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Sorry, i guess my last post couldn't be labeled as observation of Islam related to other religions. Sorry, Jim, i cant go on on this thread. My believes, U know.

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i'm actually making the difference between beliefs and sientific facts that can be prooved.

And history is a series of science time and again putting the lie to beliefs in things that were at one time thought unprovable. So according to your distinction, if it can't be proven then it is a belief. Until it can be proven. So if we go back a number of centuries and make two lists, one being "things we know for sure" and the other "things we believe but for which there is no proof", and then step through the years from then until now what do we see? We see list number two shrinking while list number one grows. There are many instances of science explaining what was once thought to be incomprehensible. I don't recall any instances where religion offered a better explanation for anything which has been scientifically proven.

"I believe the sun travels around the Earth".

"I believe "bad air" causes malaria".

"I believe Iraq has weapons of mass destruction."

In any case, we are getting off topic. I responded to the OP for lying about the "facts" behind Islam, then again about his supposed use of logic to justify belief in Islam. He can believe what he wants. My point is that he cannot provide any justification for those beliefs. If I play in traffic I believe I will eventually get hit by a vehicle. That is a rational belief based on observation and experience.

Edited by Reverend Jim

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Sorry, i guess my last post couldn't be labeled as observation of Islam related to other religions. Sorry, Jim, i cant go on on this thread. My believes, U know.

I understand. Your religion doesn't allow you to use reason and logic. It expects only blind obedience. Don't worry about it. Your religion is not unique in that respect.

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A scientific proof of righteous of someone's believe if it is as esoteric as religion is? I wouldn't say no to this one.

Consider for a moment statistcs of good deeds (i'm trying to proove them right now) versus bad deeds (whatever reasons for them is)...

Not quite a proof, but i see some logic in it. Either we are lucky to be in a Universe of somewhat positive strivings among all other combinations (U can calculate odds), either...

I can't prove it, but i just feel it and i need it. I wouldn't go further than this, if U don't mind, i'm a scientific soul.

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The OP posted

Well, there are plenty of pieces of evidence that prove that the Qur'an is the word of God who created this universe. There are scientific proofs, historical proofs, and many others.

He made the claim that there was evidence and scientific proof to support the claims made in the Qur'an. Obviously he believes that this is not so esoteric as you claim. Since he made the claim I merely asked him to share it with us. It is difficult, if not impossible, to prove that something (in this case, God or Allah) does not exist. I would not attempt to do so. However, when someone makes a claim such as "this book is the divinely inspired word of the almighty", I require more proof than, "the book says it is so it must be true because this is the book of God". Generally people believe things for a reason. I just want to know the basis for that belief.

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brothers: if you people really beleive that the the whole universe, the space and time, the matter and energy, was created by itself out of nothing and call it a logical point of view, i wonder what kind of logic you have.
look and the things around of, and think foropenheartedly for some time....

there is one and only one God who created this flawless universe....

how can anyone be living atrue peacefull life in the scenerio like this where we see high crime rate, disturbance all arround, innocent people being killed and harrassed etc.

to know about the prophets, who is a true prophet and who is fake, you need to study there biography. there biography itselg witnesses that they must be true. but yes study from some authentic sources. i saw a link above where some verses from quran where misquoted, and wrongly translated, dont use such sources.

and about life after death. if i cant prove it true , u even cant prove it wrong. and it is true i beleive.

meaning of word islam:

islam: is an arabic word that mean to follow/submit your God.
Muslim: an arbic word meaning one who follows/submits his wills to God.

any christian or a jew ar any other human being is a muslim if he follows his lord.

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May Allah remove all the impediments in my speech and help the listeners understand the right message ameen

Islam and Logic is a very good topic
I appreciate you people for choosing such a topic.
As far as you are logical You will not see even a single error in ISLAM....!

Concept Of God In Islam:
If a person proposes that he has got an item of dimensions 1cm cube without any intervention of this physical world(he has got it from no where) we ofcourse will consider the person illogical and insane, then how can we accept that there is such a flaw less Universe,such a sophisticated HUMAN BEING without any intervention of someone......... This SOMEONE is Almighty Allah (Subhana Watala) having extreme powers and everything in this universe in his control................

and Allah (swt) says in Holy Quran Chapter 112
there is only one God,
Neither he has Children nor has Parents

These traits(children , Parents) are attributes of perishable entities
But God is Eternal

If two people control a small thing conflicts arise
But in arranging so many entities in the unverse or even in a human being there we find no such conficts............

Islam is one and the only way to God ,
One and the only perfect religion,
Islam is one and the only religion,,,,,,,,........

