Debate me[ about the bible ] - Page 2

[Portgas D. Ace]

@ Portgas - your images do not make sense.

Don't make sense?. Are you twelve?

[Ancient Dragon]

Funny what you sya about teh contradictions. Yu don't just read the verses, you look around it for teh context - He even admits that is a factor when your read the editors notes; have youa ctually read this?. I will read teh moses one another time, infact its best you remind me though.

I didn't really say anything at all about the contradictions except to post a link to them.

[GrimJack]

What I find interesting is that the people who quote from the bible to condemn homosexuality do not bother to read what else is on the same page - all the things in and around the quoted text are 'equally bad'. Bible quoters generally pick and choose what they condemn.

[GrimJack]

Umm... there is substantial data to support that handedness is at least partly genetic,

I really like the 'Throwing Madonna' theory of handedness. Women who could hold their children quietly and throw a weapon at 'food' would have a slightly higher chance for success; children held in the left arm, nearest the heart would be quieted/soothed by the mother's heartbeat vs. a child held in the right arm would tend to be fussier and thus the mother would be less successful at bringing down 'food'. Humans are the only 'handed' mammal. All other mammals tend towards 50/50 left vs right handed.

[VernonDozier]

>> children held in the left arm, nearest the heart would be quieted/soothed by the mother's heartbeat vs. a child held in the right arm would tend to be fussier and thus the mother would be less successful at bringing down 'food'.

If there's a Darwinian advantage to being right-handed, even a slight one, then the left-handed folks should have all died off by now. Every generation should have a lower percentage of lefties than the prior one till with enough generations there are none left.

I'm wondering whether in modern times where we SHOOT our enemies and our food, having a lack of people who can shoot left handed could be a serious problem. Think about it. You're a platoon of mostly right handed folks and you're taking cover behind a building. You occasionally need to peer around the corner and shoot. A right handed person peering around the right corner of the building can shoot without exposing himself much. A rightie on the LEFT side of the building has to expose his whole body. Thus if I'm the bad guy, I'm going to be concentrating on ambushing that left side (which is MY right side). The platoon either needs to find ambidextrious shooter or a bunch of left-handed people. I wouldn't be surprised if they did a study of war and found that the vast majority of people run around buildings after each other counterclockwise for that very purpose. If you're a lefty you can exploit that. I can't shoot worth a damn rightie or leftie, but I'm definitely a really bad shot leftie.

I was never in the military myself. Does anyone know if this is a factor and if so, how do cops/soldiers train for it? Thread hijack I guess, but an interesting one.

[almostbob]

Yes, it was considered an advantage to have left handed riflement, to be easily able to watch the arcs on the other side.
spiral staircases in medieavl castles, are likewise, orienmted for the better protection of right handed defenders, wield ing a sword, than for right handed attackers.
there is a significant body of discussion on handedness in the military, junior offr are taught to maximise the potential of their backhnaded troops

[Agilemind]

@Azmah: "Are you sure the emperor did so to 'keep peace'?"

No we can never know the true motivations of the long dead it is just a guess like most historical interpretations but it fits with the general behaviour of the Roman Empire.

"Do you think God was angry?"
I think God doesn't exist so how could I think he was angry?

"He was doing it in love of the Jews; they were his chosen people, and yes, they did make mistakes and God brought justice - It was out of love and to teach them a lesson."
The jews were the ones who wanted Jesus crucified, how is making Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire help the Jews? And Constantine was a Pagan not a Jew before he "had a vision of a burning cross" while on a military campaign or so the story goes (but it is likely just made up by the historians of the time to make it a good story).

I'm hoping your not trying to imply that the Jews deserved to be murdered in the millions during the holocaust.

"Then how do you explain the miracles? If you think that the Bible is bad, then the Quran is worse"
1) I never said the Quran was a better choice to use as a moral compass I said it may be more accurate (to the original or to history) since it has been translated and retranslated less and has had less time to be distorted since it is younger.
2) miracles are embellishments, exaggerations, propaganda, metaphors, or mistranslations. There are all kinds miracles in the histories of Alexander the Great written by his personal historian, and widely believed to be entirely made up to be used as propaganda to maintain/increase the support of the people of his empire.

