Manners, chivalry and sexism - Page 2

[Agilemind]

I think American woman are more independent compare to other woman from those countries.

From the limited research I've seen on the subject sexism & independence of women is more closely tied to: availablility of birth control, unemployment, education and inequality of incomes. Which frankly the USA scores very poorly on. The USA was also governed in the past by the UK and has inherited a far share of the culture. Sure the American identity is more based on personal independence (regardless of the reality) than other former UK colonies which may explain the self-reported differences (if they exist - has there been a similar survey in the USA?).

[Lucaci Andrew]

That right there is a warning 'this dude is an ####### and easily offended'. Any time 'eff you bitch' is your goto response (internally or out loud) you are not being nice for niceness sake you are being an ####### who wants to be appreciated.

It's not about whether one feels appreciated by being nice but rather "I care not if you appreciate me, or if you're offended by my actions."

@LM - I said British not English. I realise that to many across the pond, both terms are equivalent. To us non-English British (Welsh, Scottish, Ulsterians - you could add others too), there's a hell of a difference.

I wonder if the women polled would feel offended if another woman held a door for them. I've had women open the door for me, and although it doesn't feel particularly natural (cultural conditioning maybe?), I graciously accept. It doesn't feel as though I'm being patronized. The stock answer from me is "thank you", not "#### off you superior ####".

Of course, the door situation is just an opportunity to interact with others, strangers or otherwise. Some may take advantage of the situation like a self-deluded alpha male trying on some strutting one-upmanship BS, but seriously? Is it the door opening or the individual that's offensive?

[Reverend Jim]

I remember seeing a stand-up comic and I wish I could remember his name. He did a bit on something related. He said you have the right to be offended by something but not the right to arbitrarily label something as offensive.

^^ good point RJ

Found a good quote here about comedy standups:

Offence is a part of life. It’s not a great part, it’s not something we should aspire to create in others but nor is it something we should run scared of ever experiencing or inflicting. It’s just there. Maybe we shouldn’t make quite such a big deal of it?

http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/loved/tag/comedy/

Maybe, 'taking offence at' should not be something worthy of a newspaper article. There again, newspapers publish the most brilliant shite.

[BigPaw]

You must also remember that the British are considered subjects, and not citizens as in other countries. There is definitely an air of arrogance with many English people, I know this and struggle with it myself. The Scottish, Welsh, and Irish have different personalities to the English. An English person can be very difficult for foreigners to read. But, this said, some aren't so bad.

I think Englishness stems from the fact that rather than aiming high, they aim for average, but expect the rewards of 'high' despite their averageness, and this is why their arrogance is so obvious because to any onlooker they are just average. We have an unusual self-belief. :-D

[Ancient Dragon]

Sorry, BigPaw, but I disagree. I lived in England for three years during 1970s while on active duty in US armed forces. All the English people I met and worked with were very friendly. I didn't preceive any of them as being arrogant, except maybe the royal family, but that is expected (I never met them).

BigPaw - I can understand your comments, but I don't necessarily agree with them. I know 'good and bad' from many countries, including my own. You do however have a point of sorts, but I would argue that this is synonymous with a political institution (UK) that is well past its sell-by date. It served itself very well in its various guises for about 700 years, usually for the benefit of an exalted few, with reflected glory over victories against 'Jonnhy-foreigner' available for the common man. With political awakening and freedom, we try to re-evaluate our indentity and our place in the world. Many of us are finding the status quo no longer attractive. Being 'ruled' by a foreign country (Wales and Scotland always return a Labour majority, England returns Conservative - the UK government is Conservative [+ LimDem lackeys]) is not something that will be tolerated for much longer. I don't see the UK lasting beyond 2050. If Scotland gets a 'yes' result in the independence referendum, we could see the break-up very shortly. However, IMO, it's too early. Wait until David Cameron asks the UK whether they want to pull out of the EU. England may very well vote to leave, but I suspect the Celtic nations would go spare. BTW - realised that I'm going majorly off-topic now. Oh what the hell.

For some light relief: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUdaPNXC_68 (probably sums up some people's attitudes)

[Reverend Jim]

Found him. Steve Hughes here and here

[Reverend Jim]

@diafol - I don't know if you've ever heard of the annual Just For Laughs Festival in Montreal, but Al Murray has been there and he was great. They broadcast segments of the festival on the DCBC and I was lucky enough to catch him.

@diafol

@LM - I said British not English. I realise that to many across the pond, both terms are equivalent. To us non-English British (Welsh, Scottish, Ulsterians - you could add others too), there's a hell of a difference.

Maybe the term English has change over the years. I mean you're right about British has simliar meaning with English. I never knew that Welsh/Scottish/Irish or other never consisted themselves as English rather being identify as British.

