Guns

What do you all think about gun law? I reaslise that this has been discussed over the years, but nothing recently. We all know about the problems in the USA. Now we are starting to see it in the UK. Northern England: two maniacs in a matter of just over a month. Should guns be banned full stop / period? I fully appreciate that some flavours of dick will always get their hands on a gun if needs be, but would a blanket ban make your country (whichever) safer? Would something like a mandatory 15 year custodial sentence for being caught in possession, make a difference?

It always makes me laugh when I hear, "guns don't kill people, people kill people." I don't see many people killing each other with a spork.

[Ancient Dragon]

Absolutely and most definately not. The first thing all dictatorships do is take away the ability of its citizens to defend themselves. And it has been demonstrated over and over again, time after time, that crime INCREASES when guns are restricted or banned.

Just one of many many examples

http://justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

• In 1982, a survey of imprisoned criminals found that 34% of them had been "scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim." (16c)
  
• Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%. (1)

>>It always makes me laugh when I hear, "guns don't kill people, people kill people." I don't see many people killing each other with a spork.
Thats because you are an idot and have no clue. Many people have been killed with knives, pitchforks, and all sorts of objects.

> Thats because you are an idot and have no clue

Would that be idiot? Bit harsh AD. You can disagree, no need to be personal. I'm quite disappointed, I've lost a lot of respect for you.

WRT to 'spork' etc - yes I agree, some will fashion weapons out of anything, but the pitchforks, knives and such like probably won't cause as much mayhem compared to the shotgun our current maniac is wielding. The sole intention of having a gun is to kill people, surely? Deterrent, possibly, but unless you're waving it about or have it on some sort of forearm slide so that it can be whipped out in a millisecond, I can't see how much good, defence-wise they would be either.

[happygeek]

And it has been demonstrated over and over again, time after time, that crime INCREASES when guns are restricted or banned.

Not in the UK it hasn't. Over here, where guns have always (in recent history at least) been restricted, we are finding that as guns become easier to get hold of so gun crime increases. That, it seems to me, is a pretty obvious conclusion to draw.

[VernonDozier]

Many people have been killed with knives, pitchforks, and all sorts of objects.

But mostly with guns.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/murder.html

Weapons
Of those incidents in which the murder weapon was specified, 70.3 percent of the homicides that occurred in 2004 were committed with firearms. Of those, 77.9 percent involved handguns, 5.4 percent involved shotguns, and 4.2 percent involved rifles. Approximately 12.4 of the murders were committed with other types or unspecified types of firearms. Knives or cutting instruments were used in 14.1 percent of the murders; personal weapons, such as hands, fists, and feet, were used in 7.0 percent of murders, and blunt objects (i.e., clubs, hammers, etc.) were used in 5.0 percent of the homicides. Other weapons, such as poison, explosives, narcotics, etc., were used in 3.6 percent of the murders. (Based on Table 2.9.)

Pretty good chart on the page with a lot of breakdowns.

The thing about guns that isn't true about any other weapon is that anyone can kill anyone with a gun. Clubs, knives, pitchforks, some people can at least fight back(or run away). You at least have a fighting chance. Not a very FAIR fight usually, but a fight. My nine year old nephew could could kill me with a gun, but nothing else. That's why I let him play with knives, but not guns when he comes over.

I voted no in the poll. Blanket ban is too simplistic. But how come all the British and French gangbangers don't buy a bunch of guns in the U.S. and take them back. I've never understood the lack of gun crime in Europe. Illegal guns must cost way more over there and the thugs simply can't afford them?

[VernonDozier]

Deterrent, possibly, but unless you're waving it about or have it on some sort of forearm slide so that it can be whipped out in a millisecond, I can't see how much good, defence-wise they would be either.

Most people use holsters. :-/. The bad guys just stick them in their waistband. Your quick-draw ability goes up markedly with a holster, plus it's safer, plus you don't have to worry about the damn thing falling out every time you go to the Men's Room.

I'm all for the forearm slide and I've generally found Travis Bickle to be a good role model for all things, not just quick draw techniques, but optimistically, most days you won't need to draw your gun. Seems like the slide would get in the way.

Just buy a holster and practice. You'll get quick soon enough.

[happygeek]

But how come all the British and French gangbangers don't buy a bunch of guns in the U.S. and take them back. I've never understood the lack of gun crime in Europe. Illegal guns must cost way more over there and the thugs simply can't afford them?

