Collins: Why this scientist believes in God - Page 7

[christina>you]

It IS a joke.

But, I'm sure I'll burn in hell for it.

I guess :rolleyes:

[M_K_Higa]

Come on, dude. Some jokes are better left untold. Bad taste.

[RTC]

Hmm, currently 13 pages. These issues are never easy, simple, cut. or dried. . . . and Neat they are most definitely not. At least this is in a tech forum and not a science blog. Those things can be totally brutal.

When you start really digging into an area of science the more messy and involved it gets. On the surface Macro Evolution (yes, I need to distinquish between the two) is the generally accepted scientific theory. Unlike the "Big Bang", or Reletivity though, when you really delve into it and origin of life papers you can tell it is at best incomplete or uncomprehensive, and at worst needs some reworking or could be moved in another direction. To those scientists who dedicate their efforts to investigating these questions, kudo's to them, but they definitely have a lot of work cut out ahead of them.

Current hurdles in the field include some of the following: (Warning, I am not a scientist, just a nerd with too many questions and too much time on his hands that does way too much reading, and All I ever learn is that I know less now than I thought I new before. I eat my humble pie. I ask for seconds too.)

The Cambrian Explosion. Over a very short period of geological time (5 to 15 million years according to scientific dating estimates and the fossil record.), almost all of our current species appear yet since then there really hasn't been much except extinctions.

Organisms with identical or exceptionaly similar morphologies but yet share no common genetic anscestry, This is called convergence, and explaining it is problematic for the current evolutionary theories.

Currently establishing the biological pathways for a primordial soup is elusive. Carbon monixide levels along with many other factors seem to make the creation of life in that way impossible. It seems the ingredients and conditions to create biological molecules at on stage would destroy or stop them from forming the next. This has led many researchers to head into the direction of what on the surface would appear to be farther out theories like panspermia.

Simultaneous emergance of divergent but yet symbiotic organisms. Right now Scientists are up to scenerios of 3 totally distinct unrelated organisms that could not survive at all if it weren't for each other.

And whats truly scary, is from an evolutionary standpoint, it is only small critters, with massive populations, and rabid gestation cycles and who have large numbers of offspring where the probable balance of beneficial to harmful mutations swings into the favor of beneficial.... Which is more than likely why beetles, rats, cockroaches, bacteria, and other vermin seem to survive everything and have been around the longest while large bodied advanced animals like dinosaurs, whales, and ... quite frighteningly to me... Humans... have a tendancy to go extinct. As a side note, radiation hardiness... which the aforementioned vermine have in spades, but we people seriously lack... Is also a concern. One Massive Super or HyperNova too close to us and BAM! I know, one's not supposed to happen probability speaking for another 500,000 years or so... but still, if thats all it would take to wipe the chalk board it changes your perspective on the power of the universe.

But I digress, what I'm really saying is that whereas some scientific theories are very strong, like the big bang, that defeats opposing models such as the constant state theory, and many others repeatedly, and Einstein's theory of reletivity, which is constantly tested and seen to predict the reality of measurements,and so show a high probability of roughly approximating reality. Others, though generally accepted because they do seem to best describe what we see from a naturalistic view, are in no means as polished and tested. I would not feel comfortable at all betting my life on macro evolution, I predict the end model, as research continues will diverge greatly from currently held theory, And in general, I know science is never done, but Origin of Life research has a long long long way to go.

Also a parting note, Current Big Bang Cosmology indicates that the Universe had a finite beginning, and if everyting continues on its current course, will continue expanding, thus cooling, and in more possible years than I can fathom burn out as matter will be too spread out to form starforming regions. It is however currently not predicted to go through a big crunch and start all over again... Thus it seems the universe began at a finite beginning from a transcendental event, and naturalistically unless something happens or intervenes, all current knowledge indicates a cold dead ending... no cyclic rebirths.

[joshSCH]

When you start really digging into an area of science the more messy and involved it gets. On the surface Macro Evolution (yes, I need to distinquish between the two) is the generally accepted scientific theory.

