Lets talk about God - Page 4

[Kraai]

Initially not a necessity but my choice out of interest. After that it became a necessity out of respect for the creator and what he has done and is still prepared to do for my benefit and others who choose to worship Him. Rev 4:11

Thanks, you choose to, many others choose to believe also, in different and other gods than you choose to. All of you that believe in a god, also choose to NOT believe in each other's god, so all of you is also NON-believers in each others gods, and some of us, like myself, just CHOOSE to not-believe in only one less god than you choose to believe in. That said, I do respect your's and any other's choices in what you believe in or not.

Initially probably nothing will happen to me. Later, when God corrects all the problems that now exist on earth and removes corruption and the corrupt and those who want to do their own thing.. I will be disposable as no longer measuring up to God's requirements. Rev 11:18

Do you think all gods from all religions are like this, to punish/dispose the one that choose not to believe and do their own thing?

Because that's what he is! Why is it necessary for you to be a human?

Actually, I had no choice here, to be human. If a god, any god, is a god because it is a god, who made it a god?

Where have you been all your life? Have you never heard of, seen, owned, or read the Bible? The most widely distributed book ever, in all major languages and many minor languages doesn't equate to 'hidden' surely! Do you require every world leader to appear before you before you acknowledge their existence? Heb 11:1

So, what you say here, is a god exists because something you call the bible say so? Everyone must believe this, because one of the gods (which one?)described in the bible, says that what one reads in the bible is true? Each and every other religion also have their own version of a handbook, so lets call them all bibles for argument sake. So, the argument here is that one must believe in ones god because "the bible" says so, and "the bible" is the true word of that god because "the bible" says so?

You are assuming that God is not using me to defend Him? I'm not claiming that, but it is common practice in most fields of life to have others represent the 'top brass'. That is what God has chosen to do down through the ages.

This thread concerns talking about God.. so what is your point?

My point is, if a god exists, any god, and he is the creator of all, why does he need followers/representers, because a god, any god, is it not something that is supposed to be allmighty, and why would such a god then allow confusion in humans and not come out of hiding and phisically show itself to all mankind, like in all other fields of life, where you have seen the "the top brass" and you can even speak to them face to face, therefore you know they exist. Unless, this god exists, but is not allmighty, not godlike at all, and needs representation to keep in touch with all aspects of its "creation"? My conclusion is that a god, any god, may only exist in the mind of a person, and that a god did not create man, but man created a god (in their mind)

[crunchie]

Sorry but i don't think i have used any word of what I think about others beliefs I always make it very clear what is my belief any way I think not to post in this thread any more... and I also removed the references I gave in my previous Post which can bother any one

Was not aimed at you :). You just happened to be posting at the same time as myself and just beat me :).

[abelLazm]

That's ok :) I am in a bad mode and locating any one to fight with :) and I think I had overdone that

[jingda]

Quote

" God is with you now,
will you open your heart to Him today "

What do you guys think of this and is there any hidden meaning behind this??

[boyne]

There has been a number of excellent comments made in some of the posts here so far.. from the various believers in some form of god or in no god. Expressions that are very logical and reasonable from their view point, and reflecting their honest opinion.

As has been said.. it's not possible to prove many of these religious 'things' as they are the result of what may be called 'faith', coupled with personal experience. Perhaps our current negative 'god' beliefs have been produced by a previous distasteful experience of religion, or a questioning of why certain bad events should occur if there exists a loving god who could step in and correct the wrongs.

It's no doubt fairly obvious that I am in the Christian camp regarding my beliefs. (Previously I considered myself an agnostic or even atheist.) But sad to say, Christianity is and has been the major fomentor of wars, hatred and injustice in modern times.. scripturally speaking Christendom is a disgrace and is regarded in Revelation as a harlot.

I would like to ask an open question of all on this thread..

According to what you believe or don't believe about religion, what do you think is the future of the human race within our lifetime, and how will that affect you and your family (if you have one)?

[jingda]

Well, technology become more advanced some may improve human lifestyles others maybe used for destructive purpose. You mentioned within our lifetime, so this questions is a bit tricky. Most of you are older than me so what i see in the future will be different from yours. Religion might hate other religion for influencing on their people. For example muslims are being influenced by catholic and they join catholic instead of their own religion. Or all religion might be united together and form a new religion that consist of christian,buddhist, islam and others. Whatever our future maybe, we just how we will live and died peacfully without any worries

[backalley]

well i dont believe in religion , but i do believe in God.

