Sad, sad news - Nelson Mandela passed away today - Page 2

How very astute. Having handed in a number of assignments along these lines, I bet you scored top of the class. I'm impressed.

[mike_2000_17]

I thought Hitler was an atheist (or a rough equivalent of) and wanted to rid Germany of Christianity.

Hitler was a devoit catholic (through his speeches and writings), and accomplished a bit of a tour-de-force in Germany by uniting the protestants (most of Germany) and catholics (Austria and Bavaria) under the military's motto "Gott mit uns" (God with us). This parallels the way some Americans recently started to call the US a "christian nation" (which flies in the face of long-standing divisions between different denominations, when a southern baptist, for example, would never even consider calling a catholic a "Christian"), and the revival of "one nation under God" (which was almost certainly never said by Lincoln).

Also, the Pope supported the Nazis up to the point where the attrocities of the Holocaust were too unbearably embarassing.

You might be confusing Hitler with the Soviets. The bolsheviks were very much against the church (the Orthodox Church) and sought to eliminate it or severely cripple it after the revolution and throughout the reign of Lenin and then Stalin. This was mostly motivated by fact that the orthodox church had a very long history of working hand-in-hand with the Tzars' regimes to oppress the people. Basically, the general sentiment was that the revolution against the tyranny of the Tzars would not be over until the orthodox church was defeated too. Oh, and now, the orthodox church in Russia works hand-in-hand with the oppressive government of Putin, so, I guess the bolsheviks were right!

[mike_2000_17]

Last time i checked that is high treason.

Accusing a black person of high treason during the Apartheid is the very definition of irony.

I remember seeing a programme a looong time ago about it, so I thought I'd check it. Don't know how reliable this is, but this seems to suggest that he was a deist 'at best': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

OK, I'm aware that this is going off-topic, and the mere mention of N/A.H. tends to be the death knell for a thread. So I'll shut up.

[mike_2000_17]

Well, I must admit that I did not research this very thoroughly. But I also find parts of that wiki page very dubious. A lot of it sounds very similar to the arguments that "well, he wasn't really a Christian in his heart", and citing only weak evidence that he was for secularity (which does not mean against religion). Whether it was true belief or not is not very relevant, he sided with and used religion as a means to unite people. For a fascist, anything that will make people blindly follow you, whether it is nationalism or religion, or more often both, is useful, as Lucius Annaeus Seneca said:
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

[kal_crazy]

Aw whatever

Nice comeback. NOT!

I obviously didn't try.

[GrimJack]

So I have been looking for the examples of Mandela's terrorism and ran into this guy - I am still looking but I ran across this quote `Calling Mandela a Communist or a terrorist shortly after his death is mean-spirited, but it is a bigger condemnation of the moral blindness of much of U.S. foreign policy during the Cold War than it is a criticism of Mandela.
There are American heroes who fought against a despodic ruler. I know that the US and the UK branded him as a terrorist and kept him there until 2008, you gotta look at the friends the US and the UK kept while call Mandela a terrorist (do I need to bring up Reagan, Iran, and the Contras?). This is not a comparison who is most or least evil. The story is about a white minority that deprived all non-whites of normal human priveleges like participation in government, education, the freedom to move about their own country. The conditions that the Africans faced were much worse that those faced by American colonists.

I actually even went to warren88's links that only say that he was imprisoned for treason - it was considered treason to want his people to have a good education, et cetera. sigh!

His work on equality for women should not be forgotten either:

e.g. http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/08/world/africa/the-ultimate-male-feminist-mandela/

(I don't like cnn links, but it was the most convenient I could find)

[Gribouillis]

I think Mandela is sanctified today because everybody, and particularly world leaders, want to promote peaceful coexistence of the different human races. As he spent 28 years in prison, I see him as a victim rather than a saint. He is a dissident in the sense used for dissidents of the communist world, like Solzhenitsyn.

[Fenrir()]

Interesting seeing all of your comments. I am actually from south africa and everyone here basically forgot about mandela until he became sick and subsequently passed away I was born in the final stages of apartheid so it really didn't affect me but i can promise you that the country is heading away from mandela's vision. To me that is sad.

[dmn97]

It's really sad news.

[Agilemind]

Im not saying i agreed With the government of the time but there are ways that don't involve violence to overthrow a government. He would not have gone to jail if only he stuck with the peaceful rebellion.

Almost every single oppressive government which has been overthrown has been overthrown using violence. Here are just a few examples:

1) American revolution against the British
2) American overthrow of Saddam Hussain
3) Revolutions in Tunisia & Lybia (Arab Spring)
4) Russian Revolution, French Revolutions
5) (French & other) Resistance during WW2

etc...

The only times (I know of) where governements have been overthrown without violence is if:
A) the military & police support the peaceful protests (eg. Egypt)
B) the government doesn't really want to stay in power (eg. indepence of some states from colonial rule - for instance Canada)

[Reverend Jim]

Yes. We are a polite people. Rather than breaking out the guns we just said "we'd like to leave now, please."

[mike_2000_17]

Yes. We are a polite people. Rather than breaking out the guns we just said "we'd like to leave now, please."

A selective politeness, may I add. History is written by the victors. Your province's founder wouldn't exactly choose the word "polite" to describe Canadians. Nor would the Patriotes. Nor the Acadiens. Nor the disenfranchised first nations' people. Nor the conscripts of ww1 and ww2. I doubt René Lévesque would describe Pierre-Eliotte Trudeau as "polite".

But who am I do speak, I'm just a descendent of the nègres blancs d'Amérique. And, hey, it's not like you could write an entire book about Canada's dark and forgotten baggage... oh wait, there were three (at least) (unless you want to comfort yourself with the nauseating writings of the Mordecai Richler).

I agree that we, canadians, are a polite people, but it is a rather recent state of affairs. And things can quickly slip. They already are slipping.

Hear all the flak Obama, Cameron and the Danish PM were getting over the 'selfie'? Lack of respect or in the mood? If you like to kick people, it's disgusting and thoroughly disrespectful. Would Mandela have wanted everybody to have a good time? I think so. Naïve maybe, but surely not criminal.

[madejka22]

What can I say. It's a tragic, tragic news.

[Agilemind]

Hear all the flak Obama, Cameron and the Danish PM were getting over the 'selfie'?

Lazy journalism at its finest. Why discuss the political ideals Mandela stood for or the continued marginalization of Black Africans in South Africa and the USA (and many other places) when you can be "outraged" by some politicians behaving like regular folk?

[jwenting]

The Peoples' Cube put it best: Obama, putting the Fun back in Funeral.

If you can't take the heat about using a funeral for self agrandisement, you're not worthy of holding political office, and Obama can't.

[Agilemind]

and Obama can't.

Really? I haven't seen any articles about him having a nervous breakdown because some journalists made fun of him.

[GrimJack]

AgileMind = jwenting often makes statements that refer his particular sources so may not be seen in mainstream media. I, personally, think he might hang out on places similar to prisonplanet, AceofSpades, and FreeRepublic.

[jwenting]

I haven't seen any articles about him having a nervous breakdown because some journalists made fun of him.

banning people who're critical of him from the white house press room takes care of that.

[<M/>]

banning people who're critical of him from the white house press room takes care of that.

or people just don't bother with writing articles like that...

[Agilemind]

or people just don't bother with writing articles like that.

Please tell me that was meant in jest? The tabloids seem to love nothing more than spewing every detail of every celebrity's personal issues.

[GrimJack]

banning people who're critical of him from the white house press room takes care of that.

You know that is just plain BS