your logic behind why there are so many viruses for windows and all that, your almost completely wrong, others are almost completely right.

Its a combination of the two opinions really.

Windows IS, this is a fact, the most popular OS on the market currently and Windows DOES have many security flaws.

The reason there are so many viruses, etc. for windows is because of that popularity and the amount of people that would like nothing else better then to see that shiny Microsoft headquarters building come crashing to the ground.

i could go on, but I think your Post Troll is probably so full it's ready to burst if it were to consume any more food....

EDIT:
Also, you say this is NOT a geek site?

Let us see:

1. People discuss in great detail about different OS', computer hardware, programming, software, and techy stuff in general
2. Many rants made by people such as yourself are here
3. Forums for tons of different programming languages can be found
4. Tech support for anything under the sun as long as its computer related

... this looks like a geek site to me.

[jbennet]

I have CentOS installed on another of my computers, and it took 50 minutes to install and lacks the functionality and ease of use of windows.

CentOS isnt a good example. Its not a modern linux distribution (because its an enterprise grad solution, most of its software dates back to ~2006 - very stable but not very up to date). Therefore it lacks recent inmprovements with regards to video and network drivers.

[BestJewSinceJC]

As to your IT professionals - they are wrong. Which makes them not very professional in my book.

Let me explain the difference in simple terms. .

First of all, calling people "unprofessional" when they are not here to defend their opinion speaks volumes about you, none of it good. Second of all, I have spoken to these people in real life, and I know they are successful and I know they are SMEs, so why would I dismiss their opinion based on something "Mad Hatter" said online? Third, I know what modularity is. Don't patronize me.

:)

[The Mad Hatter]

First of all, calling people "unprofessional" when they are not here to defend their opinion speaks volumes about you, none of it good. Second of all, I have spoken to these people in real life, and I know they are successful and I know they are SMEs, so why would I dismiss their opinion based on something "Mad Hatter" said online? Third, I know what modularity is. Don't patronize me.

:)

I think that <a href="http://notnews.today.com/2009/10/06/microsoft-windows-beats-all-in-security-tests/">this link</a> says it all. Yes, it's satire. But it's also true. Did you hear about the laptops capture early in the "War on Terror" and how the military announced that they would be easy to crack because they were running Windows. Curious how reprints of the article no longer mentioned Windows, I wonder what (or who) inspired the change?

And of course Microsoft developed a tool for police to be able to access your computer, fortunately it only works on Windows, because I can guarantee that stolen ones will show up on the black market in short order.

Did you know that 40% of the computers connected to the Internet are bots? Actually that's 50% of the Windows computers (50% may not be accurate, it maybe only 45%, as we don't know how many immune Apple and Linux boxes there are).

Botnets Running Rampant is the title of another article - again all those bots run Windows. Microsoft supports the Russian Mob quite nicely - you have to wonder if they are getting paid to do so?

And you have to wonder about Microsoft. They didn't arrange to backup the Danger servers, and now T-Mobile Sidekick users could loose their data.

Something to think about.

[texxs]

What choice does a gamer have. I know supposedly there's programs to make Windows software work on a ?Linux box, but they never work right and are Always a big hassle.,, Plus Linux can't keep up on the driver situation (last time I set up a linux box a few years ago there was 1 driver for SATA drives, and it didn't work).

Windows is a hassle enough, There's no way I'm going to something even MORE complicated!

There's also no way, I'm going to accept, "Just can't do that" on my computer. And the idiocy and cuteness that comes with MACs (lots of "Can't do that"), just makes me sick. Even if they eliminated the "Can't do that" stuff, I probably couldn't stand a MAC. Plus they cost 3 times as much (and you get less, poor ignorant Maccies) . . .

So now you know why people use Windows, it's NOT because we like it or we're mindless drones. It's because we don't have a choice!

[jbennet]

last time I set up a linux box a few years ago there was 1 driver for SATA drives, and it didn't work

Yeah but a few years ago we were all using XP which has *no* native SATA support.