"I wouldn't say long after he was dead."
So 2 generations isn't a long time? How well could you recount the life story of your own grand father if they had died in WWII?

"It is also thought that archeologist have found remains of the Ark too. Also, remnants can leave the earths atmosphere too and some could be involved to make more lava - who knows, they're theories."
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about with the lava since lava doesn't contain water (its way too hot so any water that comes in contact with it evaporates instantly). Finding some old bits of wood is along way from an Ark. Plus there is the fact that humans still haven't seen every species on earth and we've at least explored all the continents unlike Noah so how could Noah firstly have built a boat large enough to hold all the species, secondly acquired 2 of every species from places so far away they didn't even know they existed, thirdly prevented the species from eating each other (remember this includes tens of thousands of species of insect).

Also if supposedly all this extra water just floated away from the Earth why didn't it all disappear? why isn't it still disappearing?

The Great Flood and Noah's Ark is scientifically impossible if your going to debate it did happen at least have the courage to say "God did it all" therefore it doesn't need to be scientifically possible. So we can go back to debating the lack of evidence for the existence of God.

"Genetic you say? Hmm, please I want more proof (even for the left-handedness)"
Type "left-handedness genetics" or "left-handedness genes" into Google or better yet Google Scholar (accessible from "More" on the Google homepage). And check the evidence yourself. Same for "Religious behaviour genetics" or "Religiosity genetics". Or better yet try "religious experience brain" or "religious experience brain stimulation persinger" to find out the part of the brain scientists believe is responsible for religious experiences (note it is also thought to be responsible for alien encounter/abduction experiences so the "God is and alien" idea might not be far off).

[Dcurvez]

well, i am not as you would say " A Bible Thumper" but i do KNOW this:
even the ones that say they do not believe in God..
i promise you, you have 100 people on a train that is screaming off a cliff..and i can guarantee you MOST of those 100 people will say something to the effect of "OH NO GOD...NOT TODAY..PLEASE.

and i also know that the biggest and the bestest lie that satan ever invented was to get people to believe that God doesnt exist.
(and it is really funny how some people can believe the devil exists yet they do not believe that God exists.

AND..
if you look deeply enough into it, you will even find that Satan himself knows God does exist.

so..i am really not sure where the problem lies.

if you do not wish to believe in Christianity..then believe this:
the law of things..
there is a flip side to every coin.
there is good and bad in EVERYTHING that we go through everyday. for instance..
you walk across the street..the good side?? ya made it..LOL
the bad side??? some moron slammed into you ..

let me ask you a question.
whats it going to hurt to at least believe that both the Devil and God does exist?
what is going to happen if you dont and then you die...and then you find out ..that they do??

dunno..up to you, believe what you want..but really think about it.

[Agilemind]

I say "Thank God!" and "Oh God what a moron!" and "Christ that sucks!" all the time it doesn't mean I believe they exist they are just cultural expressions. (Like how many people say FXXX for another reason than its actual definition.)

Christianity or religion doesn't have a monopoly on good and evil, you can easily believe in the existence of good and bad and have a morality without God/Satan or religion.

What if I decide to believe in a God/Devil and its the wrong one? What if God knows I'm pretending to believe? How can I stop myself from thinking and realizing my beliefs are false? Why should waste my time worrying about eternal punishment and whether some mystical being approves of what I'm doing when I could spend it making my life and those of others better? Why should I live in fear when I can live in peace? Why should I live a slave when I can live free?

I also find it disturbing that people consider the knowledge that God doesn't exist is worse than hating homosexuals, thinking women and blacks are property not people, thinking jews are equivalent to rats and should be exterminated as such, thinking God has told you to murder innocent people in His name, etc....