Actually, it's microevolution that most people are okay with. Natural selection and very small forms of evolution have actually been seen since the beginning of the human race. Macroevolution, the idea of large scale evolution (from monkeys to man) is disputed. However, both are connected.. Personally, I believe our current findings through DNA testing and the genome project has proven evolution thoroughly enough.

And whats truly scary, is from an evolutionary standpoint, it is only small critters, with massive populations, and rabid gestation cycles and who have large numbers of offspring where the probable balance of beneficial to harmful mutations swings into the favor of beneficial.... Which is more than likely why beetles, rats, cockroaches, bacteria, and other vermin seem to survive everything and have been around the longest while large bodied advanced animals like dinosaurs, whales, and ... quite frighteningly to me... Humans... have a tendancy to go extinct. As a side note, radiation hardiness... which the aforementioned vermine have in spades, but we people seriously lack... Is also a concern. One Massive Super or HyperNova too close to us and BAM! I know, one's not supposed to happen probability speaking for another 500,000 years or so... but still, if thats all it would take to wipe the chalk board it changes your perspective on the power of the universe.

Yes, the HIV virus is a perfect example. It replicates so quickly, that It can easily avoid our medicines through natural selection. Viruses and bacteria evolve much more quickly than humans or any other animals. HIV can rapidly evolve, and become immune to almost any treatment. I think it will be some small virus or bacteria that will eventually kill us off. Especially since the discovery of penicillin has lead to overuse of the antibacterial. Eventually, some super virus will evolve, and kill much quicker than HIV...

Also a parting note, Current Big Bang Cosmology indicates that the Universe had a finite beginning, and if everyting continues on its current course, will continue expanding, thus cooling, and in more possible years than I can fathom burn out as matter will be too spread out to form starforming regions. It is however currently not predicted to go through a big crunch and start all over again... Thus it seems the universe began at a finite beginning from a transcendental event, and naturalistically unless something happens or intervenes, all current knowledge indicates a cold dead ending... no cyclic rebirths.

Yes, as I said: Everything that has a beginning, ultimately has an end. Infinity is not real.. History, science, mathematics all prove that nothing can ever be infinite. Einstein's theory of relativity uses this idea.. Calculus does.. And since the beginning of mankind, we have never known anything that had an infinite characteristic. The universe will one day reach its maximum expansion, cool to temperatures near absolute zero, and theoretically implode.. destroying everything. (Fermion-boson theory).

[sharkey]

Ok, I read that whole damn thing. Now I have to chime in.

First off, all of life is faith. I believe in atoms and molecules but have never seen them just like many people believe in God but have never seen him.

I tend to believe in a divine creator and micro evolution.

I have major issues with religion in general though. The majority of religions share the same concepts and borrow (evolve) from one another.

Christianity is not unique. Not Christmas, Christmas Trees, Easter, the ressurection or virgin birth.

Just because Christ had martrys mean nothing. There are plenty of people willing to die for their virgins in Iraq.

Those of you who want to share his message to every nation are condeming millions of people to hell in your beliefs, ignorance is bliss right? That's not mercy.

The biggest issue I have? If God is all knowing he know's he can't trust humans to choose the right religion so should not condemn those who fail to.

Sorry, gotta pick up a friend from the airport so no spell checking was done.

[joshSCH]

Ok, I read that whole damn thing. Now I have to chime in.

haha.. hope it didn't take you too long.. Now I get to dissect your post:mrgreen:

First off, all of life is faith. I believe in atoms and molecules but have never seen them just like many people believe in God but have never seen him.

True to some extend; however, we have actual proof that atoms and molecules exist. You can actually go online and find mathematical/scientific tests proving their existence. This is not the same for god. There is absolutely no proof a supreme being exists... Only holes in current scientific knowledge where a 'god' may fit in.

I have major issues with religion in general though. The majority of religions share the same concepts and borrow (evolve) from one another.

