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Today is a sad day for South Africa, Africa, and the world; with the passing of Mandela there is an emptiness in the world that will be hard to fill.

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very true
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Last Post by GrimJack
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  • Yeah, it's quite sad. Although, it was expected for some time. @Warrens80: Bringing down the apartheid is no mean feat. And be prepared for a flurry of down-votes. Read More

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    diafol 3,720   4 Years Ago

    I have to admit that I was quite choked when I heard. There can't be many more inspiring humans in history. His diginity, his capacity for forgiveness and his steely determination to bring all the disparate people of his nation together... He will be missed terribly, but I hope that … Read More

  • @jwenting One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter - Black and coloured people were terrorised in South Africa every day by the Police and the Army - they were second class citizens. A black man or woman was liable to being arrested and beaten by the Police. School children … Read More

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    diafol 3,720   4 Years Ago

    @jw We've all come to expect these types of comments from you by now. But even I'm shocked by this latest one. >apartheid in the RSA was a Bad Thing You'll never live that down - and your comment, although tempered in your inimitable way, will stay here for all … Read More

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    `We all are mandelasWe all are mandelas` Fortuneatly, very few of us are jwenting Read More

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Yeah, it's quite sad. Although, it was expected for some time.

@Warrens80: Bringing down the apartheid is no mean feat. And be prepared for a flurry of down-votes.

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I have to admit that I was quite choked when I heard. There can't be many more inspiring humans in history. His diginity, his capacity for forgiveness and his steely determination to bring all the disparate people of his nation together... He will be missed terribly, but I hope that his legacy will continue to guide and inspire those that follow him.

@Warrens80
Even my young teenage kids articulated a sense of loss at his passing. I don't know what you've been doing with yourself for the last 20 years since his release from prison, but I find your ignorance staggering.

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good riddance to another terrorist pushed into premature sainthood by a world press totally oblivious of reality.
While apartheid in the RSA was a Bad Thing (tm), the terror campaign of the ANC was no better and has led to what now is a regime that is no better except that now non-blacks are the victims.

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What about the Blacks and coloured in South africa who were terrorised EVERY day by the South African Police and Army?
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@jwenting
One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter - Black and coloured people were terrorised in South Africa every day by the Police and the Army - they were second class citizens. A black man or woman was liable to being arrested and beaten by the Police. School children were shot at with live ammunition for demanding the right to a fair and equal education.

@Warrens80 - You want to know why Mandela is considered a great man? He lived through years of oppression, spent twenty years in prison and then when he came out he became the first truly democratically elected president of his country and he forgave. He did not seek out revenge. He did not expel the white people or tell them they could only live in certain areas, deny them a fair and equal education, give then second class public services – he forgave and forgot and offered hope and peace. The nightmare of the white South African was that when and if the non-whites got power that they would take revenge, that there would be a civil war or mass killings ethnic cleansing etc. What happened was Mandela and he tried to unite the country as one.

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@jw

We've all come to expect these types of comments from you by now. But even I'm shocked by this latest one.

apartheid in the RSA was a Bad Thing

You'll never live that down - and your comment, although tempered in your inimitable way, will stay here for all to see.

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It was time for him to go (probably actually past it thanks to modern medical technology). He was a great man but no-one lives forever. I hope some one(s) have the courage to fill his very large shoes.

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Diafol: whether you agree with it or not, JWenting has as much right to an opinion as you or I. I assume he's referring to a lot of people who adore Mandela and treat him as if he never made a mistake in his life, or walked the 'path of peace' besides Ghandi, which is simply not true.

No matter how hard his people needed it, in their rebellion, they to took up arms and murdered people, not all of them actual enemies, but rather being looked upon as such, for the color of their skin and their financial position.

yes, he did a lot of good, no sense in denying that, but there's no reason to declare him a saint just yet. in the start of his rebellion against his supressors, quite some of his actions were just as misguided as theirs.

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You might need some reading comprehension - disagreeing with someone is not denying their opion
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Nobody is a saint. Most Saints were not saints. Even Ghandi had several darker sides to him (like his outspoken racism against African blacks).

Everyone is a mixed bag. Some good, some bad. If you have to tally it up, there is no doubt Mandela had a huge positive impact. Regardless of the more violent-rebelious nature of his early actions (pre-emprisonment), and the latest troubles with the ANC.

Elevating people to sainthood is not about some sort of mass-delusion to think that the guy is all good. It's about focusing on and being inspired by the good and the admirable parts of his legacy or life. Case in point, if you focus on "young Mandela", you might just see another "freedom front" leader, not the first, certainly not the last, and probably not much of an example to follow. But if you focus on the Mandela that ended Apartheid and de-fused much of the racial tensions through conciliation, mutual understanding, and forgiveness, then you can draw a lot of inspiration and it can certainly serve as an example to follow. The former is uninteresting, the latter is useful.

