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But maybe thats because many people call themselves christian but in reality they have never reaslly been to church nor read the bible, been christened or done any other christian type things.

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As for science.. The purpose of science is to explain phenomena that occur. Science is not a bunch of cock-and-bull theories that people simply 'believe'. Every single scientific law has actually gone through rigorous tests.. And unlike religion, science has actually been proven true time and time again. Even scientific theories have gone through many tests.


I don't think you really know what you're talking about.. Science has been backed up and proven; Religion has not.

Every time science is disproven, we recreate the theories to fit the data to it. Things don't always work the way we think they do, and hence science is disproven time and time again. The difference is that science readily adapts to being disproven by changing what it considers to be the truth; that's part of it's nature. Religions, if one of their tenets is disproven, will also adapt in a similar manner, but the science-toters call foul when religions do it.

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Science has only been disproven by science.. and when this happens, we discover something else that can better explain why we were previously wrong. So, science grows and evolves similarly to religion, but unlike religion, science grows and continually explains how the universe works in a very logical way. Religion is changed by science, and usually the people twist their religion just slightly in order for it to fit science.

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How has Christianity, for example, been twisted in order to fit science? I'm curious.

The Roman Catholic Church's 'evolution' to the belief of Darwin's Natural Selection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Roman_Catholic_Church

When The Origin of Species was published, Pope Pius IX denounced it (1869).

In 1950, Pope Pius XII led the Chrurch into a neutral position regarding Evolution.

In 1996, Pope John Paul II led the Church into accepting Evolution.

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I agree, what 'fallible' sources do you speak of? I am atheist b/c I have seen all the evidence for both sides, and I have concluded that atheism is the truth. However, I am open to any ideas..

Fallible: people; often scientists. Remember bloodletting? Evidence... Infarction has responded to this quite well.

As for science.. The purpose of science is to explain phenomena that occur. Science is not a bunch of cock-and-bull theories that people simply 'believe'.

'Science' has that too.

Religion is changed by science, and usually the people twist their religion just slightly in order for it to fit science.

Religion has been perpetuated by people, who are of course fallible. Doctrines and misconceptions are much like scientific laws. They exist until refuted and are then modified. The cores of neither have changed.

I see them as two sides of the same coin: both seek an understanding of the universe in the things that cannot be explained. Science calls its faith a "theory"; religion calls its faith its faith. The two are not mutually exclusive; they are very much one in the same. At some point human knowledge breaks down to what is unexplained. And faith fills the void.

Religion has learned to accept science, and science can accept religion.

Atheism to me is the active practice of a faith that refuses to do either, be it consciously or unconsciously: that is, to deny the fact that things cannot be explained. Or perhaps, to maintain an approach of "if I can't understand it, then it can't be true" -- which is among practicing atheists the very thing that they seem despise to about religion.

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I see them as two sides of the same coin: both seek an understanding of the universe in the things that cannot be explained. Science calls its faith a "theory"; religion calls its faith its faith. The two are not mutually exclusive; they are very much one in the same. At some point human knowledge breaks down to what is unexplained. And faith fills the void.

Hmm.. except for the fact that science can actually explain why things happen.. For example, the Christians may say: "God created the sky! It is blue because that is the color that God chose." Hmm.. well, ok. That is not proof of anything, it is blind faith! On the other hand, science can actually explain what really happened. Science can prove through its infallible laws, well-studied theories, and years of experience/knowledge that the sky is part of our atmosphere that formed along with the planet. The sky is blue because of radiation reflected off the sun... (keep in mind that I am no scientist, so obviously a scientist could better explain these phenomena.) And the most important difference between science and religion is the fact that science can re-create and test its theories in a lab. Scientists can create a kind of model of our planet, and they can create the 'sky' themselves. Scientists can use God's 'power'. We can clone, and create life ourselves if we wanted to.