[The Mad Hatter]

What choice does a gamer have. I know supposedly there's programs to make Windows software work on a ?Linux box, but they never work right and are Always a big hassle.,, Plus Linux can't keep up on the driver situation (last time I set up a linux box a few years ago there was 1 driver for SATA drives, and it didn't work).

Windows is a hassle enough, There's no way I'm going to something even MORE complicated!

There's also no way, I'm going to accept, "Just can't do that" on my computer. And the idiocy and cuteness that comes with MACs (lots of "Can't do that"), just makes me sick. Even if they eliminated the "Can't do that" stuff, I probably couldn't stand a MAC. Plus they cost 3 times as much (and you get less, poor ignorant Maccies) . . .

So now you know why people use Windows, it's NOT because we like it or we're mindless drones. It's because we don't have a choice!

Actually if you compare a Mac against a Dell, same specs, the prices are pretty close. If you get a Windows box that's 1/3 the price, it won't have the same capabilities.

As to Linux, 3 years is forever for Linux. Remember that Fedora, Mandriva and Ubuntu, the biggest Linux distributions have 2 releases per year, as compared to Microsoft's 1 release in 5 years (though there were 3 service packs). This is actually becoming a problem, as both the Kernel and the Distributions update so often that people can't keep up.

Yeah but a few years ago we were all using XP which has *no* native SATA support.

Yeah, well technology moves pretty quickly. I learned programming on an IBM mainframe using punch cards (early 70's). Thirty-six years later it's impossible to buy a single chip that's as slow as that mainframe. Centronics parallel ports, RS232 ports, ISA slots, EISA slots, PCMIA slots, AGP slots, MCA slots, CGA, EGA, Hercules, Plantronics, VGA, and on and on.

I guess that's one of the reasons that I'm so willing to abandon Windows. I bought my first personal computer before Microsoft released DOS 1.0. To me, Microsoft is a newbie, that got where it is by torpedoing the competition, not by producing a superior product.

[The Mad Hatter]

Heh - check this out.

[jbennet]

Actually if you compare a Mac against a Dell, same specs, the prices are pretty close

Not outside of the US. The apple store here just swaps the $ for a £ which is shit.

e.g. Macbook (the most basic one) is £749 - Thats $1186

specs:

# Intel Core 2 Duo
# 2GB DDR2 Memory
# 160GB hard drive
# NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics

You can get a Toshiba with an AMD Dual core, 17" screen, 3gb ram, An Geforce 8200, and 250gb hdd for £340.

[The Mad Hatter]

Not outside of the US. The apple store here just swaps the $ for a £ which is shit.

e.g. Macbook (the most basic one) is £749 - Thats $1186

You can get a Toshiba with an AMD Dual core, 17" screen, 3gb ram, An Geforce 8200, and 250gb hdd for £340.

I've heard that about Sony as well with the PS3. In Canada you don't get nailed too bad, but we can just drive across the border if we aren't happy.

[jbennet]

yeah ms do it with windows too.

[The Mad Hatter]

Not outside of the US. The apple store here just swaps the $ for a £ which is shit.

e.g. Macbook (the most basic one) is £749 - Thats $1186

You can get a Toshiba with an AMD Dual core, 17" screen, 3gb ram, An Geforce 8200, and 250gb hdd for £340.

I've heard that about Sony as well with the PS3. In Canada you don't get nailed too bad, but we can just drive across the border if we aren't happy.

yeah ms do it with windows too.

Reminds me of that Cher song, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsys,_Tramps_&_Thieves">Gypsys, Tramps & Thieves</a>.

[The Mad Hatter]

Reminds me of that Cher song, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsys,_Tramps_&_Thieves">Gypsys, Tramps & Thieves</a>.

Opps, forgot this place doesn't do HTML. Write up on Gypsys, Tramps & Thieves is here.

