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That would be the same as someone going and rewriting Harry Potter. You wouldn't do it. The only reason that these men would write down the same story is if they simply wanted their experiences told.

Harry Potter is a bad example as it has been rewritten - heck there were HP books fabricated that had not relationship to anything hp-ish in other countries in other languages. YOU would not do it but that does not mean it would not be done.
I can understand how someone would want to write down their own experiences but why would they want to write someone else's experiences ie - copy what someone else has written.

The book of Judas(if it is actually real) would of been written before he knew anything about his betrayal of Jesus or that he would kill him self.

It is the Gospels that tells us he committed suicide; these gospels were written at least 20 years after the death. Why would Judas gospel be written before he betrayed JC?

I think you actually need to do some proper research before you start ranting about all this stuff. The kind of evidence that you are looking for can not be found from later times let alone 2000 years ago. If the majority of letters from 200 years ago can not be found what makes you think that letters from 2000 years ago would have lasted. Not only that but the majority of the people did not know how to write back then and neither could they afford to pay other people to write out such letters for them.

Historians/archaeologists have letters written from the time of Gilgamesh which is approximately the first known written alphabet <an interesting digression here is that the letters began with the phrase "Please tell " they are actually telling the letter to tell the recipient:>. People who write letters are by definition at least semi-literate. Yes, paper, papyrus, clay tablets, grafitti all survive the centuries (as you mention, the Dead Sea Scrolls and various other finds). A parchment book written by Archimedes has been discovered and copied even though all his writing was scraped off so a monk could put down some religious text over it.

They rely on these things for more recent history. Not that far back. The majority of information gathered from that far back comes from things like ruins, engravings and other bits of old clay and stone. Things that last. What little they have found, things like the dead sea scrolls and other texts confirm alot of the texts in the bible.

This thread is about the new testament/gospels here not the 'bible'. I am not sure how the scrolls would 'confirm' the bible; the bible is a collection of books that were brought together back during one of the jewish exiles (I think it was the Babylonian empire that had enslaved them at the time and they thought they were doomed as a race/religion so they gathered their stories into a book/books). The 2 most 'popular' theories are that the DS scrolls were written between 2nd Century BCE and 1st Century CE and buried either by the Essenes or by the Saducceans. The Essenes believing in the soul and life after death and the Saducceans not. The rules and laws found seem to correspond to the era of the 2nd temple of Jerusalem.
You should keep in mind that 'the Jews' were not a unified, homogenous group - there were at least as many different 'Jews' as there are 'Christians' now.

There was no scrapes. There was no cuts. There was no burns. There was no death. Pain and feeling are separate things. They would have been able to feel things and touch things.

This implies that they did not move. I was told they did not have any clothes so they must have been pricked by thorns, scraped by bark, shins barked by rocks, toes stubbed in the dark. Pain is a survival mechanism, pain tells the body my foot is in the fire, I should move it.

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Harry Potter is a bad example as it has been rewritten - heck there were HP books fabricated that had not relationship to anything hp-ish in other countries in other languages. YOU would not do it but that does not mean it would not be done.
I can understand how someone would want to write down their own experiences but why would they want to write someone else's experiences ie - copy what someone else has written.

They wanted to write down Jesus' story so that it could be passed on. Its as simple as that.

It is the Gospels that tells us he committed suicide; these gospels were written at least 20 years after the death. Why would Judas gospel be written before he betrayed JC?

It was either written before his betrayal, its a fake, or it was written by someone else who knew nothing about the situation.

Historians/archaeologists have letters written from the time of Gilgamesh which is approximately the first known written alphabet <an interesting digression here is that the letters began with the phrase "Please tell " they are actually telling the letter to tell the recipient:>. People who write letters are by definition at least semi-literate. Yes, paper, papyrus, clay tablets, grafitti all survive the centuries (as you mention, the Dead Sea Scrolls and various other finds). A parchment book written by Archimedes has been discovered and copied even though all his writing was scraped off so a monk could put down some religious text over it.

Actually the oldest writing found was from babylon written in clay. A substance that is much more durable and likely to stand up to the tests of time. By Jesus' day things were written on biodegradable substances that would not really last the century, let alone 2 millenia. By your reasoning none of the people back then existed because there is no written historical evidence about them. Infact really using this reasoning there was only about 100 people alive back then. The Bible itself comes from historical texts. Just because it is the Bible does not make such texts any less legitimate or historical.