Christianity is not unique. Not Christmas, Christmas Trees, Easter, the ressurection or virgin birth.

True, we can date many religions back to the ancient pagans and polytheism.

Those of you who want to share his message to every nation are condeming millions of people to hell in your beliefs, ignorance is bliss right? That's not mercy.

No kidding.. Christianity tends to have the "My way or the highway" attitude towards all others. Christians just want to convert everyone, and don't really give a damn about the people's previous beliefs/customs/traditions. Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe immediately comes to mind. The Christians are too aggressive, and unyielding to any ideas that may seem unorthodox.

What happens to people who have never known god? People who were never forced to convert by missionaries.. or who never grew up with faith.. or who believed in some other religion? They may never have been baptized, followed the ten commandments, or even known about christianity. What happens to them? If there was some god, would he not want us all to believe and praise him?

What about all the disease and murder throughout the world? If god is the ultimate creator.. he must have created AIDS, Alzheimer's, Polio.. snakes, sharks, etc. Why would he create something that would torture his people? People die needlessly everyday from these diseases. That is something I could never quite comprehend. I mean, okay.. all the murders, and torture by other human beings was the work of the devil. But, Christians believe that god created EVERYTHING. The devil cannot create, only tempt people. Why would god create such diseases and animals capable of causing us great pain? Does he enjoy looking down at us, and seeing us suffer- to scream in pain and agony. :?:

[sharkey]

I'm back.

I wanted to expand on some statements I've made.

A good article on a very offensive site, the content is relevant to this discussion though, I in no way subscribe to the their ideoligy.

http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/hwr17a.htm

Or let's link to a the new bible called Wiki, it's a little more neutral.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_birth#Possible_borrowing_from_Paganism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#Christmas_tree_and_other_decorations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

And some of you mentioned infinity. String Theory tells us that the universe is not infinate. There is no vacuum in the universe, space is composed of strings or knots and space has a smallest unit. That's getting into quantum physics or mysticism, your pick. This theory is unproven as all theories are not facts as stated earlier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory

Since Christianity is just repacking of old ideas why should I believe it. It is not original.

[WaltP]

It IS a joke.

But, I'm sure I'll burn in hell for it.

Why wait? I've got matches... :twisted:

Also a parting note, Current Big Bang Cosmology indicates that the Universe had a finite beginning, and if everyting continues on its current course, will continue expanding, thus cooling, and in more possible years than I can fathom burn out as matter will be too spread out to form starforming regions. It is however currently not predicted to go through a big crunch and start all over again... Thus it seems the universe began at a finite beginning from a transcendental event, and naturalistically unless something happens or intervenes, all current knowledge indicates a cold dead ending... no cyclic rebirths.

Yes, as I said: Everything that has a beginning, ultimately has an end. Infinity is not real.. History, science, mathematics all prove that nothing can ever be infinite.

I still don't buy this stuff. Just because humans can't really conceive of infinity and something with no ending or beginning, they have to come up with something bizarre to explain a beginning -- like "The Big Bang". I just can't fathom the concept that all the mass and energy of the existing universe started as a single infinitesimal point and exploded the universe into existence. It makes more sense to me that the universe has always existed, and is currently in it's expanding phase. Eventually it'll contract to a minimum size and start expanding again. Like one of those resperator masks in those hospital shows. That makes more sense to me. This also fits my concept of the makeup of the universe and dimensions (2D, 3D, 4D, etc), including Einstein's Curvature of Space idea.

[sharkey]

haha.. hope it didn't take you too long.. Now I get to dissect your post:mrgreen:

True to some extend; however, we have actual proof that atoms and molecules exist. You can actually go online and find mathematical/scientific tests proving their existence. This is not the same for god. There is absolutely no proof a supreme being exists... Only holes in current scientific knowledge where a 'god' may fit in.

You fail to see my point. The scientists tell me their theories have been proven as much as the Christians feel the Bible is the true word of God.

