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That is alot! I really can't imagine dating a 6 UK girls with 6 native languages I mean I can't picture a girl like just for an example Kate Beckinsale or Rachel Weisz speaking one of those native language. The first word that will come out of my mouth is can you repeat that again. slowly. Most likely those girls will laugh at me or poke fun at me for not understanding a word of what those girl said.
I never thought that a UK girl is like a diva? I don't know if that's true or not I'm just saying.

WTF? They're both English, so I doubt very much whether they'd speak any of the Celtic languages. DIva? You're the one that wants to date 6 girls. :)

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WTF? They're both English, so I doubt very much whether they'd speak any of the Celtic languages. DIva? You're the one that wants to date 6 girls. :)

I mean I didn't know they only speak English. I mean I wouldn't date 6 girls at once most likely one by one. I doubt if I have a relationship with one of them or married one of them either. Unless they change the way they are think.

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I mean I didn't know they only speak English.

I don't know. But I would have thought only one British language. Doesn't Weisz speak German?

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To explain - the multicultural thing has been hailed as a success in the UK, but in reality it's more like enclaves with very little tolerance. It's not working. I agree with the fact that assimilation kills off cultures, but my point being that the various cultures are not that welcome and have been perceived as a threat more than anything else.

Most British people I have met were perfectly decent people willing to welcome people from many cultures but they tend to trot out this line that "multiculturalism isn't working". If that is the case where are the racist riots? where are the immigrant houses being vandalized? Why are the Indian, Chinese, Thai, Italian, French, Greek, Lebanese etc.. restaurants full of white Brits? Why does my local church invite Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc... to speak and there is still a decent turn out? Why aren't people in traditional garb thrown out of black-tie events? Why aren't forgein students shunned in the Universities? Why are the British allowing forgeiners to be CEO of the National Post Office and Central Bank?

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Intolerance takes many forms. I don't think that you have to be an overt raving racist. You have a spread of experiences and attitudes. You DO have the skinhead mentality, although thankfully quite a small minority. We also have those who like to visit exotic places, eat their food etc, but quite frankly wouldn't want to live amongst the natives. There are those who blissfully live out their lives in utter ignorance that other cultures may exist. There are the 'discontented sheep', who hate the thought of having different cultures in their country, but are too meek or too polite to speak their mind. There are loads more 'categories' out there, but to think that people are tolerant because they'll eat certain foods or attend a certain church is naïve. The last few examples you give are more to do with the establishment than the feelings of individuals. Rarely has the establishment reflected public opinion. Strange but true.

This is not to say that British people are prejudiced, that would an awful thing to suggest, but I just don't buy 'multiculturalism' being a wonderful success, something that's often bandied about by politicians. Immigration is a massively hot potato - many communities feel swamped by the surge in the number of immigrants placed into the community. Those who complain are labelled racists.

Assimilation has its own problems of course. A critical number of migrants can change the whole economic, socio-political and linguistic characteristics of a large region.

Edited by diafol

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Multicultrialism has been more successful in USA than in other countries, most likely because that's how USA got started in the first place. I don't intend to say USA is perfect, yes there are a lot of racial issues. But we have been doing this for long time now, since early 1700's. We seem to have had more success than other countries assimilating people from many different cultures.

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I like the idea of having a variety of ethnicities. It makes the world a more interesting place. My only problem is when these groups want Canadian law to change to address their differences. Some groups demand that the laws of their homeland take precedence over Canadian law. Sorry. If you were so enamoured of the laws where you came from and you want to keep them over Canadian laws then you should have stayed home. I don't like the idea of French-Canadian, Japanese-Canadian, etc. Once you come here then you are Canadian. Period. Celebrate your roots but don't use your roots to insulate your group from the rest of society or to demand special status.

Edited by Reverend Jim

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I don't like the idea of French-Canadian, Japanese-Canadian, etc. Once you come here then you are Canadian. Period. Celebrate your roots but don't use your roots to insulate your group from the rest of society or to demand special status.

If using "French-Canadian" was just an unfortunate slip, then alright, otherwise, here's a boiling-blood rant:

That's Pierre Elliott Trudeau's "canadian multiculturalism" right there. This might be appropriate for small immigrant minorities, but Canada also has large non-immigrant "minorities", and this doctrine breaks down completely. My main issue with this is that it lumps French-Canadians (Québécois) like me as just another cultural minority to be assimilated, with more or less the status of an immigrant minority culture (is the province of Québec just a big cultural ghetto?). Québécois people didn't "come to Canada", we're home (and occupied), we won't become "Canadian" anymore than you would become American (we have lots of things in common and I love my neighbors (south and west), but that's a long way from assimilation). Trudeau created his big, strong, united, multi-cultural country, while making sure Québec was left out (and first nations too, btw), while at the same time, of course, making it clear that if Québec wasn't happy about it, martial law and the army is all it would get.