Parallel threading.. religion and handedness ;P

[Portgas D. Ace]

well, i am not as you would say " A Bible Thumper" but i do KNOW this:
even the ones that say they do not believe in God..
i promise you, you have 100 people on a train that is screaming off a cliff..and i can guarantee you MOST of those 100 people will say something to the effect of "OH NO GOD...NOT TODAY..PLEASE.

and i also know that the biggest and the bestest lie that satan ever invented was to get people to believe that God doesnt exist.
(and it is really funny how some people can believe the devil exists yet they do not believe that God exists.

AND..
if you look deeply enough into it, you will even find that Satan himself knows God does exist.

so..i am really not sure where the problem lies.

if you do not wish to believe in Christianity..then believe this:
the law of things..
there is a flip side to every coin.
there is good and bad in EVERYTHING that we go through everyday. for instance..
you walk across the street..the good side?? ya made it..LOL
the bad side??? some moron slammed into you ..

let me ask you a question.
whats it going to hurt to at least believe that both the Devil and God does exist?
what is going to happen if you dont and then you die...and then you find out ..that they do??

dunno..up to you, believe what you want..but really think about it.

Someone has been smoking a bit too much whoopy weed

[frogboy77]

Man up, when you're dead you're dead. Accept it. It will be lonely, it will be unpleasant, but it will happen. Take solace in the fact that you affected at least one other human being in a positive way. If you didn't, at this point it makes no real difference so don't worry about that either.
If i'm wrong (just possible), then if this is the system designed by a guy whom i am in the image of, then i really can do nothing he wouldn't do, therefor i qualify automatically.
I win.

[GrimJack]

>> children held in the left arm, nearest the heart would be quieted/soothed by the mother's heartbeat vs. a child held in the right arm would tend to be fussier and thus the mother would be less successful at bringing down 'food'.

If there's a Darwinian advantage to being right-handed, even a slight one, then the left-handed folks should have all died off by now. Every generation should have a lower percentage of lefties than the prior one till with enough generations there are none left.

Not true! Darwinism is not survival of the fittest. What Darwinism says is that traits that offer more chances for success will tend towards more reproductive opportunities. This would lead to, in this case, more right handed people than left handed people. This is not the same as saying left handedness is anti-survival and left handed people will all die.

Everyone jokes about the 'Darwin Awards' but they are just that - a joke. Risk takers die so you would think that risk takers would weed themselves out but they don't because sometimes it is the risk takers that survive and everyone else dies.

Darwinism is small, statistically insignificant effects over huge periods of time - it is not the idiot that jumps out of a plane without his parachute.

[GrimJack]

well, i am not as you would say " A Bible Thumper" but i do KNOW this:
even the ones that say they do not believe in God..
i promise you, you have 100 people on a train that is screaming off a cliff..and i can guarantee you MOST of those 100 people will say something to the effect of "OH NO GOD...NOT TODAY..PLEASE.

Your promises mean nothing - this is a pointless argument with no relevance to anything.

and i also know that the biggest and the bestest lie that satan ever invented was to get people to believe that God doesnt exist.

You do not know this, you believe this. And the actual quote is "the biggest lie that satan invented is that satan does not exist" not that god does not exist

(and it is really funny how some people can believe the devil exists yet they do not believe that God exists.

No, this is not funny - this is a stupid, made up belief of yours

AND..
if you look deeply enough into it, you will even find that Satan himself knows God does exist.

no, this is another meaningless statement.

so..i am really not sure where the problem lies.

Of course you do not know where the problem lies because you are clueless.

if you do not wish to believe in Christianity..then believe this:
the law of things..
there is a flip side to every coin.

meaningless blather where do coins come in to a religious discussion?

there is good and bad in EVERYTHING that we go through everyday. for instance..
you walk across the street..the good side?? ya made it..LOL

more meaningless blather

the bad side??? some moron slammed into you ..

not only meaningless but pointless too

let me ask you a question.

oka

whats it going to hurt to at least believe that both the Devil and God does exist?
what is going to happen if you dont and then you die...and then you find out ..that they do??