Atheism to me is the active practice of a faith that refuses to do either, be it consciously or unconsciously: that is, to deny the fact that things cannot be explained. Or perhaps, to maintain an approach of "if I can't understand it, then it can't be true" -- which is among practicing atheists the very thing that they seem despise to about religion.

Atheism is not a faith.. And in fact what you just explained is the Christian attitude. "Well, if I can't understand it then there must be a God!" What kind of idiotic logic is this? Atheists actually look at the big picture, and understand that no supreme being could truly exist. Science wouldn't allow it.. Nothing could live forever, nothing could defy the laws of the universe, nothing can be omnipotent and still allow free will to exist, nothing could just magically create stuff.. And the list goes on..

Most of the scientists and intellectuals of today are atheist. This is a fact, you can look it up if you wish:
http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelligence%20&%20religion.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

"the higher one's intelligence or education level, the less one is likely to be religious or hold 'beliefs' of any kind."

"A survey published in Nature in 1998 confirms that belief in a personal God or afterlife is at an all time low among the members of the National Academy of Science, only 7.0% of which believed in a personal God as compared to more than 85% of the US general population."

Most people with high levels of education, like graduate level degrees do not believe in God. These are the people making the most money in the United States, and they are the most successful too. Also, the same is true for the ivy league and top colleges in the nation. I recently looked on facebook at the stats for some colleges and found that the majority 70%+ of freshman at Rice do NOT believe in God. Also, the same is true for MIT. I don't know a percentage for MIT, but I know it was over half of the students. So, if there is a God.. then why do the most intelligent people and the most successful of this world not believe in him?

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Hmm.. except for the fact that science can actually explain why things happen.. For example, the Christians may say: "God created the sky! It is blue because that is the color that God chose." Hmm.. well, ok. That is not proof of anything, it is blind faith! On the other hand, science can actually explain what really happened. Science can prove through its infallible laws, well-studied theories, and years of experience/knowledge that the sky is part of our atmosphere that formed along with the planet. The sky is blue because of radiation reflected off the sun... (keep in mind that I am no scientist, so obviously a scientist could better explain these phenomena.) And the most important difference between science and religion is the fact that science can re-create and test its theories in a lab. Scientists can create a kind of model of our planet, and they can create the 'sky' themselves. Scientists can use God's 'power'. We can clone, and create life ourselves if we wanted to.

WTF? That's one of the biggest piles of crap you've piled on this discussion (or so I hope... I missed 30 pages of it). Christians don't say that the sky is blue because God chose the color; likely most of them would give the same answer you'd get from a random population sample of non-Christians. And while religion can't recreate miracles on a whim, that's implied by definition. Science, however, doesn't allow for something that can't be recreated; miracles, then, would be inexplicable by science (or they'd shrug it off as "good luck"). And we've not yet figured out how to create life from non-living materials. We've only learned how to modify already living things.

Atheism is not a faith.. And in fact what you just explained is the Christian attitude. "Well, if I can't understand it then there must be a God!" What kind of idiotic logic is this? Atheists actually look at the big picture, and understand that no supreme being could truly exist. Science wouldn't allow it.. Nothing could live forever, nothing could defy the laws of the universe, nothing can be omnipotent and still allow free will to exist, nothing could just magically create stuff..

You're just using the same idiotic logic. Since you can't explain it, it can't be so. Even though you're not a scientist, so you wouldn't know for sure anyways.

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WTF? That's one of the biggest piles of crap you've piled on this discussion (or so I hope... I missed 30 pages of it). Christians don't say that the sky is blue because God chose the color; likely most of them would give the same answer you'd get from a random population sample of non-Christians. And while religion can't recreate miracles on a whim, that's implied by definition. Science, however, doesn't allow for something that can't be recreated; miracles, then, would be inexplicable by science (or they'd shrug it off as "good luck"). And we've not yet figured out how to create life from non-living materials. We've only learned how to modify already living things.

You fool, I was using the sky is a metaphorical example. I don't really think Christians don't know why the sky is blue.