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@stult

I never said that jw should not express his opinion and he is entitled to it. All of it. Although we must take each comment on its merits, I chose not to rise to the bait and focused on his admission that apartheid was a bad thing. That surprised me, hence my remark. Furthermore I never suggested that Mandela was a saint, simply that his actions serve as an inspiration. How easy it would have been to create another Zimbabwe. We can discuss the atrocities in which he may have a hand before his incarceration - but if we do that, then we should also consider the environment that fosters such actions.

Edited by diafol

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Calm down. I know the whole sMandela story i have studied it have done multiple reports on him. I did find what he did fascinating at first but then i realized it was history repeating its self. The Jews have done what he has done. Heck we each have done what he has done in our own little way. It could just because of my experiences and the fact i had no childhood. Mandela was a hero there is no mistake about that, but what he did was something that has been done many times.

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You do not appear to know the whole story, or you need to up your comprehension
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The Jews have done what he has done.

Really? I'm sure the Palestinians would agree with you. I stand by my original statement.

Edited by diafol

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If I could live as long as Mandela and affect 1/10,000th of world as he, I would consider myself successful.

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GrimJack: as answer on your comment on my post. maybe it wasn't meant as a "you're not allowed to speak your opinion", but I can read very well.
the post was a bit more aggressive, and the content was a teensie bit more then "my dear sir, I do not agree with you", even when typed in some street slang.

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Stultusk: You have 4900 posts; I assume you have read some of jwenting's posts before. Jwnting is a right wing trolll; he can be counted on to appear whenever something comes up that appears to him to be left-ish attracting his very predictable trolling. Free speech means that we can speechify against trolls. Jwenting does not care, he seldom responds to responses to his trolling - if it is your task to defend trolls, good for you but do not expect sympathy.

Edited by GrimJack

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GrimJack: it's not my task to defend anyone.
but a lot of people seem to forget that there still are nations out there that consider (up until recently, or even up until now) Mandela to be a terrorist.
he did not get that reputation by baking cookies for peace, or by singing war protest songs.

it is possible to respect the man and his accomplishments, without ignoring the less positive actions he's taken to get there. that is what I'm saying.

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well said. It's the mindless reification that sickens me, not the fact that people think he did some good things.
He wasn't perfect, he was neither divine nor demonic. As every human being he was a bit of both.
Stalin did good and bad, Hitler did good and bad, Mandela did good and bad. No doubt if you look closely at Sister Theresa she did some naughty things as well.

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It is the second death in the last couple of weeks that really make the whole world sad, first the death of Paul Walker and now Nelson Mandela.

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As every human being he was a bit of both. Stalin did good and bad, Hitler did good and bad, Mandela did good and bad.

Just because <insert hero here> did a few bad things along with the good does not make them equivalent to <insert mass murderer here>. Perfection may be impossible, but that is no reason to not admire and be inspired by those who manage to do much good in their life and condemn those who do more bad than good.

Secondly, sometimes the ends do justify the means and sometimes there is no right answer just a bad and worse option. Sometimes we must go to war to end a genocide, sometimes we must kill to obtain/defend our freedom. Determining when this is the case is hard and I do not envy those who must make those decisions.

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Seconded
Well said
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Wow. That's the first time I've seen Mandela compared to Hitler and Stalin. I'd really like to smile about that, but I really can't bring myself to do it. That really does put the 'Apartheid is a Bad Thing' comment well and truly in its place. I'm not offended by it, I just find it unfathomable.

From what I can see the only people mentioning the word "saint" are the people who say he's not. I don't see the point that they're trying to make. There's no case to argue. Nobody claimed he was a saint.

Aw whatever

Another erudite and thought-provoking comment. Well done.

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With all these insane comparisons I hear from the right-wing of Hitler with atheists, Mandela or Obama, people will start to believe that Hitler was a black atheist communist!

(as opposed to reality: Hitler was a devout Christian, white-supremacist / nationalist, fascist / Nietzscheist, and vehemently and viciously anti-communist)

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Not one to argue with my betters, but I thought Hitler was an atheist (or a rough equivalent of) and wanted to rid Germany of Christianity. However, that doesn't detract from your point. Well made, as ever.

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Mandela was nothing but a radical that did things that deserve to be put in jail. Lets see, he planned sabotage and even admitted to that and admitted to plan a armed struggle. Last time i checked that is high treason. Im not saying i agreed With the government of the time but there are ways that don't involve violence to overthrow a government. He would not have gone to jail if only he stuck with the peaceful rebellion.

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George Washington commited treason to the Crown; the US was born in blood and violence
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