"199 out of 200 applicants for every programming job can't write code at all." - Page 2

[vaultdweller123]

Sure potential is an important quality, but would you hire a dull person
to make a software for you company, even if that dull person has
potential? Or would you hire a "*smart" person for that same job?
Remember its you ass on the line.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* whatever smart means these days.

it's really no point talking to a moron.... trying to get a point over his head. im not saying you depend it all to him.. im just saying that a company dont just hire all pure smart programmers... they can give a chance to average programmmer.... coz. they will grow from work experience. of course u must have a smart lead programmer that will lead the team.

[BestJewSinceJC]

im just saying that a company dont just hire all pure smart programmers... they can give a chance to average programmmer.... coz. they will grow from work experience. of course u must have a smart lead programmer that will lead the team.

I agree with your conclusion, but not with your reasoning. The major reasons that a company doesn't hire all "pure smart programmers" are twofold. First, not all pure smart programmers have social skills, and many companies are interested in more than just programming skill: they're interested in communication skills, which make for better teamwork, a better work environment, and more company and individual growth due to communication. Second, even if everyone's "other" non-programming skills were equal, it would be almost impossible to design a process whereby the best programmers always got picked for the job.

That's all my own opinion obviously, and we'll see if anyone else has any thoughts on the matter.

[WaltP]

And of course, the not-so-smart programmers are cheaper... :icon_wink:

[vaultdweller123]

And of course, the not-so-smart programmers are cheaper... :icon_wink:

oh yeah exactly!

[verruckt24]

it's really no point talking to a moron.... trying to get a point over his head. im not saying you depend it all to him.. im just saying that a company dont just hire all pure smart programmers... they can give a chance to average programmmer.... coz. they will grow from work experience. of course u must have a smart lead programmer that will lead the team.

Actually I have to disagree to the point you seem to make here. Allowing a person to grow in experience and knowledge takes time, money and obviously other resources. And while this would be a very humane gesture towards anyone we have to understand that organisations cannot always function in this manner however hard we might want them to. Organisations, as Bruce Eckel indicates in one of his recent blogs will always have monetary considerations uppermost in their minds. And these considerations would always want them to hire individuals well established in their fields, experts as some might like to call them, ready to deliver what they promise from day one (so to speak) so that the organisation can address their primary concern.

Even though we assume that some organisation might even have enough heart to employ a person under the pretext that he might grow with experience, who's ready to pay the cost if he/she doesn't. And this certainly is a high probability that I am talking about considering a lot of people, once comfortably employed with their monthly paycheck would fast loose the motivation to grow or improve themselves.

[BestJewSinceJC]

@ WaltP, are you following me around to make snide remarks, or is that a serious comment? If it's serious, please elaborate.

And these considerations would always want them to hire individuals well established in their fields, experts as some might like to call them, ready to deliver what they promise from day one (so to speak) so that the organisation can address their primary concern.

Even though we assume that some organisation might even have enough heart to employ a person under the pretext that he might grow with experience, who's ready to pay the cost if he/she doesn't.

Every company in the world that hires 'new hires' or college students or anyone just joining the workforce is making an investment based on the hope that the people they hired possess talent of some sort. Presumably most of those people are not well established in their field and many have not ever had a career job before at all.

[verruckt24]

Every company in the world that hires 'new hires' or college students or anyone just joining the workforce is making an investment based on the hope that the people they hired possess talent of some sort. Presumably most of those people are not well established in their field and many have not ever had a career job before at all.

I agree with you, but while writing the above post I didn't believe that we were really talking about interns/freshers here, cause with freshers there's no other alternative parameter to judge them on apart from the "promise" that they seem to make. While hiring such people an interviewer would filter them based on their education, call the selected ones for interview and then, if he decides to employ them, hope they would be as good as they sounded in the interview i.e hope that they live upto the "promise" they make.

[jwenting]

>Averagely speaking, I doubt that a person without skills at say
>playing basketball, would put hard work and dedication to make
>it to the NBA
The NBA is very much a young person's arena. Of course you need talent to reach that level before age starts to take effect. I assume you brought up basketball because professional piano playing and programming don't have that particular restriction, and your argument would fall flat without a straw man. ;)

Here at least programming is considered a young persons' arena. If you're over 30 you have a hard time finding a job in IT below management level (and even there), everyone wants to have a "young and dynamic team".
When I walk into a building for a job interview and see that the average age of the people there is 25 or so I know I won't get hired.
If the average person looks like an athlete, I know I won't get hired.
If the managers are over 40 and seem to like good food, I probably stand a good chance.
Notice that actual skills and personality don't come into the discussion at all?

>Same for programming, I doubt that a person with no programming
>talent will have the ambition and the dedication to become a professional
Now we're talking about something different. The ability to beat talent with effort is quite different from the desire to succeed without talent.

Without that desire, you'll never be able to achieve success, talent or no talent.

[Narue]

>Notice that actual skills and personality don't come into the discussion at all?
I avoid working for companies like that.