This thread is about the new testament/gospels here not the 'bible'. I am not sure how the scrolls would 'confirm' the bible; the bible is a collection of books that were brought together back during one of the jewish exiles (I think it was the Babylonian empire that had enslaved them at the time and they thought they were doomed as a race/religion so they gathered their stories into a book/books). The 2 most 'popular' theories are that the DS scrolls were written between 2nd Century BCE and 1st Century CE and buried either by the Essenes or by the Saducceans. The Essenes believing in the soul and life after death and the Saducceans not. The rules and laws found seem to correspond to the era of the 2nd temple of Jerusalem.
You should keep in mind that 'the Jews' were not a unified, homogenous group - there were at least as many different 'Jews' as there are 'Christians' now.

This thread is actually about Christianity. One of the main elements of Christianity is the Bible. There was actually 12 tribes. All believed the same thing however some of them did lose their way. In the end God stepped in with Jesus and started a new way of being saved and wiped out the relevence of the Jewish religion.

This implies that they did not move. I was told they did not have any clothes so they must have been pricked by thorns, scraped by bark, shins barked by rocks, toes stubbed in the dark. Pain is a survival mechanism, pain tells the body my foot is in the fire, I should move it.

How does it imply that they could not move. None of those things even existed. It was not possible to scrape yourself or hurt yourself in any way. Yes if someone could not feel anything today then they probably would not survive long. At that point in time however it was completely different to the things that we know today.

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They wanted to write down Jesus' story so that it could be passed on. Its as simple as that.

but why didn't they write JC's story in their own words like John did?

It was either written before his betrayal, its a fake, or it was written by someone else who knew nothing about the situation.

this makes no sense, you left out a lot of different possibilities including that Judas wrote it after he betrayed JC.


Actually the oldest writing found was from babylon written in clay. A substance that is much more durable and likely to stand up to the tests of time.

not a great deal more durable - they just made mud pies in a frame, wrote in it, then baked it - these things shatter and/or turn back to mud reall easily

By Jesus' day things were written on biodegradable substances that would not really last the century, let alone 2 millenia.

just what do you think the Dead Sea Scrolls are?

By your reasoning none of the people back then existed because there is no written historical evidence about them. Infact really using this reasoning there was only about 100 people alive back then.

wtf - I don't understand this point; if on the one had the DSScrolls prove the bible and on the other hand are written on paper and don't exist, you leave me with ??

The Bible itself comes from historical texts. Just because it is the Bible does not make such texts any less legitimate or historical.

I understand that you believe in the bible and in the New Testament; please try to keep beliefs separate from knowledge. Beliefs need no proof, the bible needs no proof, but if you want to prove the bible then you have to come up with something.

This thread is actually about Christianity. One of the main elements of Christianity is the Bible. There was actually 12 tribes. All believed the same thing however some of them did lose their way. In the end God stepped in with Jesus and started a new way of being saved and wiped out the relevence of the Jewish religion.

that is what I was trying to say earlier. Christianity is not the bible, Christianity is the New Testament


How does it imply that they could not move. None of those things even existed. It was not possible to scrape yourself or hurt yourself in any way. Yes if someone could not feel anything today then they probably would not survive long. At that point in time however it was completely different to the things that we know today.

you are saying there were no rocks, no cactus, no sharp pointy things??

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but why didn't they write JC's story in their own words like John did?

Umm.... It was?

this makes no sense, you left out a lot of different possibilities including that Judas wrote it after he betrayed JC.

Judas killed himself after he betrayed jesus and realised what he had done.

not a great deal more durable - they just made mud pies in a frame, wrote in it, then baked it - these things shatter and/or turn back to mud reall easily just what do you think the Dead Sea Scrolls are? wtf - I don't understand this point; if on the one had the DSScrolls prove the bible and on the other hand are written on paper and don't exist, you leave me with ?? I understand that you believe in the bible and in the New Testament; please try to keep beliefs separate from knowledge. Beliefs need no proof, the bible needs no proof, but if you want to prove the bible then you have to come up with something.

Im saying that the evidence that has survived you have discredited because there is not as much evidence as you would like. I am saying that while there is not that much evidence there is actually significant evidence.

that is what I was trying to say earlier. Christianity is not the bible, Christianity is the New Testament

While the laws in the old testament do not apply to Christians it is still a large part of the christian faith and there is alot to be learnt from it.

you are saying there were no rocks, no cactus, no sharp pointy things??

I'm saying that even if there was things like this it was impossible for any harm to be done by them. Humans were completely Immortal.

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Is there really any bona fide scientist amongst all these posters? I doubt it seriously!

Looks like the thread has turned into a general "I believe in this or that" thing.

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Originally Posted by lasher511
but why didn't they write JC's story in their own words like John did?

Umm.... It was?