Is it the door opening or the individual that's offensive?

You are funny.

I mean I held the door for a girl or a guy or guy and a girl. I receive smile and a thanks.

I mean should I ask more than a smile or Thanks?

@Agilemind

The USA was also governed in the past by the UK and has inherited a far share of the culture. Sure the American identity is more based on personal independence (regardless of the reality) than other former UK colonies which may explain the self-reported differences (if they exist - has there been a similar survey in the USA?).

That was 300 years ago. Compare to the other countries I mention America is the only country that really separate themselves from other countries that was govern by the UK.

@BigPaw

You must also remember that the British are considered subjects, and not citizens as in other countries. There is definitely an air of arrogance with many English people, I know this and struggle with it myself. The Scottish, Welsh, and Irish have different personalities to the English. An English person can be very difficult for foreigners to read. But, this said, some aren't so bad.

I agree that perception hasn't change over the years. It's still there. I don't think it's considered as sterotyping but maybe I'm wrong. This term is very popular even after all these long centuries.

Al Murray has been there and he was great

I agree - very funny, however, his humour with regard to xenophobia on this clip, fails to hit the mark with me. Again he seems to think Britain = England.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CS1cUIxBVg

[ChrisHunter]

Al Murray is just his comedic character, he's actually a well spoken and educated fella, completely different to the character he plays, as is the man that plays Frank Gallagher in the orignal Shameless series is the.

It's all about manners, politeness and respect, which you don't see enough of from the majority of generations these days (more so teenagers and people in their early 20's in the uk).

Whether you're male or female I'll still hold the door open for you. However I will only offer my seat to men or women that are less sterdy on their feet than me (be it due to their age, a disability or just a broken limb), or woman that are pregnant due to the fact that if they fall over the result may be a lot worse than if I were to fall over.

Some people might disagree and say I could just as easily hurt myself were as any of the abouve may just burse but the fact is I would rather avoid the possibliity of that happening to someone else.

If I think you look fit and healthy enough to stand though I'm not giving up my seat :P.

[BigPaw]

All the English people I met and worked with were very friendly. I didn't preceive any of them as being arrogant, except maybe the royal family, but that is expected (I never met them).

@Ancient Dragon
The 70's was a different era, since then there has been the 80's and everything that era exaggerated. We are just average achievers that know how to use the abilities of those better than us. This leads us, and perhaps others, to think there is something special about us, but no.

Slavery and psychology is what made/makes the English so successful. Oh, and music now and again. :-)

[ChrisHunter]

Slavery and psychology? It might have been the case in the past but whether you agree with it or not England is one of the most multicultural countries and accepting of all religions and races.

You only have to take a walk around London, Mancester or even liverpool to see that.

[ChrisHunter]

Sorry my last post was quite off topic.

I have a relative who lives in Florida and she doesn't like coming to England because people rarely apologise when they bump into you and are generally rude.

Living in the north west of England and having been to Florida a number of times I couldn't agree more, I can't wait to go again later this year.

[Ancient Dragon]

I have a relative who lives in Florida and she doesn't like coming to England because people rarely apologise when they bump into you and are generally rude.

She should go to New York, USA :)

[BigPaw]

Slavery and psychology? It might have been the case in the past but whether you agree with it or not England is one of the most multicultural countries and accepting of all religions and races.
You only have to take a walk around London, Mancester or even liverpool to see that.

You are more than welcome to disagree. There is a diversity of cultures here, but it's quite small when you compare the ratio with other countries. As for religions, with such strong secularism they're quite watered down in England, acquiescing to society trends rather than being examples. The only active ones I've seen are Jehovah's Witnesses, they call around quite often. Other than that it's a few random old ladies you see trundling by on their way to church on a Sunday, or the occasional Vicar having a rant on TV once in a blue moon.

The riots in 2011 and prior to this say a lot about the English subculture and the levels they will sink to. But, one of the biggest complaints I've heard about England is the food, a lot of it is over-processed.

Don't get me started on the weather.

But it does have free'ish healthcare, (which I am grateful for) a strong economy, suitable housing, and a universal language. That may be a good enough pay-off for some.

Another thing about the English is that they can be quite miserable, and I can't think why... :-D

@BP. Are you English? I hope so. Otherwise, it makes some uncomfortable reading.

I rarely feel the need to speak up in defence of my English neighbours, but you paint a pretty gloomy picture, not one with which I'm familiar. I've found the majority of the English people that I've met to be perfectly decent. With regard to multiculturalism - that's a myth. There is very poor integration in Britain as a whole. With regard to secularism - thank Dog! All the nations of Britain have seen huge changes in religious make-up and we all have a shameful past with terrible atrocities. Nothing unique there I don't think. The poor weather you get in England is nothing. Try moving to Wales or Scotland.