You're just using the same idiotic logic. Since you can't explain it, it can't be so. Even though you're not a scientist, so you wouldn't know for sure anyways.

Idiotic logic my ass.. lol.. your the one who doesn't seem to understand. The laws of physics cannot be disobeyed. They are scientific laws! Nothing can defy gravity, not you, not me, and certainly not your 'god'. What about the Christian idea of an omnipotent god, but a world of free will. How the hell does that work? What about the fact that nothing in the Universe is truly infinite? Infinity doesn't exist and therefore nothing can live forever.


I also see that you did not respond to my post about the most intellectual people being atheist or agnostic. I assume you have agreed.

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Calm down.
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Idiotic logic my ass.. lol.. your the one who doesn't seem to understand. The laws of physics cannot be disobeyed. They are scientific laws! Nothing can defy gravity, not you, not me, and certainly not your 'god'. What about the Christian idea of an omnipotent god, but a world of free will. How the hell does that work? What about the fact that nothing in the Universe is truly infinite? Infinity doesn't exist and therefore nothing can live forever.

The Christian God doesn't defy the laws of physics; the concept of omnipotence doesn't fit into your view because you don't accept anything that isn't defined by your incomplete knowledge model. Furthermore, scientific laws, if broken, are also changed to reflect new data. We can't break them, but who's to say something else is also unable to? And since you've brought up gravity, lets discuss that. Why do we have gravity? What causes it? As far as I know, there is no scientific explanation. Or here's a question I've wondered about: if matter has mass, and matter is made up of massless particles (quarks), where does the mass come from?

I also see that you did not respond to my post about the most intellectual people being atheist or agnostic. I assume you have agreed.

No, I thought it was dumb enough that it didn't warrant a response.

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The Christian God doesn't defy the laws of physics; the concept of omnipotence doesn't fit into your view because you don't accept anything that isn't defined by your incomplete knowledge model. Furthermore, scientific laws, if broken, are also changed to reflect new data. We can't break them, but who's to say something else is also unable to? And since you've brought up gravity, lets discuss that. Why do we have gravity? What causes it? As far as I know, there is no scientific explanation. Or here's a question I've wondered about: if matter has mass, and matter is made up of massless particles (quarks), where does the mass come from?

The concept of omnipotence makes no sense whatsoever. If god knows everything, than how exactly does free will exist? They are completely different ideas. If god knows everything, than your decisions are already made.. your fate is decided, and there is nothing you can do about it.

Scientific laws cannot be broken! Not by anything or anyone. You seem to be confusing pro-scriptive and descriptive laws. Why do we have gravity? lol.. the question isn't why, its how. The answer to every "WHY" is simple.. why are we here? why were we 'created', etc. Answer: No reason. Nothing.

There are actually two particles that make up matter.. And quarks do have mass.. very very small masses, but they still have mass. The only objects that don't have mass are photons, or light particles. So perhaps before you start talking out your ass, you should do a little research.

No, I thought it was dumb enough that it didn't warrant a response.

haha! What is your answer then? Why do the majority of the intellects of the entire world refuse to believe in god? Go ahead and use your bs christian logic...

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Oh, joshSCH, The shallow-mindedness abounds!

Hmm.. except for the fact that science can actually explain why things happen..

To a point...

For example, the Christians may say: "God created the sky! It is blue because that is the color that God chose." Hmm.. well, ok.

Scientists defined "blue"?

That is not proof of anything, it is blind faith!

You're damn right. And you just showed you ascribe to it.

On the other hand, science can actually explain what really happened. Science can prove through its infallible laws, well-studied theories, and years of experience/knowledge that the sky is part of our atmosphere that formed along with the planet. The sky is blue because of radiation reflected off the sun... (keep in mind that I am no scientist, so obviously a scientist could better explain these phenomena.)

And it still cannot explain "blue". Or perhaps, "it is because it is"? (Not to be confused with "I am that I am".)