The question was "why are Matt, Mark, & Luke's stories nearly identical / word for word while John's is completely different" Your answer does not seem to address this question

this makes no sense, you left out a lot of different possibilities including that Judas wrote it after he betrayed JC. Judas killed himself after he betrayed jesus and realised what he had done.

Well, this is open to intepretation - from anger over the wasting the really expensive oil on a prostitute to 'the devil made him do it' to " he is not the evil, corrupt, devil-inspired follower of Jesus who betrayed his master; he is instead Jesus' closest intimate and friend, the one who understood Jesus better than anyone else, who turned Jesus over to the authorities because Jesus wanted him to do so"

not a great deal more durable - they just made mud pies in a frame, wrote in it, then baked it - these things shatter and/or turn back to mud reall easily just what do you think the Dead Sea Scrolls are? wtf - I don't understand this point; if on the one had the DSScrolls prove the bible and on the other hand are written on paper and don't exist, you leave me with ?? I understand that you believe in the bible and in the New Testament; please try to keep beliefs separate from knowledge. Beliefs need no proof, the bible needs no proof, but if you want to prove the bible then you have to come up with something.
Im saying that the evidence that has survived you have discredited because there is not as much evidence as you would like. I am saying that while there is not that much evidence there is actually significant evidence.

. Let me get this straight - JC fed 5000 people with a couple of fish and loaves of bread; where ever he traveled, he was followed by 1000's of people, raised people from the dead, changed water into wine, commanded 2000 pigs to run into a lake and drown themselves (wtf??) and no one wrote anything about it while it was happening. There is not one single reference to him until 64 years CE (in the bible) and the first gospel was written at least year 70 CE

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Is there really any bona fide scientist amongst all these posters? I doubt it seriously!

Thread creep is a terrible thing, sigh!

ps BONA FIDE - Lat. In good faith; without fraud or deceit.

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The question was "why are Matt, Mark, & Luke's stories nearly identical / word for word while John's is completely different" Your answer does not seem to address this question

Have you ever actually read the gospels or are you just going by what you have been told?

Well, this is open to intepretation - from anger over the wasting the really expensive oil on a prostitute to 'the devil made him do it' to " he is not the evil, corrupt, devil-inspired follower of Jesus who betrayed his master; he is instead Jesus' closest intimate and friend, the one who understood Jesus better than anyone else, who turned Jesus over to the authorities because Jesus wanted him to do so"

According to this text he was Jesus' Closest friend. In actual fact such a text offers no proof that it was true. Lazarus was probably one of Jesus' closest friends. The fact that Judas did betray Jesus came as a shock to all the Deciples. This means that Jesus, like with all his deciples, was very good friends with Judas.

. Let me get this straight - JC fed 5000 people with a couple of fish and loaves of bread; where ever he traveled, he was followed by 1000's of people, raised people from the dead, changed water into wine, commanded 2000 pigs to run into a lake and drown themselves (wtf??) and no one wrote anything about it while it was happening. There is not one single reference to him until 64 years CE (in the bible) and the first gospel was written at least year 70 CE

As i have said before. Yes this would have been a big thing. That does not mean that if any such texts ever existed that they would have survived. These people would not have been well educated and probably not able to write well if at all. Your also forgetting that most families at the time would have all been under one roof. They would have lived together, eaten together and worked together. It was very rare that a member of this family would have been traveling much further then a weeks walk and if they did go further would be very hard to track down with a letter. This means that most communication would have been done verbally between the family and told to friends in the form of a story. Not written down.

Once again however. These stories have been written down in the form of the gospels.

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Will the missing scientist please come foreward! Otherwise, let's shoot this thread and give it the befitting finish it deserves.

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Will the missing scientist please come foreward! Otherwise, let's shoot this thread and give it the befitting finish it deserves.

Lol if people keep posting then i keep posting. I do agree though this thread has gone downhill significantly.

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Lol if people keep posting then i keep posting. I do agree though this thread has gone downhill significantly.

Okay, you will be in charge of the funeral festivities.

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Creationism. Nice word. Not mutually exclusive of Evolution, after all, the initial "stuff" had to "come from" somewhere ... and thus, had to be created. The problem is that humans, scientifc or religious, are too simple minded to grasp the maginitude of all of "this" .. so they look for simple answers and then stand by their chosen "answer" come hell or high water.

Let me be clear on this. NONE OF YOU ARE "RIGHT"..

The bible was "written" by MEN. Men who were as flawed as you or I.

And science, well, it really doesn't "get it" at all if it believes that science will eventually explain the very beginning.

The mind of man is capable of som much more than the two petty trains of thought that comprise most of this argument. Truly smart people don't bother to engage in it, you guys are so far off base on both sides of the arguement.