Riots are usually localized affairs and a couple every now and again cannot, surely, be used to label a whole nation of citizens (sorry, subjects!). Every single Englishman and woman that I know were absolutely appalled by the whole business. I know you metioned a subculture, but it is hardly representative and therefore probably not worthy to note.

However, I'd argue that the Universal Language is the one aspect that sets you apart from most other nations. An unwillingness to learn (or even tolerate) other languages is an Achilles Heel. Unless you come from a non-English background, most people living in England do not have a second language. And that is a great shame.

[mike_2000_17]

Stop the hate people. English people are fine people. They're very nice, if you can somehow understand what they say... Cockney != English.

The only trouble I ever had with English folks is when a drunken football hooligan puked on my shoes after a Sweden vs. England worldcup game I went to. It was an accident, they were sorry about it, or at least, they threw an empathic "Oh.. deew'itsh'u mate?" (translation: "Oh, I'm sorry, did we hit you, mate?"). I think the two things that the English are fanatical about is football and drinking, and they love to combine the two, with dubious outcomes.

[Reverend Jim]

With regard to multiculturalism - that's a myth. There is very poor integration in Britain as a whole.

I thought that was the definition of multiculturalism. Here in Winnipeg we have an annual festival called Folklorama where all of the different cultural groups in the City set up pavillions where people can come and sample the specific cuisine and entertainment (43 pavillions in 2012). When the different cultures get assimilated and lose their identities is when you don't have multiculturalism.

if you can somehow understand what they say... Cockney != English.

As revealed in Cockneys vs Zombies

trafalgars = zombies

Trafalgars
Trafalgar Square
fox and hare
hairy Greek
five day week
weak and feeble
pins and needles
needle and stitch
Abercrombie & Fitch
Abercrombie
zombies

Stop the hate people.

I fail to see the 'plural' here.

Unless you come from a non-English background, most people living in England do not have a second language.

That is iffy correct, that's why even if you speak Scottish or Irish or Welsh you still considered as speaking English even though you have that accent in UK.

I'm not sure. I don't think there's a law that require to speak just English in UK.

With regard to multiculturalism - that's a myth. There is very poor integration in Britain as a whole.

To explain - the multicultural thing has been hailed as a success in the UK, but in reality it's more like enclaves with very little tolerance. It's not working. I agree with the fact that assimilation kills off cultures, but my point being that the various cultures are not that welcome and have been perceived as a threat more than anything else.

Unless you come from a non-English background, most people living in England do not have a second language.
That is iffy correct, that's why even if you speak Scottish or Irish or Welsh you still considered as speaking English even though you have that accent in UK.
I'm not sure.

It's not iffy, it's a fact. If you can speak English, of course you will be considered English-speaking, just like a Frenchman who's learned to speak English. I don't see the point there. What do you mean 'that' accent? Why is my accent 'that' accent? There is no such thing as an 'English' accent - that's a myth perpetuated by movies. If you travel the length and breadth of England, you will be surprised at the difference in accent. Try talking to a person from Newcastle - that'll be an education. BTW - it's very much like a Welsh accent, so I don't have a problem with it.

I don't think there's a law that require to speak just English in UK.

It's changing, but there were. Although Britain used to have some six native languages if you count Manx and Cornish, only English was allowed to be spoken in most British institutions. A policy (not law) of eradication was pursued in some of our schools in Wales, with the 'Welsh Not'. If you were caught speaking Welsh, you had a wooden block placed around your neck with W.N. marked upon it. If you had this by the end of the day, you'd be punished. The only way to get rid of it would be to pass it on to another child caught speaking Welsh. What a wonderful system. The Celtic languages are probably the oldest surviving languages in Europe after Basque. They were 'British' languages long before English. And yes, I do have a chip on my shoulder about it ;)

[ChrisHunter]

The riots in 2011 and prior to this say a lot about the English subculture and the levels they will sink to.

@BigPaw - as someone mentioned above, the majority of the population were disgusted with what was happening

Also there are many different places to prey to which ever god you please. Just because you don't see people walking around with obvious signs of their religions doesn't mean that England doesn't have a diverse range of religions practising.

To get to the point:

• I've got to admit the food is VERY processed and I try to cook with fresh food as often as possible but there's nothing like a filthy burger every not and again.

• Welsh is a completely differnt language to English (Welsh for microwave is popty-ping (i think)).

• I'm one of those English people who didn't learn another language at school which I do regret and I aim to learn as much French as possible by 2014.

• All too often people tar England (and all of Britan for that matter) with the same brush because of all the negative stories in the news because they shock us more than good news ever will.