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the Holy Quran is the word of ALLAH

if you are logical you can understand this...........
if it woulf have been a word of someone other than allah then it was sure that there wud have been errors regarding the unseen things.......

It is mentioned in Holy Quran that earth moon day night sun and other celetial bodies revolve around their own axis which wa scientifically preoved some hundereds of years after it was revealed in Holy Quran......

for more concepts visit:

Quran Bible and science

Quran and Modern SCience

the concept of waters explained so eloquently in chapter 55 verse no 19-23....

If you still have doubt about Quran being the word of God then
there is something wrong with you
try to find the wrong thing within you...........

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@ jim

It's up to you to determine your purpose on your own

No jim you are totally wrong .If it is upto me to determine the purpose of my life then i must be fully aware of this drama in this universe and if i don't know it properly,i can't have a fruitful purpose.
one fact you should admit that the purpose have been defined earlier by this universe on it's own or by someone ,say 'Allaah' who created this universe.It is not my beleif ,it is a fact

The universe is not concerned with "why".

If it is all 'how' and no 'why' then you are one who is going to loose than gain.
Think of buying anything from the market don't the first question in our mind arise 'why to buy' then the secondary matter is how to buy.Then in this big matter of life and death aren't we on losingt side if we don't ask the same question to ourselves and try to find the answer.

at some point your parents had intercourse. Don't read anything more into it.

The thing you pointed out is true,but your answer gives me a feeling of your narrow view of thought.If it was intercourse alone that cause child birth then think of the number of babies that would have been born each day on this earth.Brother it is not the intercourse it is something else that brings babies to the parents.Think of those parents who cant't bring a child to themselves instead of all their efforts

Remember what it was like before you were born? Same thing.

if it will be the same thing then you cut out the purpose what fun are we here?

that their beliefs are in error

If their beleifs are in error tell them where they are wrong and correct them as per your beleifs!Simple

Except for a privileged few

who are these privilaged .can you tell me even a single individual without harderships in this life?

thinking should be done by weighing the evidence.

This is the good strategy i like it but for this yoou should first go through the evidence thoroughly not just weighing it on a beleif that they dont have any

his belief in a barbaric and outdated system?his religion is something that, by its own words in the Qur'an, it clearly is not.

how is his religion barbaric and outdated anyfacts or evidences to support your claim?
How can you prove that quran is not the word of 'Allaah' or the god whaatever you say?

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there biography itselg witnesses that they must be true

So the Qur'an is the word of God because it says it is and because it is the word of God then it must be true. That's called circular reasoning and it is invalid. That's like the old joke where a guy walks into a bank and is asked for ID. He asks for a mirror, then looks into it and announces "yup, that's me alright".

u even cant prove it wrong

I never claimed it was wrong. All I said was that this is an extraordiniary claim that I won't believe in without proof. Have you heard of Bertrand Russell's teacup, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Church of Last Thursday? They are all outrageous ideas that have as much proof as God or Allah or an afterlife. There is no reason to believe in any of these.

Neither he has Children nor has Parents. These traits(children , Parents) are attributes of perishable entities But God is Eternal

It seems that some people have a problem with the idea that the universe could have always existed, but not with the idea that God has always existed. If you can believe in the latter I don't see what the former is such a difficult concept. Believers say the universe must have had a creator, but when a non-believer asks, "then who created God", the response is "God is eternal". You can't argue both ways. If God can be eternal then so can the universe.

RE: Quran Bible and Science

This is what is referred to a a false dichotomy. "The Quran and the bible disagree regarding ideas in Genesis. If the bible does not make sense then the Quran must be correct." This is a logical fallacy. They could both be wrong but in different ways. It's the same argument creationists use.

RE: Quran And Modern Science

If you care to condense some points from this it might be easier to address here. But let's take a look at the quality of a few of these claims. For example:

"Have you not seen that Allah sent rain down from the sky and caused it to penetrate the ground and come forth as springs, then He caused crops of different colors to grow" Qur’an,39:21

Such notions seem quite natural to us today, but we should not forget that, not so long ago, they were not prevalent. It was not until the sixteenth century, with Bernard Palissy, that we gained the first coherent description of the water cycle.

Do you really think that prior to the year 610, nobody made the connection that crops grow better with rain and not so well when there is little or no rain? Anyone with a shallow well knows that after a long period of no rain the well runs dry and after the rains come the well starts producing. Ancient people were primitive, not morons.

An example of this is the statement in the Qur’an that life has an aquatic origin ( "And I created every living thing out of water" Qur’an, 21:30 ).

This is as vague as the bible stating "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground". Also, I believe the Quran starts by stating "Created man from CLOTS OF BLOOD". That's a little different from "I created every living thing out of water".