[BestJewSinceJC]

Actually if you compare a Mac against a Dell, same specs, the prices are pretty close.

Not really. After a little research, I found a few articles that agree with your point, but the prices are no longer valid and the points do not apply to average computer users (for example, the average computer user does not need most of the software that comes standard on a mac). I recently (under two months ago) bought a Dell, and I was considering a Mac (not seriously, but I did compare prices). The prices were hundreds of dollars better for Dell. Of course, I was only really including processor speed, RAM, and cache size in my analysis. . I wasn't too worried about the video card, what software comes standard, etc. . so those probably play a factor. But for the average computer user (and I probably require a higher end computer than the average user) a Dell is much more affordable. The most inexpensive Mac that I considered usable for me was over a grand. After building a Dell that had more than enough power and memory, it was around 800.

[jbennet]

Exactly. for the price of the lowest priced imac (949) i can get this spec

mac:
20" display
2.6ghz core2
2gb ram
320gb hdd
crappy geforce 9400m gfx card (but then again its a mac so you wouldnt be using it for games anyway)

For £

Intel Core i7 (an AWESOME quad core cpu)
1gb Geforce GT220 gaming card
6gb ram
640gb hdd
20" TFT display

That is £890 - CHEAPER THAN THE MAC.

[The Mad Hatter]

Not really. After a little research, I found a few articles that agree with your point, but the prices are no longer valid and the points do not apply to average computer users (for example, the average computer user does not need most of the software that comes standard on a mac). I recently (under two months ago) bought a Dell, and I was considering a Mac (not seriously, but I did compare prices). The prices were hundreds of dollars better for Dell. Of course, I was only really including processor speed, RAM, and cache size in my analysis. . I wasn't too worried about the video card, what software comes standard, etc. . so those probably play a factor. But for the average computer user (and I probably require a higher end computer than the average user) a Dell is much more affordable. The most inexpensive Mac that I considered usable for me was over a grand. After building a Dell that had more than enough power and memory, it was around 800.

OK, so the machine may not be quite the same, but is probably close (horseshoes, hand grenades, and tactical nuclear weapons). But I have a few questions:

1) Did you buy anti-virus software?
2) Did you buy firewall software?
3) Did you buy CD/DVD burning software?
4) Did you buy photo management software?
5) Did you buy Video editing software?
6) Did you buy backup software?
7) Did you buy music editing/recording software?
8) Did you buy an office suite?
9) Do you get 6 plus hours of battery life?

For questions 1 to 7, it's either included with the Mac, or you don't need it (anti-virus). For question 8, Apple's IWord costs $79.00, and it's really nice (Pages, Numbers, & Keynote) while Mail comes with the Operating system (or of course you could download Open Office for free - I have both IWork and Open Office installed, and use both). For my business I use IWork a lot, because it comes with a lot of templates which save me time. I use Open Office for handling incoming documents because it has superior import capabilities (and then it's copy and paste into IWork).

So did you save $200,00? Or did you buy a machine that was priced $200,00 less.

Me, I'm glad I bought my Mac. Quite frankly it's the best computer I've ever had (my previous favorite was my Commodore 64).

Apple may be a pain in the ass in a lot of ways, but they build a damned good computer.

[jbennet]

1) Did you buy anti-virus software? - No.
2) Did you buy firewall software? - No.
3) Did you buy CD/DVD burning software? - No
4) Did you buy photo management software - No
5) Did you buy Video editing software? - No
6) Did you buy backup software? - No
7) Did you buy music editing/recording software? - Sort of
8) Did you buy an office suite? - Sort of
9) Do you get 6 plus hours of battery life? - No

I get 4 hours of battery life, otherwise all the rest are No (with the exception of office software [openoffice] and recording/editing software [audacity] they are all bundled with Vista or aviable from ms (e.g windows security essentials, windows live essentials) !)

