Dark Matter & Dark Energy - Page 4

[christina>you]

Evolution is fact. If you disagree, then I suggest you do some more reading and research.

Evolution is a theory. Not a fact. Remember?

[joshSCH]

haha.. yes, but theories are scientific hypothesis that have been proven again and again, remember?

Most scientists today do believe that evolution is fact.. it just takes a while for theories to become laws..

[EnderX]

haha.. I see no evidence in either of your posts.. no links to data whatsoever.. There is tons of evidence for evolution, and I suggest you search for it instead of some christian site proclaiming bogus information relating to evolution and science alike. Evidence seems to be against you..

How about I toss out a couple of book titles at you instead? They'll have the information footnoted (or endnoted, or whatever) and you can look it up at your leisure. Sound fair?

[Serunson]

Well evolution does have some ground, good old panorama, i saw on this programme again a interesting debate about this.
A school refused to teach basic biology about evolution because the board of directors disagreed with the syllabus!
The government then took the school to court and won! The school was then forced to teach the syllabus as in the textbooks.

But back to dark matter and stuff, this is my kind of topic. i'd love to be a doctor of physics....... *sighs* ......but i do now about this sort of thing. To my limited knowledge, dark matter is the opposite of normal matter, You and Me, and makes up most of the immenseness which is our Universe. Now if you look out of a telescope into the darkness of space, the blackness i believe consists of the dark matter. All the bright spots are distant stars and galaxies.
That's what i know about it.

[EnderX]

The blackness isn't blackness, is it? I'd always understood it to be true space, a physical area with no intervening objects. Admittedly, most of what might be there doesn't hit blackbody or higher, so we don't see it, but it's supposed to be just empty, isn't it? Truly empty, or as close as the background radiation will let it become?

[DaveB]

Just some of my thoughts, having read this entire thread.

Dark Matter can be measured, it's a measured quantity, that upon having no explination for in Science, was called Dark Matter ..... mystery solved, QED :)

I believe Scientists have actually reasoned that there are 11 Dimensions, of which we inhabit 4. Anytime something mysteriously disapears from our known universe it's off partying in a new Dimension.

Religion is a system of control, do as the Bible says etc or go to Hell, written by people, not God. Different really from belief, and just because religion is fallable (sp), doesn't mean that the fundemental ideas of God are fiction.

Science predicts future events based on the observation of past events, so doesn't really "prove" anything.

Philosophy, or the little I have read, basically states that you can't prove the existance of anything outside of your own concious thought, (the old "I think therefore I am").

My experience, is that if you really try to discover some of the fundemental truths of the Universe, you only end up more confused, and pretty depressed. Best thing with life is to wing it, and hope for the best IMO.

(Apologies for poor word choice and spelling, tis late)

[DaveB]

haha.. yes, but theories are scientific hypothesis that have been proven again and again, remember?

Most scientists today do believe that evolution is fact.. it just takes a while for theories to become laws..

But still lots of theories or laws are disproven. In fact, if my Physics memory is still working, Newtons Laws of Physics was proved false by relativity, the whole thing about objects, that as they approach the speed of light becoming infinately massive blah blah... Light itself, is another stickler, because it doesn't follow alot of principles for either wave physics or particle physics. Conveniently they decided that Light acts as both waves and particles depending on which side of the bed you get out of.

Evolution though, makes sense really :-O

[joshSCH]

How about I toss out a couple of book titles at you instead? They'll have the information footnoted (or endnoted, or whatever) and you can look it up at your leisure. Sound fair?

If you have any evidence against evolution, I would be happy to show you that this evidence is untrue.

But back to dark matter and stuff, this is my kind of topic. i'd love to be a doctor of physics....... *sighs* ......but i do now about this sort of thing. To my limited knowledge, dark matter is the opposite of normal matter, You and Me, and makes up most of the immenseness which is our Universe. Now if you look out of a telescope into the darkness of space, the blackness i believe consists of the dark matter.

Incorrect.

Religion is a system of control, do as the Bible says etc or go to Hell, written by people, not God.

Agreed.

Science predicts future events based on the observation of past events, so doesn't really "prove" anything.

Science uses logic, and yes, through reasoning you can predict what will probably happen.. so yea, science can "prove" stuff.

But still lots of theories or laws are disproven. In fact, if my Physics memory is still working, Newtons Laws of Physics was proved false by relativity, the whole thing about objects, that as they approach the speed of light becoming infinately massive blah blah... Light itself, is another stickler, because it doesn't follow alot of principles for either wave physics or particle physics. Conveniently they decided that Light acts as both waves and particles depending on which side of the bed you get out of.

heh? Newton's laws of physics were never disproven.. For the one millionth time, descriptive laws, as in science, MUST ALWAYS be followed.. they can NEVER be broken. Relativity was simply an addition to Newton's laws of physics.. stating that masses traveling at very fast speeds are subject to relative motion.. Most notable relativistic science include the fact that as a massive object approaches the speed of light, c, then its mass and energy approach infinity, and therefore reaching the speed of light is impossible for humans. However, photons, or light particles, are massless which is why they can travel at the speed of light.. Also, relativity introduces time dilation, and some pretty complex and interesting ideas.. Bottom line, the laws of physics have never been broken, and never can be broken. Period.