Whereas the Bible talks of the sun and the moon as two lights differing only in size, the Qur’an distinguishes between them by the use of different terms: light (noor) for the moon, and lamp (siraaj) for the sun.

Long before the Quran was written, the ancient Greeks were aware that the earth went around the sun. They calculated the size of the earth, and understood that the moon went around the earth. Thales figured out that the earth was round and Anaxagoras figured out what caused eclipses. It was Aristarchus who figured out that the earth went around the sun.

@Rouf_mir

It is not my beleif ,it is a fact

As has been said, you are entitled to your own opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts. If it is a fact then show me the proof.

If it was intercourse alone that cause child birth then think of the number of babies that would have been born each day on this earth.

Don't misrepresent me. I didn't say it was intercourse alone that caused birth. All I said was that you were born because your parents had intercourse. Obviously there are also other factors at work such as was your mother ovulating at the time, and was the resulting fertilized egg viable. I hope the rest of your reasoning is not this sloppy.

if it will be the same thing then you cut out the purpose what fun are we here?

I don't know about you but I'm certainly having fun. Especially right now. My belief that it ends when I die is only more motivation to have as much "fun" as I can while I am here.

If their beleifs are in error tell them where they are wrong and correct them as per your beleifs!

Saying "your beliefs are in error" and "you have no rational reason to have those beliefs" are two entirely different things. Same thing with "there is no God" and "there is no proof for the existence of God". The first is an opinion. The second is simply a fact, at least until someone produces evidence.

can you tell me even a single individual without harderships in this life

Everyone has hardships at some point in their lives. As for the privilidged, can you really tell me that Bill Gates, Paris Hilton and Harrison Ford don't have things just a little bit better than some third-world dweller who has to walk five miles and wait in line to get a container of clean water?

yoou should first go through the evidence thoroughly not just weighing it on a beleif that they dont have any

When someone makes a claim, it is up to that person to provide proof to back it up. It is not up to me to go looking for it. Any scientist making a claim must provide evidence of that claim. That's how science works. The scientist doesn't just say "here is a book. You can look up the proof for yourself". The OP claimed that Islam is a religion of peace. I gave evidence (by quoting the Qur'an) that contradicted his claim. That's how "proof" works.

how is his religion barbaric and outdated anyfacts or evidences to support your claim

Any religion that advocates the killing of people just because they do not believe is barbaric. I've already quoted sections of the Qur'an to support that claim. Covering your ears and shouting "I can't hear you I can't hear you" does not constitute a rebuttal.

How can you prove that quran is not the word of 'Allaah' or the god whaatever you say

Clearly you are not interested in a rational discussion. I have said repeatedly that it is up to believers to prove that the Qur'an is the word of God, yet you continue to ignore me. We're back to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Can you prove he doesn't exist? You made the claim - you back it up.

Edited by Reverend Jim

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brothers: if you people really beleive that the the whole universe, the space and time, the matter and energy, was created by itself out of nothing and call it a logical point of view, i wonder what kind of logic you have.

I never claimed the whole universe was created out of nothing. For one, I have no idea what "nothing" is supposed to be. Put that aside for now, the reason most people might say that something cannot be created from nothing is because that never ever occurs in people's normal life experience. But this also means we have never observed a God creating something from nothing either, so why would that belief be any less crazy.

In any case, the question of the origin of the universe (by that, of course, I mean the first nano-second) can only be the subject of speculation and hypotheses because it is currently impossible to observe and our currently best scientific models break down at that time. Claiming that you know anything about it is an extraordinary claim that would require extraordinary proof, and scientists will be all ears open if you present that evidence. Scientists are very open-minded, but they only accept things that have supporting evidence.

Currently, the scientific speculations about the origin of the universe include a number of different hypotheses. One that I particularly like is the fractal universe hypotheses, which is, in layman terms, kind of like saying that our universe resides in a kind of black hole (not actual black holes, but similar) of another, bigger universe, and that our black holes hold universes with black holes with universes, etc. So, the creation of a black hole (again, not an actual black hole) in one universe is what causes the "origin" of the contained universe. Another popular hypothesis is that of Stephen Hawking, which is more or less the idea that time dilates to such an extent towards the beginning of the universe that there is no beginning to be reached, and before the beginning, there is no time, because time is a property of our universe, and without time there cannot be a "before", and thus there is no "something created from nothing" because there cannot be a moment of creation (because there is no "time"), so there is only "something". "Asking what was before the Big Bang is like asking what is north of the north pole." -- Stephen Hawking. But, again, this is all just speculation, because the evidence of the Big Bang only goes back to 1 nano-second after the beginning of it, so that nano-second is wide open for speculation and you can even insert your God in it if you want (which is what you are doing), but it is all speculation (including your God hypothesis) because without evidence everything is speculations.