As with any country England has it's flaws but people come here for a reason and it can't be the weather or the food.

Now can we please get back to the point of Manners, chivalry and sexism in general please?

[BigPaw]

Now can we please get back to the point of Manners, chivalry and sexism in general please?

Yeah, point taken. I suppose I was just looking at the reasons behind England's problems.

...of course, Liverpool has none of these problems... :-D

You will find that people who form into cliques generally have an unspoken code of conduct. There are things that the group find acceptable or unacceptable, and these will be defined as manners. Then you can get into the complexities of how they change outside of the clique, or how they change in the presence of another clique. People can be very shallow this way. At the bottom of all of these issues is fear. People either don't apply good manners out of a fear of being deemed as subservient, or because their insecurities move them to try to exaggerate their status by demanding specific manners to suit their preferences.

The goal of good manners is to be of benefit to the other person. People who have good manners are not afraid of other people. Caring is important to our chemistry, but that chemistry is only beneficially affected when that act of good manners, or caring, is done with the right motive. When someone has been genuinely kind to you in whatever way, you know it. The reason you know it is for at least two reasons, (a) the act was selfless, and (b) experiencing that act, or even by their trying, by design, made you feel good to a large or small degree.

[Reverend Jim]

It depends on the person. When someone does you a favour there is an unconscious desire (in most people) to reciprocate. There have been many studies of this particular phenomenon. The most recent one I read involved doctors and pharmaceutical reps. How many times have you been in a doctor's office and seen paraphenalia from drug companies? I've seen big wall calendars, desktop toys, pens, notepads, etc. Even though more extravagent gifts are seen as a bad thing, everyone turns a blind eye to the trinkets even though the studies have shown that the size (expense) of the gift doesn't matter.

Before I retired I knew which people at the office were "nice for the sake of nice" and those who were "nice to put me in their debt". Because I was conscious of this I was prepared for the inevitable "I have a favour to ask".

"nice for the sake of nice"

They held doors open for you? :)

"nice to put me in their debt"

They only held the door for you once in a blue moon because:

"I have a favour to ask"

Could it be that they all hated you and you only saw through some of them? :)

Although Britain used to have some six native languages if you count Manx and Cornish, only English was allowed to be spoken in most British institutions.

That is alot! I really can't imagine dating a 6 UK girls with 6 native languages I mean I can't picture a girl like just for an example Kate Beckinsale or Rachel Weisz speaking one of those native language. The first word that will come out of my mouth is can you repeat that again. slowly. Most likely those girls will laugh at me or poke fun at me for not understanding a word of what those girl said.

I never thought that a UK girl is like a diva? I don't know if that's true or not I'm just saying.

[Reverend Jim]

"Nice for the sake of nice" in that they weren't being nice because they wanted something. They were being nice because that is the way they they believe the world should operate - with people being considerate of each other.

Could it be that they all hated you and you only saw through some of them? :)

There are people who were nice to me only because they wanted something. I know that they didn't like me and I'll tell you why. Our control centre (province wide electric utility) has two networks. One is the control system which is used to run the several billions of dollars of electrical equipment (generating stations, converter stations, transmission lines, distribution stations/substations, tie-lines to other provinces/states). That system is totally isolated from the corporate network. My group maintained the servers/workstations for the corporate network in the same control centre. Any apps that went on that set of machines had to be cleared by us (which pretty much meant me) before they were allowd on the system. Engineering Systems was another group, in another building, that developed software that we maintained. My job (other than my duties as system maintainer, server admin, db admin, application developer, etc) was to ensure that these applications were robust enough (reliable enough) to be trusted in the target environment. Some of the apps dealt with inter-utility contracts for millions of dollars worth of power sales, optimization of all of the water in the rivers that fed the hydro-electric generating stations, and more. These applications absolutely had to be available 24x7. If I thought the software was crap then it didn't go in. Needless to say, that made me very unpopular with Eng. Syst. After all I was a lowly programmer and THEY were the blessed elite of Engineers.

My boss kept trying to tell me that I had to understand whaat motivated these people. My response was always, "No I don't. I don't care what motivates them. They don't need to be manipulated into specific behaviour. They only have to follow the rules. And since we make the rules then what's the freakin' problem?".

Also, they spend three months developing a "web service" to get data from one external company and pump it to another internal division. Their idea of a web service was to deposit text files (containing requests) in a folder and have a server app continuously poll that folder for files. They put it on a test server and told the internal division that it was in service (not on one of our servers, not redundant and not available for my group to put back together at 3:00 AM when it puked). I spent two days writing an interface to the external company (which did have a proper web service) and totally cut out the complicated app that the engineers had written. They really did not like that. I retired two days later.

But I digress