Getting guns into the UK is a lot more difficult than you might imagine, especially in these days of heightened terrorist alerts.

Most of the guns used in gun crime over here would appear to be 'recommissioned' weapons that were previously deactivated (blank firers, converted for use as air pistols/rifles, collectors items etc).

That said, as I understand it, many of the gangbangers here simply hire an illegal firearm (for a relatively low cost) from underground sources for a day or two - just long enough to do a robbery or threaten/kill a rival.

[Ancient Dragon]

Here is a guy whom I suspect wishes he had used a holster.

[MosaicFuneral]

Why are weapons such a taboo subject in the UK? Seriously, you guys are afraid of having pointed ends on a kitchen knife.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4581871.stm

Getting guns into the UK is a lot more difficult than you might imagine, especially in these days of heightened terrorist alerts.

Which is why I've heard many of them are made over there out of 35k-PSI pipes. Obviously open-bolt, automatic submachine guns, since they have braindead mechanics.

[happygeek]

Why are weapons such a taboo subject in the UK? Seriously, you guys are afraid of having pointed ends on a kitchen knife.

We've seen the mess they've made in the USA and would rather our murder rate didn't get that high, thanks very much.

> Why are weapons such a taboo subject in the UK? Seriously, you guys are afraid of having pointed ends on a kitchen knife.

It's not taboo. We discuss it all the time. The knives thing is our biggest problem, so yes, there is discussion about reducing said problem. You may find that ridiculous, but surely it's a better place to be than the situation some countries find themselves in with their mass killings, drive-by killings and so on. Would you folks across the pond rather see our society drowned in guns? Would that make you feel safer as you strolled down Oxford Street on a visit to London?

It reminds me of the time that a mate from England once said of my area in Wales, "O Christ, how can you live here man, the most interesting thing that you hear on the radio is 'Farmer Jones builds a wall'!"

I thought about the alternative, "Just three murders and two rapes today, very quiet".

[VernonDozier]

> Why are weapons such a taboo subject in the UK? Seriously, you guys are afraid of having pointed ends on a kitchen knife.

It's not taboo. We discuss it all the time. The knives thing is our biggest problem, so yes, there is discussion about reducing said problem. You may find that ridiculous, but surely it's a better place to be than the situation some countries find themselves in with their mass killings, drive-by killings and so on. Would you folks across the pond rather see our society drowned in guns? Would that make you feel safer as you strolled down Oxford Street on a visit to London?

It reminds me of the time that a mate from England once said of my area in Wales, "O Christ, how can you live here man, the most interesting thing that you hear on the radio is 'Farmer Jones builds a wall'!"

I thought about the alternative, "Just three murders and two rapes today, very quiet".

aardav, I think I may have accidentally flagged you as a bad post instead of hitting "Reply". Sorry 'bout that, but the buttons are a bit close and I'm sure you've made some posts that deserved to be flagged as bad that I missed, assuming being a complete smart-ass is against the rules. Actually, I like smart-asses and I like your posts, so keep them up.

I had a comment about your actual post, but after getting distracted by hitting the wrong button, damn if I know what it was. It's a shame, too, because I'm sure it was an extremely poignant post whose brilliance would end all debate on this subject.

> I had a comment about your actual post, but after getting distracted by hitting the wrong button, damn if I know what it was. It's a shame, too, because I'm sure it was an extremely poignant post whose brilliance would end all debate on this subject.

Let's 'ave it son! :icon_mrgreen:

[Lusiphur]

Let me start off by saying that I don't believe a "blanket ban" is a solution in any discussion of firearms. It has generally been shown that any attempt to completely ban something has the converse effect of causing increased interest in having/doing that thing.

Here in Canada we already have some rather strict firearms laws with regards to the ownership and transport of handguns and automatic weapons. The laws are a bit more lax with regards to hunting rifles and the like but you're still not allowed to just walk down the street with a shotgun on your arm or anything.

The laws preventing standard citizens from walking around with, for example, a handgun on their person, have done little however to prevent guns from becoming available to those who really want one and have done even less to prevent gun related violence.

I will say though that I am exceptionally glad not to be living in Texas where, it seems, they are required to post signs at the airport specifically preventing residents from carrying their guns into the airport as citizens are legally allowed to walk around with handguns strapped to their hips.

[Excizted]

Guns are banned in Danmark.
We still hear, almost regularily I would say, about gunshooting in the news.

