Collins: Why this scientist believes in God - Page 15

[christina>you]

Christina do you believe in evolution?

Like 'Stein said, you might want to look at the first few pages of this thread. It has most of my opinions concerning evolution and such...

[Sturm]

Sorry..such a long thread I have forgotten some of the previous conversation.

[Sturm]

first off, I am a Fundamentalist Christian... which means I believe in the Bible as being literally true. It also means that I believe the universe is in existence because of a Divine Creator.

So you believe dinasaurs did not exist? And that
museums are just faking it? Surely you jest...

[christina>you]

So you believe dinasaurs did not exist? And that
museums are just faking it? Surely you jest...

Actually, yes I do believe dinosaurs existed. It may not say directly "In the beginning, God created dinosaurs" in the Bible, but it does hint about large creatures known today as certain types of dinosaurs. I can show you scriptures if you'd like...

[joshSCH]

Christianity answers the question of who created God in the very first verse of the very first book, Genesis: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1)
This verse tells us that God was acting before time when He created the universe. Many other verses from the New Testament tells us that God was acting before time began, and so, He created time, along with the other dimensions of our universe:

• No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7)
• This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time. (2 Timothy 1:9)
• The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time. (Titus 1:2)
• To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)

God has no need to have been created, since He exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of a plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist only ~13.7 billion years ago. The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific).

Ah, I was wondering when someone would make the argument of a god operating in multiple dimensions.. I suppose parts of your arguments are just.. b/c it could be argued that something existed before time and could exist in multiple dimensions at once.. Since humans have no knowledge of what this would be like or how something could create time.. However, I still can't comprehend how God could have always existed. I mean, how could something with so much power just come about spontaneously. And most importantly, why?? There is no reason to create the human race...

What do you mean by: "The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific)."

Sturm, I'd advise looking at the first 5-10 pages of this thread.

*walks back out*

haha 'Stein.. what's up man? Why not debate anymore?

[jbennet]

beacuse he dosnt want to open a can of worms

[christina>you]

What do you mean by: "The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific)."

Eh, I wasn't directing that towards all atheists. I just know a lot of atheists that are like that.

[Sturm]

So do you believe that dinosaurs lived during the time of humans and now they are extinct? How could species go extinct if god created them? Why would god create humans if he knew that they would just kill all the other species due there phenomenal intelligence?

I have another question:
"God" created us in his image right? So why do we have tail bones? Why do we have light sensors at the back of our eyes? Why do we get backpain (we are still used to walking on four legs)? Why do we get goosebumps? If god created us in his image, he must be pretty flawed.(I wonder if god has artheritis?)

[jbennet]

Why would god create humans if he knew that they would just kill all the other species due there phenomenal intelligence?

Maybe god is like a kid with a magnifying glass on a sunny day and were all ants... :)

[joshSCH]

Eh, I wasn't directing that towards all atheists. I just know a lot of atheists that are like that.

hah don't worry about offending any1.. I was just wondering what exactly you meant by that

So do you believe that dinosaurs lived during the time of humans and now they are extinct? How could species go extinct if god created them? Why would god create humans if he knew that they would just kill all the other species due there phenomenal intelligence?

I have another question:
"God" created us in his image right? So why do we have tail bones? Why do we have light sensors at the back of our eyes? Why do we get backpain (we are still used to walking on four legs)? Why do we get goosebumps? If god created us in his image, he must be pretty flawed.(I wonder if god has artheritis?)

Yes, there are many flaws throughout the human body. Jumping and running problems (b/c of only 2 legs), foot and ankle bones are badly designed. The Larynx too highly placed, leading to common choking deaths. The appendix is no longer used, but can cause death. In the embryonic stage of life, humans develop gills.. which may be left over as a birth defect. Now, I'm no scientist, but I've heard there is some problem with our neck arteries that can easily cause brain damage. (Like if the left side gets clogged, the right artery into the neck cannot pump blood into the brain for some reason), ... There are many problems with the human body, I have only listed a few that I know of.

Maybe god is like a kid with a magnifying glass on a sunny day and were all ants... :)

haha, but If that's the case... why create the ants? Just so they will run and cower in fear when you spray them with water or try to burn them with the magnifying glass? lol

[christina>you]

So do you believe that dinosaurs lived during the time of humans and now they are extinct? How could species go extinct if god created them? Why would god create humans if he knew that they would just kill all the other species due there phenomenal intelligence?

Well of course they were alive during the time of humans, I believe God created them for some kind of purpose. But it isn't mentioned in detail in the Bible, since Genesis is based around mankind and God. Obviously, there were a lot more creatures than just dinosaurs that were left out of the creation account. If God were to have included every creature in the creation account (well over one billion), such inclusion would have completely lost the spiritual significance of the passage (and would be much longer than the Bible itself). The purpose of the Genesis creation account is to give a description of how God created mankind. But like I also said, dinosaurs are mentioned and described in the Bible, it's just a little vague since there wasn't a word for 'dinosaurs' in the Hebrew language.

I have another question:
"God" created us in his image right? So why do we have tail bones? Why do we have light sensors at the back of our eyes? Why do we get backpain (we are still used to walking on four legs)? Why do we get goosebumps? If god created us in his image, he must be pretty flawed.(I wonder if god has artheritis?)