And the most important difference between science and religion is the fact that science can re-create and test its theories in a lab. Scientists can create a kind of model of our planet, and they can create the 'sky' themselves. Scientists can use God's 'power'. We can clone, and create life ourselves if we wanted to.

Your point?

"Dave made a racetrack. I can calculate the speed of a car on it. God does not exist!"

A non sequitor at best.

Atheism is not a faith..

It requires pretty much the same suspension of disbelief.

And in fact what you just explained is the Christian attitude. "Well, if I can't understand it then there must be a God!" What kind of idiotic logic is this?

Atheists: let me know.

Atheists actually look at the big picture, and understand that no supreme being could truly exist. Science wouldn't allow it..

Atheists seem to look at the big picture, and if they don't understand it conclude that...

Nothing could live forever [because I can't], nothing could defy the laws of the universe [because I can't], nothing can be omnipotent [because I can't] and still allow free will to exist [because I can't], nothing could just magically create stuff [because I can't].. And the list goes on.. [because I can't]

So if I'm not God, there cannot be one?

Say, if you could create the universe and the laws to govern it, could you defy it? Hmm. Sounds like 20 minutes of a Star Trek episode that you can't understand before you change the channel because it's gone over your head.

Most of the scientists and intellectuals of today are atheist. This is a fact, you can look it up if you wish:p.

Most of the greatest minds the world has known have been religious. And scientists.

Most people with high levels of education, like graduate level degrees do not believe in God.

The same folks that still believe Soviet Russia was a great model?

I recently looked on facebook at the stats for some colleges and found that the majority 70%+ of freshman at Rice do NOT believe in God. Also, the same is true for MIT. I don't know a percentage for MIT, but I know it was over half of the students. So, if there is a God.. then why do the most intelligent people and the most successful of this world not believe in him?

Not surprising since they are indoctrinated relentlessly with the glories of godlessness and communism.

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good post.
You are very closed-minded and foolish
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Scientists defined "blue"?

And it still cannot explain "blue". Or perhaps, "it is because it is"? (Not to be confused with "I am that I am".)

huh? I never said anything about the color 'blue'. I was referring to the sky:-/

Your point?

"Dave made a racetrack. I can calculate the speed of a car on it. God does not exist!"

lol.. what? I was saying that we can pretty much copy 'god's power'. We can create life, and we can take it away..

Atheists seem to look at the big picture, and if they don't understand it conclude that...

?? It's the christians who do that! If they cannot explain it, then it must be b/c of a god.. fool.

"Nothing could live forever [because I can't], nothing could defy the laws of the universe [because I can't], nothing can be omnipotent [because I can't] and still allow free will to exist [because I can't], nothing could just magically create stuff [because I can't].. And the list goes on.. [because I can't]"
So if I'm not God, there cannot be one?

Not b/c I can't, but because there is nothing in the universe that can. You are soo closed-minded that its not even funny..

Most of the greatest minds the world has known have been religious.

The same folks that still believe Soviet Russia was a great model?

Not surprising since they are indoctrinated relentlessly with the glories of godlessness and communism.

lol.. there goes that christian mindset again.. You are pretty much insulting all the rich and successful. The most powerful and intellectual people of this world do NOT believe in god. why? Are all these brilliant people wrong? No.. Perhaps you should at least open your mind to the possibilities.. but what am I saying? Your Christian..

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Not getting it is no reason to attempt to persecute others who do.

huh? I never said anything about the color 'blue'. I was referring to the sky:-/
lol.. what? I was saying that we can pretty much copy 'god's power'. We can create life, and we can take it away..

But you don't see the big picture. I can type, so therefore I am God! You just don't get it.

That's okay.

?? It's the christians who do that! If they cannot explain it, then it must be b/c of a god.. fool.

If I cannot explain it and science cannot, the there must be no God because science cannot? Fool.

Circular logic is definitive because it is.