Religious folks have a nasty habit of asking really stupid questions just because they know scientists can't answer them (because scientists don't waste their time doing research to answer questions that are non-sensical).

look and the things around of, and think foropenheartedly for some time....

The thing is, some people, throughout history, thought that maybe just standing somewhere and looking around wasn't enough to learn the secrets of the universe, so they decided to look further than just around them. They created instruments that can look at the very small, and at the very far, and they learned to understand how our universe works. You are the guy still standing and looking around, holding an empty sack, and looking stupid because you don't accept what the rest of the world has discovered, things that you cannot see from your static and limited vantage point. Islam is the fog the surrounds you and the chains that keep you from moving to higher grounds to discover a world full of wonders.

If a person proposes that he has got an item of dimensions 1cm cube without any intervention of this physical world(he has got it from no where) we ofcourse will consider the person illogical and insane,

Yes, until that person provides evidence that he was able to produce this cube out of nowhere. If there is sufficient evidence to believe that he did what he claims he did, then you stop calling him insane and try to understand by what means he created this cube. That's how science works, first establish the facts by verifiable evidence, and then try to understand the phenomenon.

then how can we accept that there is such a flaw less Universe,such a sophisticated HUMAN BEING without any intervention of someone........

That's an interesting question which scientists have looked into for centuries, and we now have a pretty good understanding of it, backed by an enormous body of evidence collected of time, I suggest you look into it instead of bluntly discarding the hard work of thousands of people over centuries to explain it.

This SOMEONE is Almighty Allah (Subhana Watala) having extreme powers and everything in this universe in his control.......

Here we go again with the wild assertions taken out of nowhere. Any evidence for that claim? Without evidence, you can say anything you like, you are still just holding an empty sack.

and Allah (swt) says in Holy Quran Chapter 112
there is only one God,

You must have fun on this merry-go-round of circular logic. I tend to be a very fast thinker, so circular arguments give me nausea.

But God is Eternal

Then why can't the universe be eternal?

the Holy Quran is the word of ALLAH
if you are logical you can understand this...........

And if you are skeptical, you can discard it. Things which are asserted without evidence can be discarded without evidence.

if it woulf have been a word of someone other than allah then it was sure that there wud have been errors regarding the unseen things.......

Most of the "science" in the Qur'an are only the reflection of the vague understanding that people had at that time. I say "science" with quotes here, because to contain real science there would need to be elaborate expositions of evidence, descriptions of reproducible experiments that can be conducted, mathematical derivations, and so on. Postulating some vague explanations of this or that is not science, and that's all the Qur'an contains. Now, some of those vague explanations are somewhat consistent with current scientific knowledge, some are blatently wrong, but that's not the point. None of these vague explanations are any more sophisticated than what was already common knowledge in the middle-east and mediteranian cultures well before the Qur'an was written. And even if you find a couple that weren't common knowledge and were dead-on with current understanding, you still have to prove that this could not have been mere luck.

If it is all 'how' and no 'why' then you are one who is going to loose than gain.
Think of buying anything from the market don't the first question in our mind arise 'why to buy' then the secondary matter is how to buy.Then in this big matter of life and death aren't we on losingt side if we don't ask the same question to ourselves and try to find the answer.

We are sentient beings, we have reasons to do things. The universe is not a sentient being, there is no reasons behind it. Asking "why" about something that has no intelligence doesn't make any sense. The idea that the universe must have a "why" is merely a projection of our own experience as sentient beings onto something that has no intelligence. It is wrong. You solve this problem (of it being wrong to ask "why") by adding another wrong postulate, God. You postulate this intelligent being as the thing behind the universe just so that you can cast a "why" question on it. Suit yourself, but you must realize that you are simply fixing one wrong with another.

If it was intercourse alone that cause child birth then think of the number of babies that would have been born each day on this earth.

Dude! You need to learn the facts... you're making a fool of yourself here. Maybe this will help.

If their beleifs are in error tell them where they are wrong and correct them as per your beleifs!Simple

Arguing someone out of one unjustifiable belief by using your own unjustifiable belief is a pointless exercise. If you don't have an unjustifiable belief (like I do), then you simply need to show the person that their beliefs are not justified (which is what I've been trying to do here).

This is the good strategy i like it but for this yoou should first go through the evidence thoroughly not just weighing it on a beleif that they dont have any

Well, no one here has presented any evidence at all. I can "weight" that body of evidence all day long if you want, but the total sum I get is still zero.

how is his religion barbaric and outdated anyfacts or evidences to support your claim?