[BestJewSinceJC]

OK, so the machine may not be quite the same, but is probably close (horseshoes, hand grenades, and tactical nuclear weapons). But I have a few questions:

1) Did you buy anti-virus software?
2) Did you buy firewall software?
3) Did you buy CD/DVD burning software?
4) Did you buy photo management software?
5) Did you buy Video editing software?
6) Did you buy backup software?
7) Did you buy music editing/recording software?
8) Did you buy an office suite?
9) Do you get 6 plus hours of battery life?

For questions 1 to 7, it's either included with the Mac, or you don't need it (anti-virus). For question 8, Apple's IWord costs $79.00, and it's really nice (Pages, Numbers, & Keynote) while Mail comes with the Operating system (or of course you could download Open Office for free - I have both IWork and Open Office installed, and use both). For my business I use IWork a lot, because it comes with a lot of templates which save me time. I use Open Office for handling incoming documents because it has superior import capabilities (and then it's copy and paste into IWork).

So did you save $200,00? Or did you buy a machine that was priced $200,00 less.

Me, I'm glad I bought my Mac. Quite frankly it's the best computer I've ever had (my previous favorite was my Commodore 64).

Apple may be a pain in the ass in a lot of ways, but they build a damned good computer.

Right, but the other differences are that the Mac's processors aren't as fast (2.13ghz compared to 2.44 ghz) and my computer came with 2x the RAM (4gigs compared to 2gigs). The battery I have says it lasts for 4 hrs on power saver mode, I usually use it on high performance and it lasts around 3. I see where the expenses that are in the Mac are coming from. They just aren't worthwhile for me or for the average computer user. Some of those things you listed are unnecessary for most people (online data backup - I have an external, an office suite - I only need Microsoft Works or similar, 6+ hrs battery life - my 4 is more than enough, music/video editing software - I don't use these) ... some of them are found for free online (music/video editing software - I used Camtasia Studios at work once, for example, and it was excellent and free) ... and some of them are standard on a lot of machines (CD/DVD burner, photo management software - assuming you weren't talking about photoshop, which I'd include in the 'unnecessary' category). So again, I have a more powerful machine with the simple things that I need to use for less money. I don't see how that is "buying a machine that is priced $200 less". It is buying a machine that has the necessities, and not spending more money for software that I will never use.

[The Mad Hatter]

1) Did you buy anti-virus software? - No.
2) Did you buy firewall software? - No.
3) Did you buy CD/DVD burning software? - No
4) Did you buy photo management software - No
5) Did you buy Video editing software? - No
6) Did you buy backup software? - No
7) Did you buy music editing/recording software? - Sort of
8) Did you buy an office suite? - Sort of
9) Do you get 6 plus hours of battery life? - No

I get 4 hours of battery life, otherwise all the rest are No (with the exception of office software [openoffice] and recording/editing software [audacity] they are all bundled with Vista or aviable from ms (e.g windows security essentials, windows live essentials) !)

Open Office is pretty good, main thing it's missing is templates, which is where IWork does really well.. Audacity works, but Garage Band is a lot nicer.

And now for a recommendation from Detective Inspector Bruce van der Graaf from the Computer Crime Investigation Unit of the New South Wales Police on Internet Banking, "The first rule, he said, was to never click on hyperlinks to the banking site and the second was to avoid Microsoft Windows."

I've only ever used linux distro's for testing stuff on, now mainly through vmware.

I've remained with windows xp because of the software really. For protection all I do is run sygate personal firewall. And decline anything that looks suspicious. Sure the pop up box is annoying but you get used to it after time.