It's laughable when canadians whine about Québec "demanding special status", the truth is, we have special status (in language, in constitutional rights, in governance, etc.), it's just that canadians don't like it and would like it to go away, i.e., level out, instead of recognizing it and dealing with it.

Now that Canada is being ruled by a tight pack of right-wing nuts from the Prairies, with wildly different ideas of governance from Ontario or the more progressist provinces, I think canadians are starting to see what it means to have a federal government with overreaching powers and that can rule without your opinion or vote, and seeing your country being driven in directions you don't like, against your will. Québec has never known anything else in its history, other canadians are just getting a taste of it now, they must be regretting spending decades pushing to centralize power in Ottawa, while Québec was crying foul, kicking and screaming.

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It was not an unfortunate slip. It was also not a deliberate dig. I spent some time in Montreal many years ago. I struggled with my (admittedly poor) high school French and (I presume) the people I met appreciated the effort and responded kindly. I didn't meet a single person that I didn't like. I don't believe that cultures should be assimilated. I also don't believe that any culture should be elevated to "special" or "distinct" status.

is the province of Québec just a big cultural ghetto

I seem to have hit a sore spot. Those are your words, not mine. Don't try to claim that as my intentions.

Québécois people didn't "come to Canada"

Yes, you did. Just a lot longer ago than my ancestors. Even the first nations people "came" here from somewhere else.

we won't become "Canadian" anymore than you would become American

You say that as if being Canadian is somehow distasteful. What does it mean to you to become "Canadian" as opposed to Quebecois? I'm not trying to start an argument. I really would like to know. No one has ever taken the time to explain it to me.

and occupied

Could you please expand on that? I'm not sure what you mean.

I love my neighbors (south and west), but that's a long way from assimilation

Again, I have no desire to see the various cultures assimilated. I believe I made that clear. It's easy for me to sit back, watch the news, and when some Quebec politicians come on screen to say "those a$$holes". But I'm not singling anyone out here. That's pretty much my opinion of most politicians. As I said, the people I met while in Montreal were all pleasant and friendly.

martial law and the army is all it would get

Martial law was declared one tim and only in response to a terrorist act. Don't try to make it sound like you are living under the oppressor's heel.

It's laughable when canadians whine about Québec "demanding special status", the truth is, we have special status (in language, in constitutional rights, in governance, etc.)

So when you want special status that is a demand but if we protest then that is "whining". Bit of a double standard there. If you feel special than all the better for you. As long as that "special" doesn't come with special entitlements. Your culture is definitely distinct but you are no more special than I am.

Now that Canada is being ruled by a tight pack of right-wing nuts from the Prairies, with wildly different ideas of governance from Ontario or the more progressist provinces, I think canadians are starting to see what it means to have a federal government with overreaching powers and that can rule without your opinion or vote, and seeing your country being driven in directions you don't like, against your will.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Québec has never known anything else in its history

Except when they got "special" consideration. Here in Winnipeg we saw how that worked.

OTTAWA — Twenty-four years ago, former Manitoba Premier Howard Pawley ac­cused Prime Minister Brian Mulro­ney of lying to him outright about a 20-year maintenance contract for CF-18 fighter jets.

At the time, Pawley didn't have the paperwork to prove it.

Now he does.

Cabinet documents obtained by the Winnipeg Free Press through an access request show Mulroney was briefed regularly throughout the summer of 1986 about the matter, which saw Manitoba-based Bristol Aerospace ultimately lose out on a 20-year, $100-million contract to Quebec-based Canadair. Memos suggest he was heavily involved in figuring out alternative plans and consolation prizes to reduce the outcry he and his government knew would result from favouring a Quebec-based firm that hadn't actually won the competition on merit.

The full article is here

I see that one of your given names is Sven. That doesn't sound very French. Is it possible that that half of your culture has been assimilated?

Edited by Reverend Jim

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I see that one of your given names is Sven. That doesn't sound very French.

I've just bought some popcorn. This should be good. :)

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I don't know. But I would have thought only one British language. Doesn't Weisz speak German?