I don't really have an opinion on whether it is a good thing or not. I have neither been threatened by a gun or felt I would like to have a gun.

[Biker920]

As to a ban on guns or any thing else I vote NO!! here in the USA bans have gotten us nothing but nothing but gangsters and massive organized crime first lesson when banned a black market will spring up be it guns drugs booze or any other product.As to the myth that no one is harmed by a spork my younger Brother has been a prison guard for over 10 years and relates that the weapon of choice in the cell block is a sharpened plastic eating implement = spork. I own several guns totally unsupervised by a government Nanny and ain't even pointed one at anyone since leaving the USN. It takes a Person to kill a Person inanimate objects do not harm without thoughtful guidance. Later---

Interesting point Biker. I would agree with much of what you say. However, inanimate objects they may be, but they tend to go bang with disastrous results, often accidentally. As regard to the humble spork - yes it was a glib example - as I'd only just finished watching that recent film with Gerard Butler, where he does an inmate in the neck with one.

I just don't understand the 'I must have a gun' mentality. I'm sure that I'd be more likely to be shot if I carried one. Is it that carrying a gun is a civil liberty? Is that why many are so touchy about the chance of an 'inanimate object' being banned?

BTW: I'm really not trying to have a go at gun people, just trying to get an idea about why you want to carry one.

[Lusiphur]

I just don't understand the 'I must have a gun' mentality. I'm sure that I'd be more likely to be shot if I carried one. Is it that carrying a gun is a civil liberty? Is that why many are so touchy about the chance of an 'inanimate object' being banned?

Not to say this applies to "all Americans" but it does apply to many of the gun lobbyists... The general argument is that it is within their rights as outlined in the constitution to have the right to bare arms in defense of their homes.

What many tend to ignore/omit in their mantra is that this right was established to provide a legal basis for the formation of an "organized local militia" in defense of their lands and property against foreign invasion (most notably from the then king of England).

In today's day and age this "right to bare arms" is well past obsolete but thanks to the founding fathers including it in the original bill of rights provides so many people such a strong point of leverage as to make it nearly impossible to repeal now.

[VernonDozier]

Interesting point Biker. I would agree with much of what you say. However, inanimate objects they may be, but they tend to go bang with disastrous results, often accidentally. As regard to the humble spork - yes it was a glib example - as I'd only just finished watching that recent film with Gerard Butler, where he does an inmate in the neck with one.

I just don't understand the 'I must have a gun' mentality. I'm sure that I'd be more likely to be shot if I carried one. Is it that carrying a gun is a civil liberty? Is that why many are so touchy about the chance of an 'inanimate object' being banned?

BTW: I'm really not trying to have a go at gun people, just trying to get an idea about why you want to carry one.

Like everything and everywhere else, there's a wide spectrum of views on gun control in the US, ranging from "ban them completely, no exceptions" to "you should be allowed to carry a Stinger missile around with you". Most people fall somewhere in between. Myself, I'm in the middle, but tilt more to the gun control side. Law-abiding citizens should be allowed to own guns, but you need to register them, have a waiting period, plus you should have to prove that you are a competent adult, that the weapon is mechanically sound, and that you know how to operate it, store it, etc., plus its OK for government to ban silencers and automatic weapons, though they really need to stop with "Assault Weapon" bans, which are usually just banning plain old semi-auto rifles that look scary. If you want to CARRY it on your person, you need to provide a good reason why you need it. That's just where I lie on the spectrum.

As to why so many Americans feel so strongly that guns are so needed among the citizenry, I think it's been ingrained in us from childhood that if the army and police are the only ones with guns, it will inevitably turn into a dictatorship and an armed citizenry is the only thing that keeps that from happening. There are a whole bunch of "Checks and Balances" and that's a major one. That was certainly the belief 234 years ago. Is that now obsolete? Who knows? But by now, it's completely ingrained in the culture. Many in the US believe you not only have a RIGHT to bear arms, you have a DUTY to bear arms.

It's morphed now into protection from street thugs. It's a check and balance against them. You want the guy who's mugging you or breaking into your house to always have to wonder whether he's the only guy with a gun.

[Biker920]

ardav -this quote from an old fire arms handler "There is no such thing as an accidental discharge of a weapon, merely improper or careless handling resulting in a problem". Remember all weapons are loaded until proven otherwise. And as to the militia thing when the right to bear arms was included in our constitution the citizen was the militia, there was no actual standing army. today the US Federal armed forces are not allowed to be deployed in response to civil problems without approval of Congress.