What it will hurt is your personal integrity - why should you believe a lie on the vague idea that it might help you after you die - especially when, if I take you side for the moment, god will you know don't believe so you will go to hell anyway

dunno..up to you, believe what you want..but really think about it.

Why don't you think. Really, why post blather that has no intellectual heft or point -- why don't you just think your beliefs through before you post.

[VernonDozier]

>> This would lead to, in this case, more right handed people than left handed people. This is not the same as saying left handedness is anti-survival and left handed people will all die.

I'm no biologist. I'm just looking at the math, but maybe the correct math depends on biology. I figured that there is a leftie gene. By your explanation, if you have that gene, you're at a disadvanatge, however minute, so you have fewer kids, so if 30% of people have the leftie gene in one generation, then 29% will in the next generation, then 28% next geneeration. There would be some multiplier on each gene. 1 would be neutral, 0.98 would be a slight disadvantage, jumping out of the airplane would be close to 0 or 0 exactly. So if being a leftie is 0.98 and you start with 50% leftie, then after 100 generations, you get (0.98 to the 100th power) times 50% which is whatever it is. Eventually it's 0 or pretty damn close to it.

This could be a much over-simplified view of things. I'm not sure. Since some lefties survive, there must have been at least some times where it was advantageous to balance out the Madonna scenario.

[Dcurvez]

Well, GrimJack
"i also know that the biggest and the bestest lie that satan ever invented was to get people to believe that God doesnt exist."

i base this off of the mass amount of people that believe that
1) they are in charge of their own destiny/fate-

if that is the case, then why is there so much suffering? if we are in charge of our own fate, of our own destiny..then why is the world in so much chaos?

2) That science has proven or disproven things-

this is an easy one to play on as it is so easy to cover up a "Miracle" or "Supernatural" event with something that our minds can easily believe.

For instance- take Noahs Ark: science has just told the world the size and weight of Noahs Ark is impossible. Yet, through God- ALL things are possible.

Science is uncovering relics from the red sea. how did they get there? how did chariot wheels end up in there?

3) that God doesnt exist- that He is just a way most of us to justify our actions
for example, look at Stephen Hawkings.

4) we evolve from apes or fish- if this is true, then why are there still apes and fish? usually when something evolves..the form they evolve from ceases to exist.

"If you look into it deeply enough, you will find that even satan himself believes God exists"

this is backed up by the Bible itself. it is written in Luke Chapter 4 and Matthew Chapter 4, as according to this "Historical Book"..Satan quoted scripture to Jesus.

Now, keep in mind that satan does know God exists, but he does NOT believe in His authority.

as far as the "coins" go:
this was just my way of saying the laws of life are never one way and not the other. even a door has 2 ways..open and closed..a coin has 2 sides..heads and tails..there is 2 sides to just about everything. so to believe there is good and bad is only logical..to believe there is light and dark, logical...to believe there is a good place and a bad place..logical.

"Whats it going to hurt to believe that both God and the Devil do exist"?
i did not say to FOLLOW one or the other..but to just BELIEVE that they both DO exist. and if you would read my post rather than RIP it apart, you will see...that this is only LOGICAL.

as far as the "Think about it" was:
i simply meant to not base your belief in one or the other based off of "popular" vote.

to actually take time to do some "soul searching" and make YOUR OWN decision- based off of what YOU feel, or think..not off of what others feel or think.

and on your post about Herod.

yes, there may be no historical record of this fact outside of the "Historical Book"

i found this explanation to this: and really, again it is left to the reader as to whether they believe this explanation or not.

http://carm.org/why-isnt-there-other-evidence-massacre-babies

anyways, i do not want to make an enemy with you- i am just posting my OPINION, just like everyone else in here is doing.

[Ezzaral]

> you will see...that this is only LOGICAL.
No, there is very little actual logic in either of your posts.

