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"I ALSO SAID that the law of the country defines when a citizen is allowed to kill and when they're not, so please do NOT repeat the questions.
...
Also, some of the circumstances you've mentioned do really exist, yet people are still trying to suppress their own feelings in order to prevent harm. However, some countries still savage despite the advance they've made in technology."

That's an easy pass off. In a democracy you vote for the gov't, you get a say in what is legal and what isn't. So I'm asking what YOUR opinion is or what you think Islam says your opinion is? If you were writing the definition of what self-defense is which of those situations would you included and which would you exclude?

I have my own opinion and the answer isn't the same for every situation but I'm not going to list them here for you to base your answers on.

PS I thought of them off the top of my head based on news stories I've been interested in the past. Ethical debates are so much more interesting when applied to real situations don't you think?

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Well, what gives you right to say you are an all-knowing person?

I didn't say that, but I said that YOU are not an omniscient one!

Again, you are saying that people who practice, or teach religion are better then the once who do not. You have no right to do that, and it is incorrect. I can say the same thing about you. Your express your opinions, not backed up by any facts.

If you read it well, hopefully, you'll find that I didn't say it. I said that scholars are right (concerning their own religion). Look at the context and you'll realize it.

Yes, but mostly religion is passed down from parents to there children. Babies are forced to practice the same religion as there parents did, before they can decide what religion they want to choose. This is another aspect of religions I don't like.

Will babies still babies? Can't they change their minds when they grow up? Were you forced to practice the same religion as your parents? Anyway, in Islam, a person becomes responsible for himself when s/he becomes an adult who can depend on his/her own thoughts and acts.

If you consider religion logical, you ignore many scientific facts that prove God does not exist. Since no one can exhaustively examine every place in the universe, no one can conclusively establish the exististence/not-existence of God.

Well, this is not a fact at all. The fact that says God is the one who created this universe simply makes it illogical that God sits INSIDE the universe (as you imagine).. God has created place and time, so they do not affect Him and He is not bound by them because He has created them.

All countries commit crimes, and Israeli's crimes are far less then majority of other countries.

This is very very far from the truth. I don't know where you live, but I told you that the majority of the mass media lies a lot and hides many important pieces of news concerning especially the conflict between Palestine and Israel. Whereas Our local mass media is forced to tell what Israel is doing against Palestinians because Palestine is not so far from us, and people can communicate with their families (though difficultly) and know the news, thus it'll make people do not trust it.

It all started after Arabs invaded Israel, when it was created.

So, tell me how was Israel created? I'll tell you. They just came to Palestine from all over the world and stole the lands of many farmers and killed a lot of people, and they urged Jews to come to Palestine, and up until now they're stealing lands from the Palestinians. Is it not the biggest crime to just kick people out of their OWN country and claim it is yours?? This is absolutely nonsense. Israeli's politicians are very greedy. They just want to have everything. They placed Gaza under siege for years. They cut electricity, prevented food, medicine, and destroyed most of it in every sense of the word. They INVADED Gaza. They prevented the human-aids from reaching Gaza several times, and killed a lot of people who carried no weapons and tried to help the suffering people.
Originally, Israel does not have the right to be created in other country in spite of itself!!
Imagine that I came to your home, and kicked you and your children and wife and parents out of it, then I said "this is my home" or "God has chosen me to live here", how would you react? Now imagine that you decided to tell the police, then there was no response, or they only asked me to leave, how would you react? Furthermore, imagine that some chief cops helped me robbing your home and other homes around, how would your reaction be?
In fact, that's exactly how Israel is treating Palestinians, but you might know nothing about it because of the aforementioned reason.
I and the Palestinians and any FREE country over the world has the complete right to defend Palestine against the Israeli criminals. And the Palestinians have the full rights to give all they can to kick those criminals out of their country.
Jews used to live in Palestine among Muslims safely because Muslims didn't consider them to be enemies.

You said violence is not tolerated in Islam, expect in self-defence, but you still did not concusively describe what it means.

A very clear example is the one I've just mentioned.

AND I am part-Jewish, and I am not going to tolerate, you racist remarks and myth's about 9/11.

Now, I've become totally sure that you either don't understand what I write or don't read it and just answer like that. I've said thrice that I talked about it as someone else's idea not as my idea or belief.