Thanks guys, I'm starting to 'get it', but I still can't help but feel a sense of alien mentality. I've had some training with firearms - mainly military rifles - but know that I would never want to carry one, unless I was in a position where it was part of my job (police, military, close protection etc).

Thanks for the quote Biker, that brought a huge smile to the face.

[Rex2010]

I don't think guns should be simply banned. It is a big industry and many people live on it.

However, as the rise of many criminals with guns, I think there should be tighter supervision as the purchase and use of guns.

anyway, it is a tough issue.

[Ancient Dragon]

Here is an interesting thread about the topic of individual rights to own and keep weapons in the USA. The original intent was to give evey American citizen the right to have weapons so that he can defent himself, his family, his home, and his country against foreign invaders (like England) or other people who intend to do harm. And that today is still the main reason. Americans are paranoid about any one or any nation enslaving them.

December 15, 1791

George Washington <former US President>: "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."

[Rashakil Fol]

In the long run (where "long run" means 10-20 years), gun rights don't matter. Once desktop manufacturing becomes affordable, people will be able to download whatever kind of weapons they want.

[Ancient Dragon]

You've been watching sci-fi too much :)

> in the long run (where "long run" means 10-20 years), gun rights don't matter. Once desktop manufacturing becomes affordable, people will be able to download whatever kind of weapons they want.

Unfortunately, technology will have a bearing on supply and demand. However, it's the arms industry that needs to be wiped off the face of the planet. How's that for irony?

[Ancient Dragon]

You can thank the Chinese for the arms we have today because they invented gun powder in about 850 A.D. Without that we would still be throwing rocks at each other.

AD - we will always find interesting ways to kill each other. I wouldn't blame anybody else for the current state of arms legislature in my country. We are the citizens/subjects of today - we decide (if you live in a democracy) - it's our responsibility and we should be held accountable.

[popin]

I kinda had a go at some people the other day about guns on another thread here so when i saw this in "today's posts" i thought id have a look i voted option 3 mainly because dont think guns bans would work all that well (especially in america where there is a culture of gun.. ? loving?) iuno not to sound offensive but I think (and i could be wrong here) most Americans attitude to guns is more positive than other nations.

earlier the question was raised are you scared of knifes/guns, my answer is your dahm right I'm scared of them how could you be sane and not be scared consider this the time it takes a bullet to stop travelling on its own (assuming it hits nothing but the ground) is the same as if you held another bullet next to the gun and dropped it as you fired, theres none of this diving out of the way that you see in the movies its either the guy misses by himself or you end up with a frigin funnel shaped whole coming out your back. as for knifes do you know the average kitchen blade is like 6 to 12 inches, you know how thick my chest is maybe 7 or 8 inches even if it where twice the size of the blade (24 inches thick not round) it only has to reach the middle to sever a major artery or organ.

thank's to happygeek on page one i was annoyed at the short sightedness of the comment that with out guns the dictators would take over at best its ignorant at worst its plain scaremongering to add to the list Australia doesn't have an open gun policy and their about as far away from a dictatorship as i can think of.

[H. B. Duran]

HELL NO.

It's a joke among criminals that they won't go in a store if guns aren't allowed. "Oh, no I was going to rob it, but now I can't!" The fact of the matter is, people kill people with sporks, pencils, knifes, cars, poison, ropes, pantyhose, telephone chords and on and on and on. Most serial killers don't even use guns.

As a legal gun owner, I have the right to defend myself and let's face it - the fire arm is an equalizer. Legally owning and/or concealing a handgun comes with responsibility. Many uninformed people assume that having them in our society naturally leads to a wild west mentality, where we're shooting each other over poker games and parking spaces and such. Not true. Those who legally own firearms are required to pass extensive background checks, safety courses and must keep it locked away from children. The fact is, you probably don't even know someone owns a gun unless they tell you.

Firearms used in crimes are most often stolen or obtained via illegal means. LAWS ARE FOR LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS. That means it only keeps good people from owning them. THAT makes sense.

Spoons don't make people fat. Swimming suits don't drown people. And guns don't kill people. It's a tool, just like a hammer or tractor or garbage disposal. You don't misuse those tools, and most people don't misuse firearms.