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The mind of man is capable of som much more than the two petty trains of thought that comprise most of this argument. Truly smart people don't bother to engage in it, you guys are so far off base on both sides of the arguement.

Glad you could clear that right up for all.

Nothing more to discuss here, people. Move along.

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Nuh, uh - I saw that leg twitch - this horse ain't dead yet, think we should flog is a couple more time.

ps the sure way to kill a thread is to insult the folk participating in it (please note that this is actually biting satire - not an accurate assessment) and why the heck are you reading the thread anyway?
pps a better way to kill the thread is to call the other guy a nazi and liken him to hitler - the horse don't twitch after that

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ps the sure way to kill a thread is to insult the folk participating in it (please note that this is actually biting satire - not an accurate assessment) and why the heck are you reading the thread anyway?
pps a better way to kill the thread is to call the other guy a nazi and liken him to hitler - the horse don't twitch after that

It's also helpful if that post is your first after registering :)

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Okay, I see I'm guilty of a breach of etiquitte. I don't mean to insult, but to put things in perspective. I keep hoping to find intelligence out there. I get tired of seeing the focus on these commonplace issues that pass for intellectual debate.

Science. Bah. Religion. Bah. God. Ha ha ha.

Where'd it all come from? Go take a look at ALL of it, then you'll know. Until you can do that, your discussion is trivial, when you can do that, you won't be having this discussion.

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Where'd it all come from? Go take a look at ALL of it, then you'll know. Until you can do that, your discussion is trivial, when you can do that, you won't be having this discussion.

Such comments are trivial as well, unless you can actually add anything of substance. Perhaps you have some more "intellectual" information that you would like to share?

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> ps the sure way to kill a thread is to insult the folk participating in it
I agree completely. A few blunt comments here and there with a bit of mud slinging will be instrumental in putting this thread to sleep.

PS: We have done this before... ;-)

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...
The bible was "written" by MEN. Men who were as flawed as you or I.
...

Yes, it was written by men (perhaps women), but the content of their writing was dictated to them by some higher object, like a burning bush in the desert.

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Yes, it was written by men (perhaps women), but the content of their writing was dictated to them by some higher object, like a burning bush in the desert.

So they hit the hash pipe a little too hard that day, eh?

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Yes, it was written by men (perhaps women), but the content of their writing was dictated to them by some higher object, like a burning bush in the desert.

all self referrential / circular bs with one purpose only. to keep you in the fold.

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> ps the sure way to kill a thread is to insult the folk participating in it
I agree completely. A few blunt comments here and there with a bit of mud slinging will be instrumental in putting this thread to sleep.

PS: We have done this before... ;-)

Calling it mud slinging is only a way to ignore what's being said.

Religious types (scientists too, science is just a different religion) all NEED their beliefs, which is why they fight anyone who contradicts them. This fighting to hold on is what keeps them from looking deeper and actually learning to think for themselves.

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Yes, it was written by men (perhaps women), but the content of their writing was dictated to them by some higher object, like a burning bush in the desert.

and your proof of that is .... oh, yes, the book itself.

they did a great job on you.

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What a bunch of intellectual Nazi's. When you try and kill this thread it is like Hitler killing the Jews, gypsies, and homos.

I fight for the right aimless thread-wars everywhere.

Ps The record for the long thread-war (not flame-war) has not been set because every couple months, the participants pop back up, poke each other with dull sticks for a couple of weeks -- one is in soc.politics (I actually forget the newsgroup name but just imagine the bull-headed fun in a group based on the sociology of politics vs the politics of sociology)

pps - my bad - there is actually a newsgroup called alt.fan.longest-thread; I am not even going to there (I can feel my 'post' finger quivvering even now).

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Calling it mud slinging is only a way to ignore what's being said.

Religious types (scientists too, science is just a different religion) all NEED their beliefs, which is why they fight anyone who contradicts them. This fighting to hold on is what keeps them from looking deeper and actually learning to think for themselves.

See, you just had to poke me with a dull stick didn,t you! You somehow equate science with not thinking, with beliefs. You actually have no idea what science is.

Heh, Heh - welcome to posting twit-hood.

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Heh, Heh - welcome to posting twit-hood.

He achieved that status on his first post. Those following were merely additional cement.

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Science might be a religion, it builds temples (the fancier the better), practices a form of ancestry worship, has a papal like Nobel committee, publishes science literature, has science clubs to indoctrinate the young, people involved in science follow a distinct hierarchy as they advance in their science knowledge, gets involved in politics, and more ...

Do they promise you heaven once you die?

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