The scriptures speak for themselves. Just read the Qur'an. It is clear evidence of a barbaric and outdated system of beliefs.

How can you prove that quran is not the word of 'Allaah' or the god whaatever you say?

I cannot. But that is not my problem. I don't have to go around and prove that every piece of religious scripture is not what it claims to be. Because the person making the claim is the one who should show evidence for it. I'm not making any claim, I'm just not buying what you are selling.

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scientists don't waste their time doing research to answer questions that are non-sensical)

Yes they do, scientists do that all the time. That's why we now know the Earth is round and that it revolves around the sun. I also know of one who tried to prove a strong correlation between the rising moon and pregnancy. Or other scientists who study the breeding habits of flys.

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This is the way that science works:

  • observations are made about the physical universe
  • a hypothesis is formulated to try to explain these observations
  • the hypothesis is checked against the observations to see if it is consistent
  • the hypothesis is modified as required
  • the hypothesis is used (when possible) to predict results
  • if, after rigorous testing (by the scientist and by independent researchers), the hypothesis proves its worth as a predictor, the hypothesis becomes a theory that is generally accepted

Good science does not waste time exploring the non-sensical. Good science is not accepting the statement "this book is the word of God because the book says so". That's not good science. That's not any kind of science.

Edited by Reverend Jim

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Yes they do, scientists do that all the time. That's why we now know the Earth is round and that it revolves around the sun. I also know of one who tried to prove a strong correlation between the rising moon and pregnancy. Or other scientists who study the breeding habits of flys.

When I said "non-sensical" I didn't mean "irrelevant". You may find that some of the things that scientists study (like breeding habits of flies) are irrelevant, or at least, in your opinion. Judging the relevance of one or another thing is subjective, and also, the possible impact of a given topic of research can be hard to foresee. But that is not what I meant by "non-sensical" at all. Sure, scientists investigate irrelevant stuff all the time, depending one your assessment of what is relevant and what is not. But, what they don't do is investigate questions that don't make any sense (i.e., "non-sensical").

If you ask: "What are the inner-thoughts of a tree?", that makes no sense, at least, not until you can establish that trees have any kind of consciousness and a means to communicate their thoughts.

If you ask: "What color do rocks prefer?", that makes no sense, because rocks can't have preferences, or a means to perceive colors.

If you ask: "What was before the Big Bang?", that makes no sense, because, by definition, the start of the big bang is the start of the universe, and there cannot be anything before that. Like asking "what is north of the north pole?".

If you ask: "For what purpose does the universe exist?", that makes no sense, at least, not until you can establish that there is an intelligence behind it which could have created it for a purpose.

The point is that, in science, not only should you follow a rigorous procedure of testing, verifying and establishing a body of evidence, you also need to start by asking proper questions. Usually, proper questions are those which do not assume anything that hasn't been established yet, and for which each term is well defined. Anything short of that is "non-sensical". But, it is perfectly possible to ask proper questions (like "what is the gestation period of a fly larva?") that are of questionable relevance to our everyday life, but that's a separate issue altogether.

Edited by mike_2000_17: few things

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the big bang is the start of the universe, and there cannot be anything before that

Not quite true. There are some scientists that hypothesize that the current universe is just one of a cycle and that if the current universe contains enough matter, it will eventually contract resulting in another "big bang". Just because we can't imagine what came before the big bang doesn't mean that there was nothing. It might be better to say that we can't know what came before the big bang so let's not worry about it.

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One important aspect of science that I neglected to mention is that the hypothesis has to be verifiable. It is pointless to propose a hypothesis that cannot be tested either by experimentation or observation.

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I have found this thread to be very interesting and entertaining. People that read this thread should pay close attention. Those with such strong convictions/faith without any scientific proof (or even without basic common sense) are extremely dangerous to the rest of of humanity. If these ideas continue to proliferate all over the world, we are definatley in trouble. I hope that I as well as the generations that follow me are all DEAD before this happens. I highly respect other people and their opinions in general; but I must say that this has been an eye opening experience, for me at least.

Edited by JorgeM

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I am pleased that you find this interesting and entertaining. If it gets people thinking then all the better. It's when you let other people do your thinking for you that things start to fall apart.

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It is pointless to propose a hypothesis that cannot be tested either by experimentation or observation.

As a general rule of thumb, maybe yes. But astrologers do it frequently, e.g. searching for life on other planets, or extraterrestial life here on Earth. Fasinating topics.

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Astrology is not a science. It is superstition. I'll assume you meant astronomy. Astronomers really get upset when you conflate the two. Searching for life on other planets, or even just searching for other planets does not involve hypothesis. It's just gathering data. Unless you consider how they decide which stars out of the billions out there are worth investigating.