Man has changed nothing about the cosmos - except attempting to load it with items of junk [joke], man has not improved the cosmos by coming up with a new version, man has not proved the cosmos wrong..

I fail to see the point. How can you prove the cosmos wrong? We observe the cosmos and try to understand its mechanisms. OK, if you go on the quantum theory, then the act of actually observing it will have an effect, but that's another story...

I find it difficult to believe that a God, so secretive and hidden would give up his/her mechanisms once humans achieved a certain level of technological ability - where we have the ability to annihilate whole worlds. Or is this prophesized in some 2000 year old Jew's dream?

[jingda]

The Mayans workshipped their own gods and according to their calandar the world will end next year. So guys, we have one more year to live

[boyne]

I find it difficult to believe that a God, so secretive and hidden would give up his/her mechanisms once humans achieved a certain level of technological ability - where we have the ability to annihilate whole worlds. Or is this prophesized in some 2000 year old Jew's dream?

How can you claim God is secretive and hidden when he has provided for mankind an instruction manual that is harmonious throughout? A manual comprising 66 individual books, written in language that anyone can read for themselves.. recommended.

Regarding the second part of your quote above.. read Eccl 3:11.. written by Solomon (a Jew), historically known for his wisdom. To get answers sometimes we just have to RTFM (non-expletive version!) :)

[boyne]

The Mayans workshipped their own gods and according to their calandar the world will end next year. So guys, we have one more year to live

Yah! That stirred up a whole lot of doomsday activity.. unfortunately for the panic merchants scholars decided that the end of the Mayan calendar merely reflected a suitable stopping point on their time cycle. Just as we did for the year 2000, before starting over again!

[boyne]

well i dont believe in religion , but i do believe in God.

Religion certainly has a lot to answer for.. but isn't there a difference in 'believing' in God, and 'knowing' God. You have posted here so I believe in you as a poster.. but I don't know you! John 17:3

> How can you claim God is secretive and hidden when he has provided for mankind an instruction manual that is harmonious throughout? A manual comprising 66 individual books, written in language that anyone can read for themselves.. recommended.

With respect, I have read the Bible, the whole thing, The New Testament, a few different versions, many times as well as the Quran and certain Vedic scriptures. I must admit to some ignorance of Judaism and complete befuddlement at Buddhism. I find most scriptures uninspiring. Take no offence in this, it is only my opinion. Considering the NT, The Word has been sifted, diluted, stitched together, unstitched and generally messed about with. The language issue has further muddied the waters. I would however recommend its reading and the holy books of other faiths, as judgements based on ignorance are no judgements at all, merely prejudices (obviously).

God, for me, if it exists, will be a mindless entity, serving no grand purpose nor striving towards a goal, expecting nothing of the motes he/she has created that have produced various types of energy and matter, including living organisms. It for me, would be a physical equation, which I, alas, will never be able to comprehend. There are mysteries within the cosmos, at which I marvel, but I cannot deem them miraculous. They are a puzzle to be solved, to be understood. This surely, must be a fruitful pursuit for a species? Confusing young minds with talk of venegeful, omnipotent superbeings does not, to my mind allow our species to evolve mentally.

[jon.kiparsky]

Confusing young minds with talk of venegeful, omnipotent superbeings does not, to my mind allow our species to evolve mentally.

Don't forget "cranky". Definitely cranky, that god fella.

[boyne]

I find most scriptures uninspiring. Take no offence in this, it is only my opinion.

It is refreshing to have discussed differing opinions as we have been doing in this thread.. the past 38 years in my experience have seen a dramatic decline in those either capable or willing to express their views of religion and God in a reasonable manner. Thank you.

I find it interesting that two intelligent persons can read the same information (the Bible) and come to opposite conclusions. That in itself proves to me the accuracy and integrity of the Bible, but the reason for this would probably be lost on those on the opposite end of the spectrum to myself.

I have appreciated the clarity of the arguments you have put forward although I'm obviously not in agreement with most of what you have said. Concerning the existence of God and how that affects us humans.. one of us is correct in his thinking and the other is wrong. Time will tell.

If the Bible is to be believed, then the consequences will soon be dire for the majority of mankind. For obedient mankind the outcome will be life in a paradise earth and eventual perfection.. no more sickness, death, hunger, wars. On the other hand if the Bible is not to be believed, then mankind will continue to deteriorate (despite science), continue to pursue greed and self interests, and destroy themselves and the planet in all probability.

To conclude this post.. As a tongue-in-cheek question.. is your one-eyed avatar deliberate or accidental? :)

[boyne]

Don't forget "cranky". Definitely cranky, that god fella.