You are right! She does speak german when she was growing up. I didn't know that til you mention it.

Multicultrialism has been more successful in USA than in other countries, most likely because that's how USA got started in the first place. I don't intend to say USA is perfect, yes there are a lot of racial issues. But we have been doing this for long time now, since early 1700's. We seem to have had more success than other countries assimilating people from many different cultures.

AD is right about the US being very Multicultrialism than other countries. When I was growing it wasn't but now US is really Multicultrial. I hope they change or update those textbooks for the next generation to read about it...

Now that Canada is being ruled by a tight pack of right-wing nuts from the Prairies, with wildly different ideas of governance from Ontario or the more progressist provinces, I think canadians are starting to see what it means to have a federal government with overreaching powers and that can rule without your opinion or vote, and seeing your country being driven in directions you don't like, against your will.

I thought Canada is govern by UK not Frances even though there are a few Provinces speak French. Til this day, I'm really surprise UK let a few Provinces to have English and French as a primary speaking language. I never thought UK will be that flexible. I guess UK & Frances have some treaty that they sign a century or whatever.

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You say that as if being Canadian is somehow distasteful. What does it mean to you to become "Canadian" as opposed to Quebecois? I'm not trying to start an argument. I really would like to know. No one has ever taken the time to explain it to me.

I'm not saying being canadian is distasteful in any way. I was trying to describe the feeling that Québécois feel when it is asked or implied of them that they should be more part of Canada or assimilated or whichever way it is put. And if you think that there isn't such an implication or push, well, you just don't live here (but I am glad you don't seem to be on-board with that). The best comparison I could come up with was the similar push or implication that Canadians get for being more American. Differences between cultures, especially cultures as closely related as ours (QC, CA, US), are difficult to describe or explain in concrete terms, that's why I was trying to identify the feeling.

and occupied

Could you please expand on that? I'm not sure what you mean.

That was a historical reference. QC is, legally and historically, an occupied territory. We were first invaded by the British. Then, "we agreed" to constitute Canada (along with modern day Ontario), and by "we agreed", I mean that the oppressive British governance who ruled QC at the tip of a bayonette and at the end of a rope decided that QC would be happy to form Canada. After a bit of history, fast-forwarding through a century of butchering natives, francophones and metis people, then, the indepedence from British rule was obtained and a new constitution was drafted, behind the back of the QC province, then under democratic governance, which never signed that constitution. So, the term "occupied" is accurate. Obviously, I don't mean that as if it's anything like other occupied territories (e.g., the West Bank), but, technically speaking, it is.

Martial law was declared one time and only in response to a terrorist act. Don't try to make it sound like you are living under the oppressor's heel.

The FLQ was a bad episode for sure, but it was hardly a terrorist organization, more like a band of bumbling baffoons, about a dozen 20 year old kids. Trudeau and the army went ballistic and arbitrarily arrested hundreds of people. That was Trudeau shaking his fist, nothing else. I know that English-Canadian were told of some elaborate terrorist plot to overthrow the government and take siege of Ottawa, that was just a load of BS to justify martial law. If Trudeau was scared of anything, it was for his own life because in the times before that he had been such an arrogant piece of manure to the Québécois that I wouldn't be surprise if he constantly looked over his shoulder during those volatile times. As the saying goes, when Trudeau lived in Ottawa, he used cross over to Québec (Hull/Gatineau) several times a day, to make sure he pissed on Québec as much as he humanly could.

So, today we don't live "under the oppressor's heel", of course not. But the messages have been loud and clear.

Except when they got "special" consideration. Here in Winnipeg we saw how that worked.

Sure, QC did get some favors here and there, whenever it was the political flavor of the month. So did many other provinces too, and very often to the detriment of QC too. I didn't really keep a tally stick on that. It's mostly anecdotal anyways. The federal government also drove the car manufacturing out of QC and into Ontario through very heavy subsidies. These kinds of kick-backs come and go. Whenever QC is useful to a federal party, they throw a dog a bone, but they do that with all regions that are likely to swing a vote (and federal votes are quite volatile in QC because people here just don't care about the federal government or its parties).

I see that one of your given names is Sven. That doesn't sound very French. Is it possible that that half of your culture has been assimilated?