>Without that desire, you'll never be able to achieve success, talent or no talent.
I don't disagree, but that's still different from the original statement I replied to. The original statement said that to do <xxx> (for whatever <xxx> you're trying to make seem exclusive) you need talent and a special mind. It's unlikely that a "special mind" meant a desire to excel. Rather, I interpreted it to be some extension of talent.

[vaultdweller123]

and that is what you call DISCRIMINATION!, if that is the criteria of employment... then average programmers have no chance of landing a job... So you had to be super smart in order to have to had a secure future after graduate. So if your just studying in college and you think that your skills are not that excellent enough, better quit school.... go join a gang, commit crimes and kill intelligent programmers. Is that what you mean? Ive seen many successful programmer friends that are not really that smart. i mean they just average in college days but became proficient in their craft through experience.

[apegram]

@vaultdweller123

I could be wrong, but it seems your argument in this thread boils down to "it's not fair for a company to hire someone of reasonable intelligence with a proven trackrecord of success over someone fresh out of college who may or may not be all that bright." Is that it?

[vaultdweller123]

@vaultdweller123

I could be wrong, but it seems your argument in this thread boils down to "it's not fair for a company to hire someone of reasonable intelligence with a proven trackrecord of success over someone fresh out of college who may or may not be all that bright." Is that it?

BULL'S EYE! thats excatly what i want to say... i just find a hard time on my english... sorry.

[richman0829]

Probably the classic uberprogrammer would be Hugh Jackman in Swordfish, machine-gunning the keyboard in a life-and-death situation while getting oral taunts from John Travolta and oral sex from someone else.

[BestJewSinceJC]

Probably the classic uberprogrammer would be Hugh Jackman in Swordfish, machine-gunning the keyboard in a life-and-death situation while getting oral taunts from John Travolta and oral sex from someone else.

Die Hard franchise is pretty good too. The 'mac commercial guy' hacks into all kinds of systems that he's never been on before in seconds. Haha.

[richman0829]

...easier questions are asked of college students than of professionals.

and

Just about anybody can learn to play the piano, but very few can be a concert pianist.

lead up to my two cents' worth, which is... Is there a place for the programming equivalent of a honky-tonk pianist? Or a retired guy who plays two nights a week in a piano bar, hits wrong notes every now and then, but basically plays recognizable tunes? Because frankly, having taken in only the first semester of C++ at a community college, the conversation so far sounds elitist and scary. I'd be content paying my dues doing simple coding at first, figuring it'll take five years of experience anyway just to find out if I have any talent for this or not. Even though the ads all ask for top talent, are there any outfits that'll take people with just the basics and work with them? My feeling is I'll learn a lot more if, while continuing to take classes, I do C++ coding, on a simple level, in a part-time job.

Rich

[Narue]

>I'd be content paying my dues doing simple coding at first, figuring
>it'll take five years of experience anyway just to find out if I have any
>talent for this or not.
Typically it takes two years of workforce programming before you settle into a stride. Beyond that point it's unusual to make significant leaps in ability.

>Even though the ads all ask for top talent
Ads ask for pipe dreams. Don't judge yourself against the list of buzzwords than some HR grunt pulled out of their grab bag of cheap adjectives. If I compare myself against an ad, I'd be woefully underqualified for my own job. But my employer is in no hurry to replace me. ;)

>are there any outfits that'll take people with just the basics and work with them?
Of course. How do you think all of us got into the field? ;)

>My feeling is I'll learn a lot more if, while continuing to take
>classes, I do C++ coding, on a simple level, in a part-time job.
Aside from stuff like rent-a-coder, you're probably not going to find a part-time job doing C++. But you're right in thinking you'll learn more that way.

[verruckt24]

Don't judge yourself against the list of buzzwords than some HR grunt pulled out of their grab bag of cheap adjectives. If I compare myself against an ad, I'd be woefully underqualified for my own job

You do not know how comforting those words are for someone currently going through a lot of ads and getting all the more depressed by the time he's done reading it. ;)

[MosaicFuneral]

>Even though the ads all ask for top talent
Ads ask for pipe dreams. Don't judge yourself against the list of buzzwords than some HR grunt pulled out of their grab bag of cheap adjectives. If I compare myself against an ad, I'd be woefully underqualified for my own job. But my employer is in no hurry to replace me. ;)

So you don't have to have a Master in CS and Mathmatics with 12y xp as a Sr. Core System Analyst, Pro PHP, was on the dev-team for the .NET standard, 20y xp in eight dead languages and DB design?

That's pretty much how all the ads out there read.

[Narue]

>That's pretty much how all the ads out there read.
I realized it was all bullshit when I read an ad requiring ten years of Java experience...in 1998. :icon_rolleyes:

[mrnutty]

>> Aside from stuff like rent-a-coder, you're probably not going to find a part-time job doing C++.

Does that apply to full time job as well, in your opinion?

[richman0829]

I doubt that a person with no
programming talent will have the ambition and the dedication to
become a professional

and

it still takes the same
hard work and dedication to reach the top level

Seems like all the discussion here is about those in the 98th percentile; I'm certainly grateful for the advances such people are able to make (even if their English grammar and syntax are lacking in polish), but it STILL seems to me there's a place for plebes to get on-the-job training. Or is there?