He sure has been cranky in the past.. stirred up by those wayward Israelites many times, and the immoral and child-sacrificing Canaanites and others. Don't mess with the boss is the lesson I guess! :)

And he's not finished being cranky.. there's more to come.

But why be negative? When the Israelites did the right thing the rewards were outstanding and peace and prosperity for them was the result.

> To conclude this post.. As a tongue-in-cheek question.. is your one-eyed avatar deliberate or accidental?

Now now boyne, play nicely. :)

On the other hand if the Bible is not to be believed, then mankind will continue to deteriorate (despite science), continue to pursue greed and self interests, and destroy themselves and the planet in all probability.

I value your comments boyne. However, I fail to see how you can come to this conclusion.
Indeed, I thought that if the Bible was true then this would all come to a head at Megiddo, if it is indeed a place rather than a campaign / politial force.

Having been released from the shackles of religion, humanity will have to rely on secular morality and ethical considerations. Will that mean a more precarious path than the End of Days? Who knows. At least I can take comfort in the fact that I do good, because I am good (I hope). I curry no favour with any deity. I require no reward nor afterlife. My paradise is here and now. I would do anything to preserve that, as I believe, would most secular inhabitants of this world. As you would probably appreciate, the worst people in society often find their way to positions of power and direct destructive policies, be they politicians, generals or religious leaders.
If I have faith, it is in humanity itself.

[boyne]

Indeed, I thought that if the Bible was true then this would all come to a head at Megiddo, if it is indeed a place rather than a campaign / politial force.

Ah yes! The world awaits Armageddon - in film (fiction) and in reality.

The only mention of Har-Magedon (meaning 'mountain of Megiddo', although there was/is not a literal mountain, merely the city of Megiddo) occurs at Rev 16:16 as the place where the forces of God under Christ's leadership battle with the Kings of the earth (vs14) to defeat them.

Although some branches of Christendom favour a battle taking place at literal Megiddo, the location that witnessed many battles as it overlooked the Plain of Esdraelon, it would not be possible to gather the armies of all the worldly governments in this geographical location for one enormous conflict.

So this symbolic reference in Revelation depicts a global battle at which time those in opposition to God will be destroyed. Dan 2:44

Having been released from the shackles of religion, humanity will have to rely on secular morality and ethical considerations. Will that mean a more precarious path than the End of Days? Who knows.

Have you noticed, looking around the world, that religions are fragmenting into smaller groups, nations are fragmenting into smaller autonomous groups, peoples' morality overall is declining, ethics are constantly shown to be lacking in the religious, political and business environments? 2Tim 3:1-5 Does that bode well for the future welfare of the human race despite their array of 'gods' and other non-godly beliefs? Dan 2:43

On the other hand the Bible explains that these conditions on earth and in society today would occur and be an indication that God's day of the big clean up is close at hand. 1Thess 5:1-3

At least I can take comfort in the fact that I do good, because I am good (I hope).

Yes.. I've often had that said to me by those comfortable with their lot in life! But is it not strange that we should be the final arbiter of our own behaviour and standards, as though what we think of ourselves is important in the big picture of life? The justice system often mentions that those at odds with the mores of society show no remorse for their unacceptable toxic actions against others.

No my friend.. to consider ourselves 'good' is not a high enough standard. There needs to be a worthy arbiter of what is truly 'good and bad'. Rom 3:23; 5:12 Anything else is just self delusion at best and presumtiousness at worst.

I curry no favour with any deity. I require no reward nor afterlife. My paradise is here and now. I would do anything to preserve that, as I believe, would most secular inhabitants of this world. As you would probably appreciate, the worst people in society often find their way to positions of power and direct destructive policies, be they politicians, generals or religious leaders.
If I have faith, it is in humanity itself.

Perhaps I'm older than you.. but if not happening already you can probably look forward to.. the eyesight starts to deteriorate, hearing fades, physical strength lessens, and illness and disease can be devastating. And I won't mention the prevalence of mental illness in society today. Nor will I mention Alzheimer's and the loss of our reasoning power. Is that the 'paradise' you are so happy to be a part of. Those billions hungry and starving every day around the world.. are they happy and content with your personal 'paradise'?

I'm not being disrespectful, nor cynical because I believe that God WILL put things right.. but initially only for obedient mankind. Others sleeping in death at present will benefit later. Those who choose not to identify and comply with the requirements of the God of the Bible are taking a huge gamble in my opinion.. they're on a hiding to nothing!