[Agilemind]

"if that is the case, then why is there so much suffering? if we are in charge of our own fate, of our own destiny..then why is the world in so much chaos?"

1) because humans cannot control every element in the universe/planet, they cannot stop earthquakes, prevent droughts, halt floods, or prevent volcanic eruptions.
2) because even what humans can control often they do not have the knowledge/understanding to do so wisely.
3) because even what humans can control there are trade-offs which they are unwilling to make eg. crime could be dealt with much more efficiently if everyone completely gave up privacy and were monitored at all times.

"Science is uncovering relics from the red sea. how did they get there? how did chariot wheels end up in there?"
Ever looked in some of the rivers/lakes near our cities and count the number of tires in there? or car wrecks? every river I've followed for 30minutes I pass at least one tire. You may as well be asking how they got there.

I'm glad you've picked up the argument I suggested, it requires less time/trouble to rebuke. Just because something is not explained at now doesn't mean it is unexplainable/miraculous. The origin of species was unknown and considered "God's work" and now we know that isn't the case they arose through evolution. The origin of the planet earth was though a miracle but now we know it formed through accretion of rock and dust after the formation of the Sun. etc...

Also miracles in the Bible have no evidence they actually occurred thus there is no need to explain how they happened.

"we evolve from apes or fish- if this is true, then why are there still apes and fish? usually when something evolves..the form they evolve from ceases to exist."

1) we did not evolve from the current fish species we evolved from ancient fish-like creatures that gave rise to both modern fish and land animals. Same for apes, although it is currently thought that chimps have actually evolved more than humans since our last common ancestor.
2) "usually" doesn't mean that the ancestral form always ceases to exist, in fact there are many "living fossils" that would argue the contrary.

"If you look into it deeply enough, you will find that even satan himself believes God exists"
Captain Hook knows that Peter Pan exists but that doesn't convince me Peter Pan exists.

"Now, keep in mind that satan does know God exists, but he does NOT believe in His authority."
See my Captain Hook and Peter Pan analogy.

as far as the "coins" go:
"this was just my way of saying the laws of life are never one way and not the other. even a door has 2 ways..open and closed..a coin has 2 sides..heads and tails..there is 2 sides to just about everything. so to believe there is good and bad is only logical..to believe there is light and dark, logical...to believe there is a good place and a bad place..logical."

Just because I consider some things good and others bad doesn't mean ultimate good and ultimate bad must exist or even an objective good and bad. For instance up and down subjectively exist while on earth but there is no ultimate up or ultimate down and in the whole universe there is no objective up and down.

"i did not say to FOLLOW one or the other..but to just BELIEVE that they both DO exist. and if you would read my post rather than RIP it apart, you will see...that this is only LOGICAL."
It is not at all logical and it would be very painful to believe they both exist while knowing they do not its called cognitive dissonance ->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

[FreddieBambino]

Weather Jesus existed or not is irrelivent to the question of God. I can start claiming now I am the son of God, and then 500 years from now, my followers would start referencing news articles and so on about my existence, this my followers would obviously use to claim God exists, regardless of how ridicilous my claims about being son of God is.

[mrnutty]

This thread needs to be closed now

[jon.kiparsky]

4) we evolve from apes or fish- if this is true, then why are there still apes and fish? usually when something evolves..the form they evolve from ceases to exist.

There is nothing even vaguely correct about this assertion - it isn't even sensible enough to be properly wrong, it's only meaningless. Blather on about god all you like, but please refrain from making assertions about actual things unless you know something about what you're talking about.

It might help if you read a book or something. I'm not convinced it would, but it might.

anyways, i do not want to make an enemy with you- i am just posting my OPINION, just like everyone else in here is doing.

If you make an assertion, stand up and assert it. Don't be a mushmouthed coward and pretend that your bald statements of fact are some mere opinion that you don't really mean, and which nobody can decently argue with. Sheesh. What's the point of talking to someone who doesn't believe what they say they believe?

[jon.kiparsky]

It must be lonely being an atheist. Believing there is nothing after death makes life meaningless.