Yeah. My name is Swedish. My father is Swedish. So was my grand-father, Sven Persson. My grand-mother on my Swedish side was (I think) a second-generation Hungarian immigrant. My grand-father on my Canadian side was of French descent (back to Nouvelle-France, colonists from northern France). My grand-mother on my Canadian side was of Irish descent (a few generations back). It is also quite likely that I have some native-american descent too (my family roots being mostly from the northern parts of QC).

Is there anything else you need to know about my dead ancestors to appose your judgement on me?

I grew up in Québec, that makes me a Québécois / French-canadian / whatever. In any case, I consider that whatever it is that you spontaneously answer when someone asks you where you're from is where you're from, my spontaneous response has always been QC. I do have a personal multi-cultural view on things, given that my father immigrated to Canada and that I have fairly strong ties to my Swedish heritage (speak the language, have lived there for some years, still in contact with aunts / uncles / cousins, etc.). But that's not really under discussion here. Discussing my father's journey of assimilation into Québécois culture would be way too long. All I can say is that it is in no way comparable to French-canadian culture within Canada, and citing "French-Canadian" alongside an immigrant minority culture group like "Japanese-Canadian" is atrociously misguided. Would an Englishman say:

"I don't like this idea of 'Welsh people', or 'English-Indian', etc. Once you come here then you are English. Period."

I don't think diafol would appreciate that very much.

I've just bought some popcorn. This should be good. :)

Was it as good as you hoped?

Til this day, I'm really surprise UK let a few Provinces to have English and French as a primary speaking language. I never thought UK will be that flexible.

They weren't that flexible. The British empire did pretty much everything they could to make the French language (and catholic religion) disappear from their Canadian colonies. There were just too many French people in (modern-day) Québec for them to succeed, but they mostly prevailed everywhere else (in French colonies around the Great Lakes, including in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Michigan, Minnesota, etc., although in the Maritimes and in Louisiana some remain today (Acadien and Cajun, respectively)). In QC, only about 30-40 years ago, if you had any kind of French accent when speaking English or if you had a French name, there was pretty much no way you could hope for a job better than what is roughly minimum wage today. This has been changing, but there is still a strong class and cultural divide.

Edited by mike_2000_17: added response

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Sorry, don't want to cut across the debate, but

Would an Englishman say:
"I don't like this idea of 'Welsh people', or 'English-Indian', etc. Once you come here then you are English. Period."

Unfortunately, some move to Wales and say things like that.

Edited by diafol

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I have fairly strong ties to my Swedish heritage (speak the language, have lived there for some years, still in contact with aunts / uncles / cousins, etc.)

It's good that you keep the ties. My grandparents (on my father's side) came here from Holland in the late 1800s. My dad grew up speaking very little of the language. I grew up speaking none. My Mother's mother was Irish and her father was English. I grew up (regrettably) speaking only English. Both of my boys spent grades 1-12 in French immersion.

When I say I don't like French Canadian, Japanese-Canadian, etc. I mean that I am opposed to labels that divide us rather than unite us. It is not an attempt to marginalize any particular sub-culture.

As for history, it is clear that we grew up being taught a somewhat different version of that. I know from other reading that when the history books are written by one side, the other side(s) tend to get portrayed in a not so favourable light. Look at how the Carthaginians are portrayed in the history books as written by the Romans.

Sure, QC did get some favors here and there, whenever it was the political flavor of the month. So did many other provinces too, and very often to the detriment of QC too.

As far as I know, my province (Manitoba) has typically gotten the short end of that stick. In no election has Manitoba ever been considered a swing province. Federal elections are decided before the Manitoba polls are even closed.

As the saying goes, when Trudeau lived in Ottawa, he used cross over to Québec (Hull/Gatineau) several times a day, to make sure he pissed on Québec as much as he humanly could.

I admired the man's intellect and his refusal to bow before the US. However, I disagreed with most of his policies and I thought his arrogance was by far his worst trait.

There is a lot of talk going on at home here about the "Idle No More" movement. All we really hear (reported) is the rhetoric and screaming from both sides. There doesn't seem to be any intelligent discussion going on. Just like Parliament. Neither side goes away feeling like anything was accomplished. I'm glad you clarified a number of points. I think I learned something here. I hope you did too.

Edited by Reverend Jim

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I think I realzied that British girls are hard to understand base on this thread. I mean if I was to held the door for the young lady and all of the sudden she say something bad or nasty. It might hurt my feelings and I'll take it personal.

I mean I know American girls have manners. I don't know about Canadian girls. It shouldn't be as bad as British girls mention in this thread but the thing is I'm not sure how to treated a Canadian girls because either you treated them as English or treated them as French?