I do not have access to the lab equipment necessary to prove many of these experiments myself. I have no way to know I'm not being hoodwinked by an opressive scientific movement. I believe what the scientists say without having run the experiments myself anyways. That is faith. To prevent it from being faith I would need to personally test the theories.

My experiences give me rationale for those beliefs, my faith in many scientific theories is not blind, but it is faith none the less.

[joshSCH]

I'm back.
And some of you mentioned infinity. String Theory tells us that the universe is not infinate. There is no vacuum in the universe, space is composed of strings or knots and space has a smallest unit. That's getting into quantum physics or mysticism, your pick. This theory is unproven as all theories are not facts as stated earlier.

Yay, finally someone to back me up a little bit. Most scientists do not believe the universe in infinite.. Even some kind of oscillation of 'big bangs' and implosions, would be finite b/c of the law of conservation of momentum. One day, same as everything else, the universe will be no more...

The entire point I have been trying to make with this argument is that through science and math, one can prove that infinity does not exist. Nothing can live forever. Therefore, how can god, or an afterlife exist? Both would involve infinity, which has never been seen as a characteristic of anything in our universe today. God can't exist, b/c nothing can live forever.. nothing could have always existed.. Besides, wut the hell are you going to do in afterlife for eternity? Thats a long time of doing absolutely nothing..

[sharkey]

Why wait? I've got matches... :twisted:

I still don't buy this stuff. Just because humans can't really conceive of infinity and something with no ending or beginning, they have to come up with something bizarre to explain a beginning -- like "The Big Bang". I just can't fathom the concept that all the mass and energy of the existing universe started as a single infinitesimal point and exploded the universe into existence. It makes more sense to me that the universe has always existed, and is currently in it's expanding phase. Eventually it'll contract to a minimum size and start expanding again. Like one of those resperator masks in those hospital shows. That makes more sense to me. This also fits my concept of the makeup of the universe and dimensions (2D, 3D, 4D, etc), including Einstein's Curvature of Space idea.

You really need to study quantum physics and the holographic principle. Nothing is infinate. The universe is basically a system of information flowing from one place to the other. Entropy is a major factor here. There is a limit on the amount of information a unit of space can hold. The holographic principle shows that the amount of information you can retrieve from a system is limited to it's horizon. A major bummer for quantum computers.:sad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle

[sharkey]

Yay, finally someone to back me up a little bit. Most scientists do not believe the universe in infinite.. Even some kind of oscillation of 'big bangs' and implosions, would be finite b/c of the law of conservation of momentum. One day, same as everything else, the universe will be no more...

The entire point I have been trying to make with this argument is that through science and math, one can prove that infinity does not exist. Nothing can live forever. Therefore, how can god, or an afterlife exist? Both would involve infinity, which has never been seen as a characteristic of anything in our universe today. God can't exist, b/c nothing can live forever.. nothing could have always existed.. Besides, wut the hell are you going to do in afterlife for eternity? Thats a long time of doing absolutely nothing..

After my great post now I get to be like religions. I'm going to contradict myself, :twisted:

This universe does not support infinity but we may be a single brane (universe) in an area of millions.

The double slit experiment does say that a photon takes infinate (all) paths.

Some day I'll learn to spell.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_slit

By the way the laws of entropy and thermodynamics are violated all the time on an extremly small scale. The just don't get violated on a Macro scale in our experience. You'll have to google that, Wiki doesn't go that deep into stuff.

[joshSCH]

I still don't buy this stuff. Just because humans can't really conceive of infinity and something with no ending or beginning, they have to come up with something bizarre to explain a beginning -- like "The Big Bang". I just can't fathom the concept that all the mass and energy of the existing universe started as a single infinitesimal point and exploded the universe into existence. It makes more sense to me that the universe has always existed, and is currently in it's expanding phase. Eventually it'll contract to a minimum size and start expanding again. Like one of those resperator masks in those hospital shows. That makes more sense to me. This also fits my concept of the makeup of the universe and dimensions (2D, 3D, 4D, etc), including Einstein's Curvature of Space idea.