[The Mad Hatter]

Right, but the other differences are that the Mac's processors aren't as fast (2.13ghz compared to 2.44 ghz) and my computer came with 2x the RAM (4gigs compared to 2gigs). The battery I have says it lasts for 4 hrs on power saver mode, I usually use it on high performance and it lasts around 3. I see where the expenses that are in the Mac are coming from. They just aren't worthwhile for me or for the average computer user. Some of those things you listed are unnecessary for most people (online data backup - I have an external, an office suite - I only need Microsoft Works or similar, 6+ hrs battery life - my 4 is more than enough, music/video editing software - I don't use these) ... some of them are found for free online (music/video editing software - I used Camtasia Studios at work once, for example, and it was excellent and free) ... and some of them are standard on a lot of machines (CD/DVD burner, photo management software - assuming you weren't talking about photoshop, which I'd include in the 'unnecessary' category). So again, I have a more powerful machine with the simple things that I need to use for less money. I don't see how that is "buying a machine that is priced $200 less". It is buying a machine that has the necessities, and not spending more money for software that I will never use.

Hold on a second - when did I mention online data backup?

Um, tried Microsoft works back in the bad old days (Windows 3.1) and never touched it since, it was so bad. Wordstar 3.3 was better. So was Easy Writer (called Sleazy Writer by fans). Word Perfect for Windows wasn't bad. Word itself wasn't bad (though over the years it's gotten pretty bloated).

Me, I like being able to work unplugged, so the extra time (Apple claims 7, I get 6+) is useful.

Music/Video editing software - use them all the time. But I'm retiring the music editing software, we are buying a Korg Oasys which includes everything you need to produce your own Audio Compact Discs.

As to the speed difference, you may not have taken into account the FSB speed (most people don't) or the actual screen specifications (Apple screens are generally of higher quality).

And it has an operating system that the New South Wales police don't warn you against (see previous post).

[jasimp]

The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round...

[jbennet]

New south wales poilce are idiots...!!!

Van der Graaf also mentioned the iPhone, which he called "quite safe" for internet banking.

"Another option is the Apple iPhone. It is only capable of running one process at a time so there is really no danger from infection," he said.

That doesnt make someting safe... the iphone isnt invulnerable. Also he doesnt seem to comprehend the fact that it can be lost easialy, or the fact that its sending your data over public airwaves or (usually unsecured) wireless networks

[The Mad Hatter]

I've only ever used linux distro's for testing stuff on, now mainly through vmware.

I've remained with windows xp because of the software really. For protection all I do is run sygate personal firewall. And decline anything that looks suspicious. Sure the pop up box is annoying but you get used to it after time.

Which software? I've found everything I needed for Mac or Linux, the only exception is games.

New south wales poilce are idiots...!!!

That doesnt make someting safe... the iphone isnt invulnerable. Also he doesnt seem to comprehend the fact that it can be lost easialy, or the fact that its sending your data over public airwaves or (usually unsecured) wireless networks

Are they? There aren't any exploits that affect the IPhone's security, just as there aren't any exploits that affect Linux's security. In fact the IPhone is one of the most secure platforms around, as Apple vets every application, so unless you "Jailbreak" your phone, you can't install a Keylogger or Trojan. The only possible issue is public airwaves, and all mobile devices have the same problem, the IPhone is no less secure than the WinMobile phones.

[Will Gresham]

There aren't any exploits that affect the IPhone's security

There are exploits, although they tend to be patched fairly quickly.

Look at this: http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/28/hackers-iphone-apple-technology-security-hackers.html

Apple did resolve this issue, although there have been others before this and there are, no doubt, undiscovered problems.

[crunchie]

And it has an operating system that the New South Wales police don't warn you against (see previous post).

And one would actually believe (arguably) the most corrupt police in Australia? Give me a break.

[BestJewSinceJC]

Hold on a second - when did I mention online data backup?

Um, tried Microsoft works back in the bad old days (Windows 3.1) and never touched it since, it was so bad. Wordstar 3.3 was better. So was Easy Writer (called Sleazy Writer by fans). Word Perfect for Windows wasn't bad. Word itself wasn't bad (though over the years it's gotten pretty bloated).

Me, I like being able to work unplugged, so the extra time (Apple claims 7, I get 6+) is useful.