Not b/c I can't, but because there is nothing in the universe that can.

Apparently you didn't understand what I wrote.

You are soo closed-minded that its not even funny..

Pot. Kettle. Black.

lol.. there goes that christian mindset again.. You are pretty much insulting all the rich and successful.

In no way, shape or form. How did you arrive at that? Your own successful indoctrination?

The most powerful and intellectual people of this world do NOT believe in god.

Oh, those idiots Copernicus, Newton, and Einstein. And some of the word's most notorious despots proscribe(d) atheism.

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lmao.. I'm not even going to waste the effort. I guess.. once a dumbass, always a dumbass..

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I think you need to try a little harder.
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Actually, I don't want to waste my time on you. You are obviously a closed-mined fool. You don't see anything, you are only defensive.. your posts are idiotic..

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As before, I'm only replying to parts that are worth replying to.

lol.. what? I was saying that we can pretty much copy 'god's power'. We can create life, and we can take it away..

We can create life... through natural processes. We have not yet cultivated a brand new life-form out of previously non-living material.

lol.. there goes that christian mindset again.. You are pretty much insulting all the rich and successful. The most powerful and intellectual people of this world do NOT believe in god. why? Are all these brilliant people wrong? No.. Perhaps you should at least open your mind to the possibilities.. but what am I saying? Your Christian..

You are not making sense (in reference to the last bit), and need to realize that wealth and religion are not mutually exclusive.

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Actually, I don't want to waste my time on you. You are obviously a closed-mined fool. You don't see anything, you are only defensive.. your posts are idiotic..

Ah, already moved on to phase 2 denial?

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lol.. whatever helps you sleep at night..

You seem to be the one having the difficulty at the moment.

Go bed. Talk to your indoctrinators tomorrow. They make you feel better.

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You seem to be the one having the difficulty at the moment.

Go bed. Talk to your indoctrinators tomorrow. They make you feel better.

haha okay. Perhaps you should try reading more.. Go get an education somewhere.. Maybe they can help your foolishness..

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Once, twice, three times, "I don't have an answer. Therefore you lose."

C'mon Mr. Scientist, show me your undisputed evidence.


Oh, and try to take your own advice instead of relying in blind faith on your beliefs.

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Once, twice, three times, "I don't have an answer. Therefore you lose."

C'mon Mr. Scientist, show me your undisputed evidence.


Oh, and try to take your own advice instead of relying in blind faith on your beliefs.

haha.. you just don't understand. Go back and read through this thread if you want more evidence. It's all around you.. but you just can't handle the truth. You've been a christian forever, and you can't imagine a world without your precious god. It is YOU who is in denial. YOU who does not understand. There is no god. There is nothing, but you want a god to exist. Your life depends on it. And until you can open your mind and stop being so defensive.. I wont tell you all the facts and evidence that your brain just couldn't handle.. It's fine..

At least Christina and those other Christians were somewhat open-minded. You are just plain ignorant. lol.. :D

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not a very nice person to know
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<fume> Grr i really want to give bad rep but i cant : </fume>

to dave sinkula

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*sigh* I wonder what has happened to the kids nowadays -- no respect for elders.
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haha.. you just don't understand. Go back and read through this thread if you want more evidence. It's all around you.. but you just can't handle the truth.

Pot. Kettle. Black. [echo?]

You've been a christian forever, and you can't imagine a world without your precious god.

Not entirely true. But obviously an assumption of a highly religious person.

It is YOU who is in denial. YOU who does not understand. There is no god. There is nothing, but you want a god to exist. Your life depends on it.

I'm beginning to think you've got that backwards.

And until you can open your mind and stop being so defensive.. I wont tell you all the facts and evidence that your brain just couldn't handle.. It's fine..

It seems to me that you are the one on the defensive at the moment because your brain cannot handle it.

lol.. :D

If in fact you are not laughing out loud, try not to punctuate your own lack of depth.

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