[Ancient Dragon]

I started out with a temp agency here in St Louis in 1986/7. At the time I had zero programming experience, not even college degree. My sole assets were that I was about 43 years old, recently retired US military, bought an Intro to C programming book and cheap computer, then studied that book for a few weeks. I saw an ad in the local newspaper for an entry level job, applied for it, and was hired.

I could be wrong but I suppose there are still a few entry-level jobs like that for us normal-brained folks.

[apegram]

In a healthy economy, of course there are opportunities for the inexperienced to find a job and grow. However, when unemployment is hovering around 10%, employers can afford to be a little bit more picky. They can ask for 3-5 years experience with .NET 4, which, of course, only the people designing the daggum thing would have.

[BestJewSinceJC]

I started out with a temp agency here in St Louis in 1986/7. At the time I had zero programming experience, not even college degree. My sole assets were that I was about 43 years old, recently retired US military, bought an Intro to C programming book and cheap computer, then studied that book for a few weeks. I saw an ad in the local newspaper for an entry level job, applied for it, and was hired.

I could be wrong but I suppose there are still a few entry-level jobs like that for us normal-brained folks.

I imagine it was a bit easier at that time than it is now (considering sheer volume of programmers), but that is still no small feat. And as someone who has seen your posts on this site, I'll say that I have never doubted your ability to program. Not that my opinion is relevant on that matter, but I think that many others feel the same. You obviously weren't looking for compliments, but who's to say that some agency couldn't be favorably impressed with X candidate regardless of their education level.

[Narue]

>>> Aside from stuff like rent-a-coder, you're probably not going to find a part-time job doing C++.
>Does that apply to full time job as well, in your opinion?
Not really. The point was that any serious programming job is unlikely to be part-time. Though concessions can be made if you're going to school at the time, I imagine.

>Seems like all the discussion here is about those in the 98th percentile
This thread seems to me more about weeding out the hopeless cases. The best people look for the best jobs, and the jobs they ignore are left for everyone else. Continue that trend down the chain until even the hopeless cases manage to get a job. It all evens out so that regardless of your level, someone will be willing to hire you.

[richman0829]

Aside from stuff like rent-a-coder, you're probably not going to find a part-time job doing C++. But you're right in thinking you'll learn more that way.

and

I started out with a temp agency here in St Louis in 1986/7.

Yup, I think a temp agency is a way to go for me at this point - or whenever the economy permits. I can always work my way up to whatever level I turn out to be capable of. And I'm retired military, too - who says there's No Chance Outside? (jargon for non-commissioned officer, lol).

[BestJewSinceJC]

>>> Aside from stuff like rent-a-coder, you're probably not going to find a part-time job doing C++.
>Does that apply to full time job as well, in your opinion?
Not really. The point was that any serious programming job is unlikely to be part-time. Though concessions can be made if you're going to school at the time, I imagine.

>Seems like all the discussion here is about those in the 98th percentile
This thread seems to me more about weeding out the hopeless cases. The best people look for the best jobs, and the jobs they ignore are left for everyone else. Continue that trend down the chain until even the hopeless cases manage to get a job. It all evens out so that regardless of your level, someone will be willing to hire you.

Narue, I found that "else-if" statement which was implemented using a while loop and a break statement pretty funny. You guys should all check out that link. Haha.

[NathanOliver]

In the state of the economy right now what is the least amount of education a programmer should have before even trying to find a job. I have been working on computers since I was 13. I started programing in basic that comes on graphing calculators and worked up to visual basics and now I'm teaching myself c++. My father is a robotic engineer in a medicinal robot manufacturing firm and he has been very impressed with my level of detail in my code and the different approaches i take to solving problems. I haven't had any formal education in c++ but was thinking of trying to find a very low entry level job. any suggestions?

[jwenting]

>Notice that actual skills and personality don't come into the discussion at all?
I avoid working for companies like that.

Technical skills come after, and when I pass those hurdles they're not usually an obstacle.
And those are usually gauged more in a semi-informal talk rather than rigorous grilling.
And that's how it should be, a job interview shouldn't be a 3rd degree police interrogation where the interviewer assumes from the start that the candidate is incompetent and his entire resume a complete fabrication, with the candidate desperate to do whatever it takes to prove that assumption incorrect (and yes, I've encountered those, wouldn't accept a position in a company that treats me with such an attitude from the start).

Was just pointing out that technical skills are only a small part of the job interview/employemt process.

>Without that desire, you'll never be able to achieve success, talent or no talent.
I don't disagree, but that's still different from the original statement I replied to. The original statement said that to do <xxx> (for whatever <xxx> you're trying to make seem exclusive) you need talent and a special mind. It's unlikely that a "special mind" meant a desire to excel. Rather, I interpreted it to be some extension of talent.

I interpreted it as a claim that desire is utterly irrelevant to the achievement of success.

[Narue]

>where the interviewer assumes from the start that the candidate
>is incompetent and his entire resume a complete fabrication
Did you know that probably around half of the candidates for a position lie on their resume? In harder times, that percentage increases quite a bit. It's safer to assume that the resume is worthless and determine the candidate's suitability through conversation and tests that are relevant to the job.