You think so? I don't see how you could possibly believe that. After all, in your world view, the "meaning" that life has is not contingent on what you or I believe about that life, right? If God is real, and gives life meaning, then all life has the meaning that's given by that god, regardless of what we believe about it, no? I can't make god go away by not believing in it, right? So I can't make my life meaningless - in your terms - by not believing in it - that seems plain enough.

What you mean to say, I think, is that life must seem meaningless to the atheist, and I can assure you that it's not the case. I see no point in trying to argue that contention, you'll just have to take my word for it, but take a listen to Phil Ochs singing "When I'm Gone" - he makes the point better than I can, and it's a pretty song.
I think if you listen to it honestly, you'll abandon this "lonely atheist" notion.

[Salem]

Bible threads are just as long and pointless as the so-called book itself.

Face it, all it has ever done is given the terminally lazy an opportunity to stand up and say "YOU SUCK, GIVE ME MONEY TO REPENT". The "Prophet for profit" business has been going a long time. Why work your fingers to the bone all week, when you can just spout off some "fire and brimstone" crap for a couple of hours a week, and get lots of tax-free money.

Go around pretty much any town and village in Europe, and the oldest stone building will be a church (or monument to folly). A lot will date back to when the average peon could barely scrape together enough timber and mud to build a 1-room shack. How much money and time was sucked out of the community to build something so utterly useless.

Faith, in it's most extreme manifestations, is indistinguishable from mental illness.

If you manage to get to your teens without being exposed to it, chances are you are immune to it. It only takes hold when it is indoctrinated into you by your parents from a very early age. This I regard as being child abuse of the highest order. You don't need magic invisible space pixies to teach children right from wrong.

In the meantime, enjoy your weiners

[Ancient Dragon]

Strange that the Bible is the world's best selling book, estimates are in excess of 6,000,000,000 (yes, that's 6 Billion copies) in over 2,000 languages (and those stats are 20 years old). Link here. I think the atheists are outnumbered. That, of course, does not mean 6 billion people bought it, many people own more than 1 copy.

I have two copies.

Question is why do most faith abiding folks get lumbered into the same bracket that are brain-washed or fundamentalist?

[GrimJack]

Strange that the Bible is the world's best selling book, estimates are in excess of 6,000,000,000 (yes, that's 6 Billion copies) in over 2,000 languages (and those stats are 20 years old). Link here. I think the atheists are outnumbered. That, of course, does not mean 6 billion people bought it, many people own more than 1 copy.

We don't really worry too much about being outnumbered unless/until the believers start killing the non-believers again. WRT it being a best selling book, one would have to know what sorts of numbers those are - are the books being bought by individuals for their own use or are the books being bought in bulk by groups who give them away? It is true that I have 3 bibles in my library, but I also have a couple of Q'rans, some books of the dead from various cultures, Burton's Kama Sutra (divergence: Captain Sir Richard Francis Burton is my hero, my favorite author, and my favorite biography - though I only have a couple of his biographies - I did finally manage to get my hands on a Burton Society 16 volume set of his translation of the 1,001 Arabian Nights which includes his 6 volume commentary on stories and culture /digression), Popol Vuh (Mayan book of the Dawn of Life) - on my side table right next to me I have a translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls and The Aprocyphal Jesus which is a look at the early church and some of legends of the early church - much of the stories that did not get into the current bible but had a profound effect on the art and writings from the 2nd century to the middle ages.

But I digress....

[GrimJack]

This thread needs to be closed now

Didn't you start this thread? You can close it any time if the discussion bothers you that much

[mrnutty]

Didn't you start this thread? You can close it any time if the discussion bothers you that much

I can mark it as solved but that won't close the thread. The discussion isn't bothering me, its just getting out of hand. Where is the lock thread button? I fail to see it.

[Ancient Dragon]

only mods can close a thread.

[mrnutty]

only mods can close a thread.

Well then I'm asking a mod to close his thread now.