Or am I just beng anal ;-P

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quran is word of God , and there is no changes in it even after 1400 years .There are currently millions of muslims who fully memorised same exact qur'an down to the dots and crosses so to speak
These millions of people are spread in all corners of the world from as young as 7 yo child to 90 yo.

Had there been any alterations during 1,400 years, there would have been no way these millions of muslims read and memorised the same qur'an.
but if you are talking about bible and other religious books then you will find many versions of each , how will you explain it ?

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quran is a Word OF GOD , if you dont think so please visit this link Click Here
you can get positivity from any discussion when you are willing to understand others point of view istead of putting your point of view on theres ,
there are lots of other points in quran about modren science about universe about sea about human body , but for those , who are willing to understand.

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If religions truly desired its practicioners to live free and at peace with the world around them then they would not exist. To live at peace within myself means living in reality and in the moments of the todays. To be free to make my own choices implies trusting my own conscience and ceratinly not some dogmatic and archaic imaginary dictatorship (aka god).

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These millions of people are spread in all corners of the world from as young as 7 yo child to 90 yo.

No amount of belief establishes a fact.

if you are talking about bible and other religious books then you will find many versions of each

The Old Testament comprises writings from (estimated) 1400 BCE to approximately 400 BCE, and the New Testament between 45 CE and 96 CE. Both of these volumes are from multiple sources and are not even all in the same language. These volumes were copied by hand and translated many times. At each of these stages, changes were introduced by accident, for political or ideological reasons, or because the translator did not understand the idioms of the time. For example, in the Old Testament, an older version states that at one point Jonah was in a big fish. Taken literally, the only logical conclusion is that he was swallowed by a whale. In the idiom of the time, stating that someone was in a big fish was like someone today stating that he was "in a pickle" or in a lot of trouble. If you don't understand the jargon you can make some bad translations.

None of the four gospels of the New Testament were written by people who were present at the time of the events in the writing. Today we are familiar with the "friend of a friend" phenomenon and how that results in the spreading of urban legends. Imagine how events of 2000 years ago could easily be exaggerated as they were passed from person to person amongst a more superstitious people.

Because the Quran has a single (it is assumed) author and is written in one language and is a more recent writing, the chances of transcription and translation errors are lessened. That still is not evidence of truth or accuracy. There are many modern writings that suffer no transcription or translation errors but are still complete works of fiction.

It is interesting that seven of the nine planets discovered in our galaxy, the other two being Saturn and Jupiter, are similar to earth in their structure.

Wrong. First of all there are only eight planets. Furthermore, the outer four bear no resemblance to Earth. Two are gas giants and two are ice giants. Please tell me your definition of similar.

If we opened for the unbelievers a gate in the sky, and they kept ascending through it, still they would say: Our eyes were dazzled, Truly, we must have been bewitched people.

Show me how this is anything but a vague statement as opposed to a verifiable scientific observation.

there are lots of other points in quran about modren science about universe about sea about human body

Please state a few then so I can address them. And try to pick ones that are not so vague that they can be interpreted in so many ways that they are meaningless. Nostradamus tried that. Same thing with modern psychics. If you make enough predictions, eventually one of them will hit the mark, or can be twisted to do so.

As for the video, I'm sorry that I can't watch it at the moment. I am at the cottage where bandwidth is limited. It will have to wait until September.

@canadafred = I agree. My wife and I had a friend who once told us that she was sorry that because we didn't believe in God we would both go to Hell after we died. This is how her religion told her to treat her friends. I believe that I have to live with my actions and their consequences. I don't have the luxury of a get-out-of-hell free card (otherwise known as confession), something that, at one time, the church was willing to sell you ("You wanna go to heaven? Just slip me a few dollars and I'll see what I can do. I know a guy"). I try to treat people well, not out of fear of punishment or the promise of reward but because I believe it is the right and moral thing to do. I believe this in spite of all the religious people who tell me it is impossible to be moral without belief in God.

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as you said jim

Wrong. First of all there are only eight planets. Furthermore, the outer four bear no resemblance to Earth. Two are gas giants and two are ice giants. Please tell me your definition of similar.

then if you move back about 4 or 5 years then there were 9 planets , but after some more research pluto is droped from the list , so you dnt know about up comming researches but yes God knows every thing.

At each of these stages, changes were introduced by accident, for political or ideological reasons, or because the translator did not understand the idioms of the time.

as you accept that there is changes in bible which means there is doubt in its teachings , because human make changes in it according to their needs , so rules made by bible are not valid , but in quran not a single word changes in 1400 years , 1400 years is not a small time to change any book written by humans , islam is way to spend life in quran there are rules made by the creator of universe for humans to spend their life according to them ,in quran Allah said ,
1-speak truth
2-respect others
3-never kill anyone who is innocent.
4-avoid alcohol
5-stay away from voilence.
6-Islam is against rape.
7-respect women
.
.
.
etc
there are uncount able things are there in islam , are you agree with me that these things are good ?. if yes then please do not think negitive about islam .