But, as the universe expands, it uses energy. Space is constantly cooling, and one day when most stars have become black stars and lost their energy... the temperature of the universe will approach absolute zero. They have recently done tests to see what happens at such low temperatures, and have discovered that the atoms come apart.. that’s about as much of it as I can comprehend lol:rolleyes: ..still got years of science to go be4 I understand most of it..

The theory of the beginning of the universe is very vague, you're right. It doesn't make much sense to me either, how mass can spontaneously produce an explosion.. But, It is illogical to believe in a supernatural being.. Just b/c we can't explain something (yet) doesn't mean its from some supernatural.

[joshSCH]

After my great post now I get to be like religions. I'm going to contradict myself, :twisted:

This universe does not support infinity but we may be a single brane (universe) in an area of millions.

The double slit experiment does say that a photon takes infinate (all) paths.

Yea, the multiverse theory does state that there could be many other universes. But it is no more true than any of the other ideas of the universe. But, we have not found any evidence of more than one universe yet..

Photons can be excluded from the 'infinity' rule, as they have no mass. Photons are simply particles.. the only particles that can reach the speed of light. They have irregular properties, but are still governed by the laws of physics. All other objects of mass require infinite mass and energy to reach the speed of light.. which is impossible.

[sharkey]

Glad to find some smart people who actually understand what I'm talking about. I'm more interested in hearing what the believers have to say. I am open minded.

[sharkey]

OT

Who said something like Christianity is the strangest religion set up by man, to forgive sins with murder?

I thought it was Thomas Jefferson but not sure. It was one of the founding fathers. Why everyone claims our founding fathers were Christian is beyond me, most of them were anti-christian.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=12272

[sharkey]

Gotta go to bed so last addicting post.

Intercessory prayer was mentioned earlier.

List of some studies, I can't find the one that was done by a woman and published in Discover Magazine years back and then found to be falsified, oh well.

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-09/miracle-study.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?ex=1301461200&en=4ecf3383e5b00000&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer#Experimental_evaluation_of_prayer

And just for fun:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling#Risks

[christina>you]

OT

Who said something like Christianity is the strangest religion set up by man, to forgive sins with murder?

I thought it was Thomas Jefferson but not sure. It was one of the founding fathers. Why everyone claims our founding fathers were Christian is beyond me, most of them were anti-christian.

Forgiving sins with murder was a belief in Judaism, in the Old Testament. You had to sacrifice a spotless lamb in the temple to become sinless again. When Jesus came, He was known as the "spotless lamb" whose purpose was to seek and save the lost. That is why He was crucified, but many do not understand this.

Most of our founding fathers were Christians (Protestant and Catholic).

[christina>you]

Christianity is not unique. Not Christmas, Christmas Trees, Easter, the ressurection or virgin birth.

Then what other religion is unique? Why does it matter if it's unique or not?

[christina>you]

No kidding.. Christianity tends to have the "My way or the highway" attitude towards all others. Christians just want to convert everyone, and don't really give a damn about the people's previous beliefs/customs/traditions. The Christians are too aggressive, and unyielding to any ideas that may seem unorthodox.

Ok, I understand that everyone here hates Christians, and I'm sorry you see them in that light. But please don't look at me with that point of view. If I seem too agreesive or unyielding, then please excuse me. But what about the fact that I haven't said anything bad about Athiests, Agnostics, etc.? I could say a lot of things concerning your beliefs, but I don't. I could say that Athiests are ignorant and in denial, but I realize that not all of them are like that. I listen to you and share my side of the story. Please do the same for me. :)

What happens to people who have never known god? People who were never forced to convert by missionaries.. or who never grew up with faith.. or who believed in some other religion? They may never have been baptized, followed the ten commandments, or even known about christianity. What happens to them? If there was some god, would he not want us all to believe and praise him?

I think it is our (Christians) duty to try and spread the Gospel of Jesus to people who just don't know or have never heard about Him, but if they never get the chance? - then I believe that is God's decision, not ours.