Most likely the Canadian girls will curse me out in French if I did something wrong.

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I'm not sure how to treated a Canadian girls because either you treated them as English or treated them as French?

That's an "interesting" dichotomy. It got me thinking, I don't know how to treat Polish girls, should I treat them as Chinese or as Swahili?... what about just treating them as best you can, and hope for the best. If she curses at you, well, water under the bridge.. next time you'll do better.

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I don't know how to treat Polish girls, should I treat them as Chinese or as Swahili?.

I can't answer that one.

what about just treating them as best you can, and hope for the best. If she curses at you, well, water under the bridge.. next time you'll do better.

LOL. How would I do better if I don't understand what Canadian girls saying?

You're from Canada. You must be a very charming guy that Canadian girls won't curse you at all, meaning you understand them as English and as French. It's a tough assignment.

I don't think French girls are as bad as those British girls in this thread.

I don't know.

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I'm not sure how to treated a Canadian girls because either you treated them as English or treated them as French?

How about treating them as you'd like to be treated? You know, like a person. As Professor Henry Higgins said, "the same manners for everyone". Of course, tit for tat applies as well. I'm not a complete idiot.

I don't think French girls are as bad as those British girls in this thread.

It's when we start labeling all people based on stereotypes that we get into serious trouble. Stereotypes are based on what "they" (other people) say and it's always easier to let other people do our thinking for us. Labeling all French girls or English girls as bad is just plain wrong.

Here in Winnipeg we have the highest percentage native population of any Canadian City. The stereotypical "Indian" is lazy, drunk, and quite likely a thief. These are the ones that make the news. I've worked with about a dozen first nations people back in my construction summer job days. Only one didn't pull his weight. And that same one used to nip off now and then for a snort. That's one in twelve. There were far more lazy white guys on the various crews and several of them would regularly get high while working. Nobody goes around saying all white guys are lazy, drunk, etc. So much for stereotypes.

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It's when we start labeling all people based on stereotypes that we get into serious trouble. Stereotypes are based on what "they" (other people) say and it's always easier to let other people do our thinking for us.

I agree. To me, it's all about Bayesian inference. It's OK to have some a priori ideas or stereotypes about some people or some culture, as long as you know that these a priori ideas are weak and subject to change as you are faced with real life evidence / experiences. For instance, I've never met a Portuguese person, but have heard many times (mostly from Spanish people) that Portuguese people are crazy (wild, party animals, etc.), well, I guess they might be in general, but I really won't know until I've met plenty of them or lived there. Each encounter also has to be taken with a grain of salt because of the variability between individuals, each weighting in a little bit until some vague averages establish themselves. Mathematically, this is called "Bayesian inference", and philosophically, it's called "reason".

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How about treating them as you'd like to be treated? You know, like a person. As Professor Henry Higgins said, "the same manners for everyone". Of course, tit for tat applies as well. I'm not a complete idiot.

I agree.

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@LM

How many girls from different countries are you planning to hook up with? Are you a sex tourist?

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How many girls from different countries are you planning to hook up with?

None.

Are you a sex tourist?

No. Maybe a tourists not sex tourist! Might want to travel to different countries and see and learn different cultures but I don't have time and money to do that.

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Maybe he considers himself a sexy tourist though.

I think so. He likes to talk about the laydeez. I think your mask has slipped young LM. :)

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Maybe he considers himself a sexy tourist though.

LOL, that was pretty funny.

I think so. He likes to talk about the laydeez. I think your mask has slipped young LM. :)

I'm not a player or stud! I'm just a quiet person and thanks for calling me young. I feel better now.

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I'm wondering how balanced the discussion is with not hearing any views from female members on the forum. LastMitch may be able to contain his Pepé Le Pew urges just long enough to allow them a few comments at least, eh? :-D

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I'm wondering how balanced the discussion is with not hearing any views from female members on the forum.

If you've read the earlier posts in this thread you'll see that agilemind has already weighed in.

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LastMitch may be able to contain his Pepé Le Pew urges

Hah - that made me laugh. Nail-head-hit.

'm wondering how balanced the discussion is with not hearing any views from female members on the forum.

With the exception of AM, possibly others that I don't are female, it has been male-dominated, most of us emanating testosterone to out-muscle the other in arguments. I can't possibly understand why females would not want to get involved in such a discussion. :)

Edited by diafol

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