I agree. My wife and I had a friend who once told us that she was sorry that because we didn't believe in God we would both go to Hell after we died. This is how her religion told her to treat her friends

jim no one decide here who will go to hell who will not.Allah knows better . but do not make your opinion about islam after just watching any muslim , if you want to know real face of islam then study the quran just to learn something and also the life of Prophet Muhammad . you will feel good about muslims. as every one know alqida is a terrorist organization . this does not prove that every muslim is terrorist , islam said if you kill a single human who is innocent thats means you killed whole hummanity ,you have to understand the basic facts that taliban and alqida are created and supported by USA against Russia. and after winning the war in afghanistan USA just left them alone with out any resources and proper guidness, you have to agree that now a days every day thousands of muslims are killed by non-muslims ,in kashmir , burma , Palestine etc
please do search on google and you will find that how muslims are treated by the non-muslims. one thing i know is that , media is just doing propaganda against muslims , you will not find a single incident in any muslim country where muslims are just runing a compaigns to burn bible to burn Churchs or to destory other religion , but in USA who claim to be a most respectful country , where every one can live his life freely , you will find these types of compaigns , lead by your fathers of Churchs . no muslim make any cartoons of jesus , but non-muslims make cartoons of our prophets , why there is no rules for them , why international media not taking any steps against them ,in israel if someone say , hitler is good man then there is death for him , but what if someone making fun of our prophet ? what if someone want to burn our quran ? . we are humans , we love huminity , we love peace , but on equility .

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as you accept that there is changes in bible which means there is doubt in its teachings

I never claimed otherwise. We are discussing Islam and the Qur'an. The validity of the bible is irrelevant.

but in quran not a single word changes in 1400 years

That is not proof that what it contains is true.

1-speak truth
2-respect others
3-never kill anyone who is innocent.
4-avoid alcohol
5-stay away from voilence.
6-Islam is against rape.
7-respect women

1 - sounds good

2 - also good

3 - well now, this depends on your definition of innocent. The Qur'an seems to think that anyone who is a non-believer doesn't qualify

4 - not a bad idea but a personal choice as far as I am concerned

5 - there are far too many examples already given inthis thread that prove this is not true

6 - who wouldn't be?

7 - hmmmm...

"Men are overseers over women, by reason of that wherewith Allah hath made one of them excel over another, and by reason of that which they expend of their substance. Wherefore righteous women are obedient, and are watchers in husbands absence by the aid and protection of Allah. And those wives whose refractoriness ye fear, exhort them, and avoid them in beds, and beat them; but if they obey you, seek not a way against them; verily Allah is ever Lofty, Grand." Qur'an 4:34

"The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" Qur'an 4:11

Doesn't sound too respectful to me.

are you agree with me that these things are good

I don't dispute that there are some good things in the Qur'an. The OP said that Islam is a religion of peace. The Qur'an itself decries that. Whether or not it contains some good teachings is not relevant.

Please consider that I have never claimed that all Muslims are bad or that all, or even most, are terrorists. I believe that most Muslims are good people. I also think that evil people can be found within any religion.

islam said if you kill a single human who is innocent thats means you killed whole hummanity

Again, this is open to interpretation based on your definition of innocent. If your definition of "innocent" is "believer" then by definition, all non-believers are fair game.

every day thousands of muslims are killed by non-muslims

A tragedy, but irrelevant to this discussion as to whether Islam is a religion of peace or that the Qur'an is the word of Allah.

you will find these types of compaigns , lead by your fathers of Churchs . no muslim make any cartoons of jesus , but non-muslims make cartoons of our prophets , why there is no rules for them

Not my fathers. I don't belong to any church. As for the other, it's called free speech. It may be offensive, but it's the cartoonist's right, just like it is my right to feel offended. A few years back, an American artist submerged a crucifix with a carving of Jesus into a container of urine. I was highly offended, not because I believe in Jesus but because I felt it was in bad taste and its only purpose was to offend.

So let's get back to the basics. Can you please give me a yes/no answer to the following questions.

Do you believe the Qur'an is the word of Allah as handed down to Mohammed?

Do you believe that the Qur'an is infallible?

Do you believe that Islam, as laid out in the Qur'an preaches a creed of non-violence?

Edited by Reverend Jim

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As for the video, I'm sorry that I can't watch it at the moment. I am at the cottage where bandwidth is limited. It will have to wait until September.