But we all have a personal choice to make.. and it's not my business what anyone else does or thinks. I will await the reaction from the vocal minority on this thread to lambast my views, and invite them to offer their solution to the problems facing mankind, both now and in the immediate future.

My paradise is life itself. It does not mean that life has to be good, easy or wonderful to the senses. Sure, people have it tough. People die in horrendous circumstances. But that's just it, that's the big roll of the cosmic die.

I am good, I sincerely believe that. It is not arrogant to perceive myself thus. It is my opinion and I am thoroughly allowed to hold it. I do not need to be held in judgement by somebody else's deity, thank you very much. An extension of which, means that I will be held in judgement by that deity's followers, who give themesleves the divine right to judge others, often by spouting scriptute. I live by the laws of the land, I give to charity, I willingly give my time to others...etc. I do this not because I seek reward or that I am afraid of a terrible venegeful wrath after my demise.

A solution to humankinds problems will indeed come from humans. Vocal minorities may well lambast your views. They will not be in a minority either. You cannot claim that your Christian sect's beliefs are representative of the majority of mankind. You cannot claim to speak for members of other faiths or denominations. That would be a heresy and an insult to them.

[boyne]

I agree with much you say..

You are perfectly entitled to hold whatever view you wish regarding your concept of paradise, your personal degree of 'goodness', and whether or not you seek or want a reward for your present activities. You are also correct in saying that some will arrogantly assume the divine right to pass judgement on you and others who do not accept their understanding of their god and form of worship.

But please don't lump me in with those who have unbalanced views of their own 'holiness' and who unfortunately feel free to judge others. If in fact there is a true God.. then you WILL however be judged.. it's not your choice it's His! My intent is not to judge you or anyone, but to inform and educate those who wish to gain accurate knowledge, free from the gross misrepresentations - particularly in Christendom - that exist regarding the God of the Bible.

As a young child we are instructed by our parents and maybe other adults; at school we are instructed by teachers; in the workforce we are instructed by our employer; and then as adults we think we don't need a higher source to guide us through life so rebel against the concept of an omniscient God to guide us!

So Yes.. I acknowledge I am in a minority.. a bit over 7.5 million minority. That does not concern me, nor do I have any inclination to speak for members of other faiths. Many of the main beliefs of Christendom, if judged by their own holy book the bible, are self-condemning and don't need me to elaborate on. Non-Christian belief systems also have their own failings and schisms. If my belief system were to suddenly become popular, then I would have to reconsider whether I was an adherent of true worship or merely one of the masses looking for a quick-fix; an easy way out; to hedge my bets in case there is a God! :)

Ardav.. this thread has attracted over 1000 views, so we have managed to provide two opposing opinions for the many who have made the effort to read all the posts. Lets hope we have assisted some to a clearer understanding of their particular beliefs, and hopefully of the existence of God. And all undertaken in a respectful and constructive manner!

[Kraai]

If in fact there is a true God.. then you WILL however be judged.. it's not your choice it's His!

The question here remains.... why? What will be the purpose of this judgement, from a viewpoint not prescribed by this god's hole scriptures if the person to be judged 1. Never believed in this god's holy book as they studied another one and 2. If the person to be judged never heard of this god before?

[jon.kiparsky]

But please don't lump me in with those who have unbalanced views of their own 'holiness' and who unfortunately feel free to judge others

Really? What about this?

My intent is ... to inform and educate those who wish to gain accurate knowledge, free from the gross misrepresentations - particularly in Christendom - that exist regarding the God of the Bible.

And this?

to consider ourselves 'good' is not a high enough standard. There needs to be a worthy arbiter of what is truly 'good and bad'. Rom 3:23; 5:12 Anything else is just self delusion at best and presumtiousness at worst.

And this?

[if I stop believing in God then...] when God corrects all the problems that now exist on earth and removes corruption and the corrupt and those who want to do their own thing.. I will be disposable as no longer measuring up to God's requirements.

I think all of those could reasonably be read as judgemental. Certainly referring to all those who don't believe as you do as "corrupt" sounds that way, and declaring that another person's ethical system is "self delusion at best" smacks of something other than inclusive toleration of others' ideals - one could almost call it an "unbalanced view of your own holiness". And when I hear someone declare that theirs is "accurate knowledge" and others' views are "gross misrepresentations", on the subject of a mythology centuries old and hopelessly fragmented into cults and sub-cults and perennially squabbling within itself - well, then I know I see arrogance personified strutting around before me. "Unbalanced view of your own holiness"? Check. Feeling free to judge others? Yes, indeed.