What about all the disease and murder throughout the world? If god is the ultimate creator.. he must have created AIDS, Alzheimer's, Polio.. snakes, sharks, etc. Why would he create something that would torture his people? People die needlessly everyday from these diseases. That is something I could never quite comprehend. I mean, okay.. all the murders, and torture by other human beings was the work of the devil. But, Christians believe that god created EVERYTHING. The devil cannot create, only tempt people. Why would god create such diseases and animals capable of causing us great pain? Does he enjoy looking down at us, and seeing us suffer- to scream in pain and agony. :?:

You know, I actually don't know either. If I find out, I'll tell you.

[pty]

Nothing can provide evidence for or against the existance of a god. It is a question of faith; some people believe and some don't. Attempting to prove the non-existance of something that has no evidence for existing is impossible.

I cannot prove that we don't all live in the matrix. Does it mean we do?

I really don't like to see children taking part in religious activities before they have had chance to make up their own mind. Its a shame that most, by the time they are old enough to have opinions, have had it so drummed into them there is no decision to make - they just do what mummy and daddy do.

[joshSCH]

Ok, I understand that everyone here hates Christians, and I'm sorry you see them in that light. But please don't look at me with that point of view. If I seem too agreesive or unyielding, then please excuse me. But what about the fact that I haven't said anything bad about Athiests, Agnostics, etc.? I could say a lot of things concerning your beliefs, but I don't. I could say that Athiests are ignorant and in denial, but I realize that not all of them are like that. I listen to you and share my side of the story. Please do the same for me. :)

I'm sorry that you got the impression that I hate Christians, b/c I do not. As I said earlier, my entire family is orthodox Catholic.. and I cannot hate them. It just seems that most Christians are closed minded b/c as pty says:

Its a shame that most, by the time they are old enough to have opinions, have had it so drummed into them there is no decision to make - they just do what mummy and daddy do.

But, you are right.. I shouldn't generalize all christians.

Nothing can provide evidence for or against the existance of a god. It is a question of faith; some people believe and some don't. Attempting to prove the non-existance of something that has no evidence for existing is impossible.

There is evidence for both sides.. There isn't much, and it may not be very reliable.. But perhaps someday we will be able to end this dispute.

You know, I actually don't know either. If I find out, I'll tell you.

Looking forward to other thoughts on this.

[pty]

There is evidence for both sides.. There isn't much, and it may not be very reliable.. But perhaps someday we will be able to end this dispute.

Out of interest, what is the evidence of a god other than holy texts (which aren't really evidence)?

[joshSCH]

Out of interest, what is the evidence of a god other than holy texts (which aren't really evidence)?

The holes in science, which cannot be fully explained. Such as the beginning of the universe.. No theory seems to adequately explain how the point of singularity came to be. Religious people tend to argue that if something cannot be explained, then it must be b/c of some supernatural being.

[sharkey]

What about all the disease and murder throughout the world? If god is the ultimate creator.. he must have created AIDS, Alzheimer's, Polio.. snakes, sharks, etc. Why would he create something that would torture his people? People die needlessly everyday from these diseases. That is something I could never quite comprehend. I mean, okay.. all the murders, and torture by other human beings was the work of the devil. But, Christians believe that god created EVERYTHING. The devil cannot create, only tempt people. Why would god create such diseases and animals capable of causing us great pain? Does he enjoy looking down at us, and seeing us suffer- to scream in pain and agony. :?:

My scripture is rusty but I think it's Genesis that says woman have child bearing pain and men have weeds in their fields to punish Man for Sin. So Christianity would preach that Man was meant to live forever in perfect health and happiness but sin brought pain and suffering.

Was God's plan to enlarge the earth when the population of everlasting people who give give birth forever reached in the trillions?

Even though I added that funny quote about atheism I can't claim to be atheist. I just don't believe in the Christian God of the Bible.
I was serious when I said that my main issue with God is a true omnipotent being would not expect a human to be able to choose the right religion out of thousands. We're too stupid. A god who would damn people to hell for making a wrong choice yet fully be aware of their spiritual limitation is evil.