Who declared there practices not religious, you?

This is another explicit example that you either don't understand or don't read.
I've just discussed it with more than 15 lines!! How are you replying then?? Strange!!

You are doing the same thing. It is the nature of humans-- selfish, lieyng creatures, but to survive we have to cooperate and think of others. This is still selfish. Tell me a better way to judge humanity?

This is a very clear example of you disrespecting me and the whole humanity. If you're selfish or a liar, please don't try to apply it to all people.

Cool, one instance in many. I can find a lot of good single deeds that Nazis did. But in general there rule did not bring to anything good. There is many Muslims, and Umar Ibn al- Khattab is just one of them.

Still, you're accusing Islam of being immoral. Umar Ibn al-Khattab was one of the four caliphates whom the Prophet Muhammad told Muslims to follow. So, what he did is considered as part of the Islamic manners and law. So, I'm not talking about him as a merely Muslim man, but as a source that the Muslims know they should follow.

You get offended at hearing facts. god (notice g not capitalized), did not create me, nor anyone else.

So, are you trying to offend me?? I've said many times that I don't get offended when anybody disagrees with the fact that they were created by God.

I got my brain from evolution, and I don't need "gods" help in anything.

Well, you seem like you're trying to tell me like "if God exists, He will not help me anymore and He'll punish me because I said such things about Him."
Heh! God is not a human to get enraged at hearing one of his creatures talk about Him like that.

I said it is not offensive, but it is rather annoying to hear religious people talk.

This is exactly what we call "intolerance". Check out your dictionary.

It worked for the Christianity. They forced people to belive what they believed so they slowly got converted to Christianity.

I don't know if it did for Christianity, but for Islam, it certainly didn't even happen.

so all of them would agree more or less on killing "infidels".

Totally wrong. I don't agree at all about it. All my society (and I know it much more than you do) do not agree about it. So don't say "ALL of them" and try to avoid mistakes by saying "more or less" because you're totally mistaken about the whole idea.
BTW, the word "infidel" is considered offensive for those who disbelieve in some religion.

Right now even if they did believe it, they would not be able to do it-- face it.

Could be true RIGHT NOW, but what about the old times? Why didn't Salaheddin, for instance, kill all the disbelievers after having freed Jerusalem?
Why weren't all the disbelievers killed before now when Muslims were "able" to do that?

and the rulers of the modern world is US and Europe.

This is what some poor American people think. The world is NOT ruled by one or two sides at all. You can say America and Europe are advanced. You can also say the the USA almost governs SOME Arab countries through their presidents or kings, but you CAN'T say they're the "rulers" of the world. It gives the feeling that the world is a science-fiction movie!

And I don't think it would be beneficial for Islam to try to kill all the "infidels".

When the Muslim scholars decide something, they don't fear the American or European governments. They respect the peoples all over the world, but they do not agree for the Muslims to get harmed, or for any part of the Islamic World to be damaged at any cost.

Edited by Hani1991: n/a

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Israel was re-created after the second world war, which allowed the Jews to return to their land after the Diaspora, before mohammed existed..
All they are doing is claiming what is rightfully theirs.

Votes + Comments
as going to say that
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"I ALSO SAID that the law of the country defines when a citizen is allowed to kill and when they're not, so please do NOT repeat the questions.
...
Also, some of the circumstances you've mentioned do really exist, yet people are still trying to suppress their own feelings in order to prevent harm. However, some countries still savage despite the advance they've made in technology."

That's an easy pass off. In a democracy you vote for the gov't, you get a say in what is legal and what isn't. So I'm asking what YOUR opinion is or what you think Islam says your opinion is? If you were writing the definition of what self-defense is which of those situations would you included and which would you exclude?

So, do you think that the so-called list you've written is thorough? Maybe the suitable question would be: For you, do you consider the situations you've mentioned to be existing?
Again, I don't have to teach you every situation you suggest whether it is so or not.
And I don't have to show you all my attitudes to everything in life in order to make you understand!

I have my own opinion and the answer isn't the same for every situation but I'm not going to list them here for you to base your answers on.

So?