You can be as judgemental as you like, I really don't mind, but please own up to it. If it's a problem for you, change it - just don't lie about it, to yourself or to others. There's only one person you're fooling here.

[abelLazm]

Dear Kraai can you please explain why are courts here? What is the purpose of law and order, judges, Auditors etc?????

[jon.kiparsky]

Dear Kraai can you please explain why are courts here? What is the purpose of law and order, judges, Auditors etc?????

Popular subject of debate. Rousseau proposed the notion of the "social contract" which seems to be more or less the basis for most current solutions. Basically: we, meaning society as a whole, choose to bind ourselves to a set of laws, finding that preferable to the war of all against all that characterizes the Hobbesian "state of nature". (Hobbes' most famous line is that "the life of man in the state of nature is solitary, nasty, brutish, and short". It's less known that this was actually a fairly accurate description of Hobbes himself.)

The fundamental characteristic of a just law, or of just governance, in the modern era is held to be that it is accountable to the people who are governed by it just as they are accountable to the laws, and that the laws must make provisions whereby they may be changed if they do not suit the needs of those governed by them.

Unjust law is that imposed by an unaccountable ruler, generally "for our own good", because we "don't know any better" and we "must be told how to behave". Unjust law typically protects itself and its representatives against defamation quite strenuously, often giving more care to that end than it does to protecting the rights of the citizens it is (we feel) bound to protect, as its end of the bargain.

The purpose of the law, simply put, is economic: it exists to ensure that a society can continue to function, by making it possible for people to live and do business, and by regulating commerce such that it continues to grind along, hopefully without sprialling out of control. Needless to say, it does not always fulfill this purpose, but it does a lot better than the state of nature unaided seems to do.

Any other questions?

[Kraai]

Dear Kraai can you please explain why are courts here? What is the purpose of law and order, judges, Auditors etc?????

They are secular. They judge the breaking of rules made by society in order to live an organized life. They do not have religion or a god attached to them and have nothing to do with any "holy rules" in any modern democratic country.

[boyne]

The question here remains.... why? What will be the purpose of this judgement, from a viewpoint not prescribed by this god's hole scriptures if the person to be judged 1. Never believed in this god's holy book as they studied another one and 2. If the person to be judged never heard of this god before?

I'm not sure what you mean here.. all God's judgements are prescribed in the Bible. If someone is an atheist then nothing said about God and his purposes makes sense to them, and/or there is no basis for reasoning.

But in answer to..

1)It is a persons choice which, if any, religious book they study. If, as I believe, it is God's sole right to decide who receives a favourable judgement, then those who dismiss His source of knowledge as unimportant have no redress if the outcome is unfavourable in their case.

2)In the unlikely event that an individual has not heard of the God of the Bible, then I am not qualified to give a definitive answer. The Bible does indicate that no righteous person will be overlooked, and to date enormous publicity has been given to aspects of worship in countries not primarily Christian. Truth seekers are known to respond and to seek information about this God who is unfamiliar to them.

[Kraai]

boyne, I am sorry, but you keep on answering as if the Bible and Christianity is the only true religion out there? My questions relates to all religion or no-religion point of view. To you, your Bible and Christianity may be superior to others, but to others, whatever they believe, in return are superior over Christianity. So, who will be the judge?

[jingda]

The kingdom of God is the place where God exercise his authority on Earth

[boyne]

You can be as judgemental as you like, I really don't mind, but please own up to it. If it's a problem for you, change it - just don't lie about it, to yourself or to others. There's only one person you're fooling here.

This is a discussion based on the subject "Let's talk about God" and that's what I'm doing according to my knowledge and beliefs.

I'm sorry if you feel threatened by an opposing viewpoint, but as I've repeatedly said.. it's your choice what you choose to believe, and in any case it won't be me doing any judging! Would you rather we all go silent on the corruption that exists in the political arena, the business arena and the religious sphere? Or do you not stay abreast of current affairs?

Surely, to point out some of that corruption shouldn't arouse the indignation of a reasonable person? Society thrives on debate and points of view.. why do you find it so objectionable to apply those criteria to this thread?

I happen to believe in a book that is supported by history, archeology, eye witness accounts that have not been challenged, and which book contains a cohesive and consistent theme which explains the past affairs of mankind and their future.

Your source of reliable information is?

[Kraai]

The kingdom of God is the place where God exercise his authority on Earth

Why does he need to exercise "authority" if he created in the first place, and why only on "earth" what about the rest of all the space around "earth"?