Music/Video editing software - use them all the time. But I'm retiring the music editing software, we are buying a Korg Oasys which includes everything you need to produce your own Audio Compact Discs.

As to the speed difference, you may not have taken into account the FSB speed (most people don't) or the actual screen specifications (Apple screens are generally of higher quality).

And it has an operating system that the New South Wales police don't warn you against (see previous post).

I highly doubt that Dell would put together a machine that was unbalanced by putting in a bottleneck in the FSB, if that is what you are suggesting (which it seems it is). In any case, the FSB speed for both systems is 1066 MHz. . . Not that it matters (if you look into it more, I believe the speed does not determine the actual bandwidth, although I'm no expert). The point is that including video editing, music editing, and other software packages that most people don't use into the "price comparison" of systems is pointless. At that point, a price comparison is not useful because you are losing the userbase that doesn't care about your software packages (the ones you mentioned earlier) (which happens to be the majority of users, in my opinion). Take it or leave it, but there are obviously a good number of people that agree with me.

Oh, and I do not think that the opinion of a police organization is very relevant in computer science. (Although I hesitate to reject it right away, but I'm also too lazy to read it). :p

[jbennet]

There aren't any exploits that affect the IPhone's security, just as there aren't any exploits that affect Linux's security

There is exploits for both (and there is probably likely to be more for the iphone seeing as apple keep adding bloat to it e.g flash support)

[The Mad Hatter]

New south wales poilce are idiots...!!!

That doesnt make someting safe... the iphone isnt invulnerable. Also he doesnt seem to comprehend the fact that it can be lost easialy, or the fact that its sending your data over public airwaves or (usually unsecured) wireless networks

Think of how many stolen goods reports they get. I'm quite certain that they know how easily something can be stolen.

There are exploits, although they tend to be patched fairly quickly.

Look at this: http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/28/hackers-iphone-apple-technology-security-hackers.html

Apple did resolve this issue, although there have been others before this and there are, no doubt, undiscovered problems.

But Apple keeps plugging them, and pretty quickly.

And one would actually believe (arguably) the most corrupt police in Australia? Give me a break.

Now that one I hadn't heard. Why do you say they are corrupt (since I'm not from Australia I've no doubt missed the juicy bits).

I highly doubt that Dell would put together a machine that was unbalanced by putting in a bottleneck in the FSB, if that is what you are suggesting (which it seems it is). In any case, the FSB speed for both systems is 1066 MHz. . . Not that it matters (if you look into it more, I believe the speed does not determine the actual bandwidth, although I'm no expert). The point is that including video editing, music editing, and other software packages that most people don't use into the "price comparison" of systems is pointless. At that point, a price comparison is not useful because you are losing the userbase that doesn't care about your software packages (the ones you mentioned earlier) (which happens to be the majority of users, in my opinion). Take it or leave it, but there are obviously a good number of people that agree with me.

Oh, and I do not think that the opinion of a police organization is very relevant in computer science. (Although I hesitate to reject it right away, but I'm also too lazy to read it). :p

Dell buys components from other vendors. Their low price models often are less than stellar performers, as they use low cost components. Their top of the line machines on the other hand are pretty good. Any time you are doing a comparison, you need to check all the details, which is why I asked about the FSB. There's a lot that goes into a computer, and while one slow component won't usually mess up a computer that badly, it will have an impact on performance.

I didn't know that you didn't use that software until I asked. I do, so it's a value for me. And considering that Apple's sales are going up during a Depression, obviously a lot of people agree with me.

The cop in question specialized in computer crime.

There is exploits for both (and there is probably likely to be more for the iphone seeing as apple keep adding bloat to it e.g flash support)

Adding bloat? Where? Seriously. As to Flash, Apple will not be adding it to the IPhone. They have made several statements to this affect, but it seems no one listens. This is one of the reasons that Apple is heavily involved in putting together the HTML5 Specification, which removes the need for Flash and Silverlight for showing video.