P.S. I don't think anyone who has posted on this board hates Christians. We hate the religion not the follower. Now if only more Christians hated the sin and not the sinner.

Actually I don't hate the religion. It serves some purposes. I hate when any group of people try to force their views down my throat through legislation or otherwise. I hate when a religion oppresses and kills in the name of their god. I hate when a group of people claim and ice cream swirl logo looks like there sacred symbol and are offended.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/011556.php

[~s.o.s~]

> Religious people tend to argue that if something cannot be explained, then it must be b/c of some supernatural being.

Great, now I finally know the bug in my project is nothing but a supernatural doing...;)

[joshSCH]

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/011556.php

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1951292005
omfg, now that is just plain STUPID.. :mad: It's a damn logo!! I can't believe Burger King actually recalled their ice cream just because some idiotic muslim was offended. I'm sick and tired of "political correctness" and everyone worrying about offending people.. I mean, who cares?? Burger King made a logo of swirling ice cream, and is forced to recall it b/c some fool finds it offensive.. ah bo who, y don't you cry about it? Pretty soon, we won't be able to do anything b/c everyone finds everything offensive! What the hell happened to the constitutional rights? You should be able to print whatever you want. Why should Burger King change their logo simply b/c someone finds it offensive?

I side with the conservatives on this one, screw being "politically correct". It's the same with the atheists trying to change the pledge, getting rid of 'prayer' in school, and people saying "happy Holidays" instead of "merry Christmas". I mean, I'm an atheist, and I really don't care.. most atheists don't care. If you take the time to go complain to the supreme court about religion, then your not really atheist, b/c atheists wouldn't freakn care! Same with the pledge and "In God We Trust" on money. It has been like that for over 200 years!! Leave it alone! How do words and pictures offend people?? People need to quit their damn B****ing (I don't know how censored this forum is supposed to be:?: .. I don't think anything on the internet should be filtered, but w/e)

This goes along well with New York City banning the "N" word. I mean, I'm no expert on the constitution.. but I'm pretty sure censoring words completely violates the first amendment! People these days... Our society is changing for the worst. People need to quit complaining so much, and stop worrying about offending others.

[christina>you]

P.S. I don't think anyone who has posted on this board hates Christians. We hate the religion not the follower. Now if only more Christians hated the sin and not the sinner.

Actually I don't hate the religion. It serves some purposes. I hate when any group of people try to force their views down my throat through legislation or otherwise. I hate when a religion oppresses and kills in the name of their god. I hate when a group of people claim and ice cream swirl logo looks like there sacred symbol and are offended.

Then why did you say you hated it? That's like me saying... I don't hate the atheist I just hate everything they believe in... =/ It seems like atheists are more aggressive than Christians.

[lasher511]

"I hate when a religion oppresses and kills in the name of their god. I hate when a group of people claim and ice cream swirl logo looks like there sacred symbol and are offended."

I have to agree with you there im happy for people to have their own beliefs and all as long as they dont try and force them upon people who may not believe the same thing. For example last friday(good friday) i was yelled at by a woman who i had never even met for eating meat on good friday.(just curious does anyone know what that is acctually about because i have never even really heard about this before.) Ok your belief is fare enough and i respect your right to have that belief but don't try and push that on me when all i want is to be able to sit down and eat a nice lunch in the park.

[christina>you]

I have to agree with you there im happy for people to have their own beliefs and all as long as they dont try and force them upon people who may not believe the same thing. For example last friday(good friday) i was yelled at by a woman who i had never even met for eating meat on good friday.(just curious does anyone know what that is acctually about because i have never even really heard about this before.) Ok your belief is fare enough and i respect your right to have that belief but don't try and push that on me when all i want is to be able to sit down and eat a nice lunch in the park.

That's interesting... :?:
I've never heard about not eating meat on Good Friday.