--------------
If Islam was violent or intolerant, why would I even get involved in such discussions that cause me headache because of some ones who do not understand anything if I don't give them every single micro detail about my opinion. I'm really not interested in such discussions, but what makes me still reply is the fact that I don't like to see false statements spread about me and my religion and just stay quiet, though I do not get offended at hearing anyone say: "I don't believe in your religion." or "I don't believe in God."
I do not intend by my comments to make anyone here convert to any religion. I realize that most of the people choose their beliefs after thinking. However, it depends on the way they think. Of course, there is one true idea among all of these ideas.
We need to think deeply and search wherever we can to reach one true idea.
That's my point.
Thank You

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Israel was re-created after the second world war, which allowed the Jews to return to their land after the Diaspora, before mohammed existed..
All they are doing is claiming what is rightfully theirs.

First of all, be polite and say "before Muhammad was born." You said "before mohammad existed" writing the m in small letter case. This is totally rude!
Now, Muslims realize that Jews, (and notice here: Jews not the Israeli people), were ordered to enter Jerusalem during the age of Moses. However, THEY refused because they were afraid of the people in Jerusalem. Moses peace be upon him tried to urge them and told them that if they enter the holy land, they will beat those people. However, still they were afraid, and refused the orders. That's why God prohibited them from entering the city.

After all, where are those Jews that lived long time ago? Are theses Jews of Israel the descendants of those Jews? It's silly to think this way because the citizens of Israel come from very various nationalities. Their origins are far from Palestine.

Now I'll tell you something...
America was the land of the old Indians. So why (if you're an American) did you took their land? Isn't it their right to restore it?? They're closer in time than the old Jews.

Edited by Hani1991: n/a

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Actually there were 12 scouts who were sent to check out the Promised Land, but only Caleb and Joshua came back with a good report and Caleb said, "Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it."
Because the majority were scared though, they ended up wandering in the wilderness for another 40 years. Only Caleb and Joshua got to eventually enter the Promised Land out of the 12 scouts.
They still possessed it though :).
God did not allow Moses to enter because he disobeyed God.
No, I am not American. Please do not insult me :):)

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Will babies still babies? Can't they change their minds when they grow up? Were you forced to practice the same religion as your parents? Anyway, in Islam, a person becomes responsible for himself when s/he becomes an adult who can depend on his/her own thoughts and acts.

Yes, that happens when they are brainwashed for 18 years by there parents/teachers/relatives

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Yes, that happens when they are brainwashed for 18 years by there parents/teachers/relatives

Well, one or both of your parents were either religious or non-religious. So, according to what you are saying, you must have been "brainwashed" into being either non-religious or religious. If you have changed, it means that what you're suggesting is wrong. If you haven't changed, then it means that you're one of those who were "brainwashed".

God did not allow Moses to enter because he disobeyed God.

As for Israel and its issues, I don't want to discuss it anymore because it's not what we're talking about, and because you won't believe what I'm saying because you consider the news you see on TV to be correct. Anyway, whether it's correct or not, it doesn't matter, and it's not our problem now.
As for Moses, you should know that God didn't choose dis-obedient people to be His prophets at all. God chose truthful people. Moses wouldn't disobey God at any cost. All the Jews at his time dis-obeyed him. Only Moses and his brother entered the city.
Anyway, this issue is also not what we're really discussing.
Finally, I don't want to spend much more time on this discussion.
So, I'll unsubscribe from this thread so that I won't be notified of the replies. And I think I'll probably be absent from Daniweb for a long time as well.
Again, instead of arguing here and asking me any questions or arguments on Islam you can find the answers on the website I provided you with, which is:
http://www.elnaggarzr.com/en
He's a professor, whereas I'm only a person who is trying to be Muslim in my manners. So, this man knows very much more than I do about Islam and the Holy Qur'an.
Thank You

Edited by Hani1991: n/a

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Muslims do believe in the real Bible and Torah, not these ones which has been altered or distorted by many people across the history. There was a Muslims scholar who was versed in the Bible and Christianity. He discussed the fact that the current Bible is not the Bible that was originally sent by God. I don't know a lot about it, so don't discuss it with me :D You can search for his videos on Youtube.
As far as I remember his name was Ahmed Deedat. You can search for his videos that show his debate with many Christian priests and professors.

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