I see where you are coming from. You are thinking about the physical features of our humanly bodies, right? Well, yes, the Bible says that both males and females are created in the image of God. Unless God was a hermaphrodite (having both male and female sexual organs), this phrase could not refer to just physical characteristics. In addition, there are various verses in the Bible that describe God as having non-human physical characteristics, such as feathers and wings. Should we think of God as being an overgrown chicken? Certainly not! God is so unlike humans physically, that the Bible often paints word pictures to give us a glimpse of what God is like. It seems likely that "in the image of God" refers to the characteristics of the human spirit and the ability to make moral judgments - things that are not found in any animal species, even those to whom we are said to be closely related. Even evolutionists are beginning to recognize the uniqueness of human beings.

[jbennet]

An atheist friend asked me this yesterday and i suppose it applies to nearly all religions. The question is why do people believe books like the torah, koran or bible? as most of the time they (or at least the important bits) were written hundreds of years after the main events took place?

[christina>you]

An atheist friend asked me this yesterday and i suppose it applies to nearly all religions. The question is why do people believe books like the torah, koran or bible? as most of the time they (or at least the important bits) were written hundreds of years after the main events took place?

Yeah, I think we discussed this a couple of pages ago... lol ;)
But, I really don't know much about the koran.

[joshSCH]

Yeah, I think we discussed this a couple of pages ago... lol ;)
But, I really don't know much about the koran.

haha.. yea we have.. wow, almost 30 pages! I wonder if many people have read it all lol

[jbennet]

30? Its 11 for me. Im at 1280x1024 using firefox?

[christina>you]

Lol.. I know, this discussion has gone a long way!

[Sturm]

30? Its 11 for me. Im at 1280x1024 using firefox?

30 for me . (1280x800 with iceweasel:))

Well of course they were alive during the time of humans, I believe God created them for some kind of purpose.

That seems like a shallow excuse for "I don't know." So carbon dating is a lie? Who are YOU to say that millions of scientists are wrong? It Is a SCIENTIFIC FACT that the earth is 4.5 billion years old and that evolution happens. It is as much of a fact as the fact that I have five fingers on each hand (granted I might be lying...:)).

[jbennet]

It does have to be said that carbon dating is notoriously unreliable although i doubt its as unreliable as certain anti-evolutionists would have you believe

[christina>you]

That seems like a shallow excuse for "I don't know." So carbon dating is a lie? Who are YOU to say that millions of scientists are wrong? It Is a SCIENTIFIC FACT that the earth is 4.5 billion years old and that evolution happens. It is as much of a fact as the fact that I have five fingers on each hand (granted I might be lying...:)).

What are you even trying to say here? I didn't say carbon dating is a lie... I didn't say that millions of scientists are wrong. You are getting my words mixed up with your own thoughts. When did I ever say the earth wasn't billions of years old? I don't know where you are getting your information from... :?:

Your post had nothing to do with what I said.

[jbennet]

What are you even trying to say here? I didn't say carbon dating is a lie... I didn't say that millions of scientists are wrong. You are getting my words mixed up with your own thoughts. When did I ever say the earth wasn't billions of years old? I don't know where you are getting your information from... :?:

Your post had nothing to do with what I said.

I suppose thats what happens with long threads. Maybe we should lock it before it becomes flamey?

[christina>you]

I suppose thats what happens with long threads. Maybe we should lock it before it becomes flamey?

Eh, you should have seen it earlier. It was ten times worse than this. I don't think it will get too bad.

[joshSCH]

It does have to be said that carbon dating is notoriously unreliable although i doubt its as unreliable as certain anti-evolutionists would have you believe

huh? How is carbon dating unreliable?

Eh, you should have seen it earlier. It was ten times worse than this. I don't think it will get too bad.

haha.. yea It has been really bad be4

I think we have covered almost everything in the debate of Christianity v. atheism... and I don't think it has had much of an affect on any1. But at least both sides know a little bit more about where the other side is coming from.

[christina>you]

I think we have covered almost everything in the debate of Christianity v. atheism... and I don't think it has had much of an affect on any1. But at least both sides know a little bit more about where the other side is coming from.

Yeah, I agree lol.

[jbennet]

How come TheNSS's Mormon thread never cause such a big religious frency as this one did?

[joshSCH]

idk.. I'm going to have to go back and see how this debate got started in the first place lol

[christina>you]

Lol.. I think it all started with the debate about theory and fact.

[jbennet]

i believe it started with a link. I never even bothered to watch it as the thread was so off topic.

[jbennet]

(btw the matty, congrats on entering the "DaniWeb hall of fame", how does it feel to have a nice badge beside your name? :D)

How do you get one of them anyway?

[joshSCH]

Lol.. I think it all started with the debate about theory and fact.

haha thats right..

[John A]

>How do you get one of them anyway?

The administration randomly (or maybe not) chooses someone that they're going to interview and feature in the monthly newsletter. Being chosen means you get a "featured" badge.

>How come TheNSS's Mormon thread never cause such a big religious frency as this one did?

I would say that's probably because Mormon is not nearly as popular as some other religons, and it's pretty safe to say that too many people here are ignorant of it (myself included) to debate on it. Or maybe we're just too tired to start another debate.