Don't bother. It's the Zakir Naik speech, hard to miss if you looked into the issue at all. His speech is pretty much worthless, just a confirmation-bias bath for its audience. He first pisses on atheists a bit, then he starts out with the classic watchmaker argument, which is easily debunked. Then the rest is mostly about stating vague Qur'an verses and conflating them to match modern science:

  • "The heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them." (21:30): Supposedly this tells of the Big Bang. I'm sorry but my mind does not stretch that far. By the way, this is exactly the same as the old-testament account of genesis, which is equally stupid, and predates the Qur'an.
  • "The moon has reflected light.": Wow, shocking! (sarcasm) It surely must have been revealed from God, because no-one can figure out that the thing in the sky that is always really bright and full produces its own light (the Sun), and that the thing in the sky that is not very bright at all and goes on a cycle from full to new is reflecting light (the Moon). Aristotle figured this one out, on his own, about a thousand years before the Qur'an, and btw, while he was at it, he also proved that the Earth was spherical.
  • "He made the earth egg-shaped.": First of all, that translation is a stretch already, because the official translation for that verse is "He spread the earth.", which is far different. Second, the Earth is not anywhere near the shape of an egg. It deviates only by a miniscule amount from being a perfect spherical shape. So, choosing "egg" as a comparison is a very poor choice by Allah, He should just have said "ball".
  • ".. the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit." (21:33): Apparently, according to Z.Naik, this is supposed to refer to the spin of the Sun and Moon. But, clearly, this talks about their individual orbits, not their spin.
  • Water cycle: So, apparently, one cannot believe that desert-dwellers were concerned enough about water to try to at least have a basic understanding of the water cycle, and instead, we must believe it is revealed truth from Allah. Not to mention that the descriptions of the water cycle in the Qur'an are much less impressive than those Dawah people make it look.
  • The barrier between salt water and fresh water: This puzzles me a lot, because muslims keep bringing that up, even though it makes no sense at all with respect to current scientific knowledge. Of course, salt water and fresh water can be mixed, just try for yourself. If the "barrier" refers to gulfs and estuaries, then it is hardly an impassable barrier, simply a smooth transition from fresh water flows of a river and salt-water circulating in ocean/sea. However, the most reasonable interpretation of the verses in question is that Mohammad is actually just talking about the strips of land that separate lakes and oasis from the sea, and noticing that is hardly miraculous.
  • Mountains keep the Earth from shaking: .. what can I say to that? Ludicrous.
  • Finally, quranic embryology: This, I have debunked already in a previous post, it is another ridiculous claim that "it is impossible to know these things without modern medical equipment", when, in reality, it is very easy to do so, and people had done it long before the Qur'an was ever written.

Of course, people like Zakir Naik enumerate a number of conflated "scientific facts" in the Qur'an (those listed above), but they conveniently omit all the bad-shit crazy "facts" supposedly revealed from Allah, such as:

  • Homosexuality is unnatural (7:80-81): Homosexuality is by all means a natural phenomenon found in all species on Earth.
  • Mountains can crash-down (7:143).
  • All humans were created from a single man (7:189): This is impossible from a genetic point of view.
  • The human brain is in the breasts (11:5).
  • There are eleven planets (12:4), or is it five? (65:12, 67:3).
  • The Sun orbits the Earth (13:2, 21:33, 35:13, 36:38, 36:40).
  • The Earth is flat (13:3, 15:19, 50:7, 51:48, 69:14, 78:6-7, 79:30, 88:20, 91:6).
  • Pharaoh's practiced crucifixon (20:71).
  • The earth is fixed and does not move (27:61).
  • All things come in pairs (male and female) (51:49): This is not true for the vast majority of all living things.
  • Mohammad split the Moon in half (54:1-2): Not sure when he reassembled it...
  • Stars are missiles (67:5) and can fall (81:2).
  • Semen, according to the Quran, is formed not in the testicles, but somewhere "between the loins and ribs." (86:5-7)
  • The Moon literally follows the Sun (91:1-2), or does it have its own orbit? (21:33).

This is a textbook example of confirmation bias. People in that audience come in expecting to be WoW'd about scientific truth in the Qur'an, and that's what they get, and the speaker knows that his arguments only need to appear reasonable because nobody in that audience is going to investigate them. It's a show for the amusement of the people watching it, who are pleasured by the confirmation of their beliefs, nothing more. Skeptical investigation of the claims reveal extreme weaknesses in his arguments, and I'm pretty sure he is perfectly aware of that, the sad thing is that some people think the garbage arguments that come out of his mouth are serious... IT'S A SHOW!

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