Scientific theories have been repeatedly tested and all predictions have been correct.. Basically, theories are FACT from what we understand so far (They still require a bit more testing and such, but are commonly regarded as the truth.)

[EnderX]

If you wish to attempt to disprove, then you may choose to do so. I would recommend the following as starting places:

Icons of Evolution, by Jonathan Wells. (Might be Jonathon Wells; can't remember for certain)

The Politically Incorrect Guide to Science, by Tom Bethell.

Have fun.

[joshSCH]

ahh hell.. books? You expect me to go and check out books from a library? What is this, the 19th century? lol... I guess I can try to acquire an ebook..

[Aia]

>What is this, the 19th century?
No, it is the 21.02.90_th BETA version.

[joshSCH]

ahh, right. Of course.. lol

[EnderX]

ahh hell.. books? You expect me to go and check out books from a library? What is this, the 19th century? lol... I guess I can try to acquire an ebook..

If you'll recall, I originally asked whether or not books would be acceptable; you replied that you'd attempt to disprove anything I tossed your way.

Have fun.

[joshSCH]

If you'll recall, I originally asked whether or not books would be acceptable; you replied that you'd attempt to disprove anything I tossed your way.

Have fun.

:-/ That's true; however, I thought you were referring to ebooks or an online source..

[Serunson]

well we could go on about the mass of white dwarfs.........

[joshSCH]

? What about the mass of white dwarfs?

[vegaseat]

Interesting indeed!
Us humble human beings can readily observe matter and energy, but not the state between the two. Let's postulate that 'dark matter' is this flux state, observed only by its gravitational pull. If you believe this, you sleep better at night. It has the soothing effect of a good sermon, those always put me to sleep too!

[joshSCH]

>but not the state between the two

Hm? Matter and energy are very similar, and can easily be converted, hence the equation E=mc^2

[twomers]

>> but not the state between the two

I dunno. Nagasaki, I think, gave us a good indication.

[EnderX]

:-/ That's true; however, I thought you were referring to ebooks or an online source..

I read a lot. Dead-tree format is often easier to carry around, and can even be read while an airplane is taking off or landing.

[quintoncoert]

@JoshSCH:
Regarding your contention of Christians becoming atheists, please provide some evidence of this. I'd like evidence of actual Christians doing so, not merely those whose religion or faith was based on their church, or their minister, or their families and friends. Those aren't Christians; they're part of a subset I've heard called 'Churchians'. (Faith in and relationship with the local church, rather than with the Lord Jesus Christ.) The scriptures plainly state that not everyone claiming to be a Christian is one.

I too am a christen turned atheist. In addition I would like to say to Christina that christianity and the church seems to redraw their boundaries every time that there is some scientific discovery. The most notable discovery was the discovery of DNA and the theory of evolution. I predict that a couple of decades from today when scientists has a good explanation of dark matter the religious lines will be altered again.

[twomers]

I predict that a couple of decades from today when scientists has a good explanation of dark matter the religious lines will be altered again.

And I predict that in a couple of decades from now scientists will change their opinions too! It's not as though science is the church's specialty. Nor is religion the forte of scientists. I bet we all will change our opinions on every matter when more information on it is discovered. Who here can really say they know enough or have training enough to argue intelligibly over matters which are not understood? Nobody. Come on. We thought the earth was flat. Everyone speculates. Nobody is infallible - neither scientists or the church. Everyone makes mistakes. "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone", as is said. Who knows. It is possible that many of our current theories are as flat as the earth of old.

[EnderX]

Actually, since ancient Greece it's been fairly well known that the earth was round; they'd (can't recall actual individual's name) actually come pretty close to the real size by applying math to the situation.

[quintoncoert]

The difference is that scientists are perfectly capable of admitting when they do not know. Which is the only base from which religion can attack it.

A scientist will say that he knows that biological organisms are build from proteins which is specified by DNA and that the DNA changes over time( evolution ) but he cannot with total certainty says how the DNA originally came into existence.

Since religion can not argue with the existance of evolution or DNA anymore it has changed its stance. Many of my friends ( all religious and trying to save my soul ) now suggests that perhaps God has created and now controls evolution via DNA. It is a pity that life originated so long before the first human since science is now in the spot where it can never say for sure how DNA first come about.

But dark matter is a different story since scientists have chance to find out what it is.

[joshSCH]

The difference is that scientists are perfectly capable of admitting when they do not know. Which is the only base from which religion can attack it.

A scientist will say that he knows that biological organisms are build from proteins which is specified by DNA and that the DNA changes over time( evolution ) but he cannot with total certainty says how the DNA originally came into existence.

Since religion can not argue with the existance of evolution or DNA anymore it has changed its stance. Many of my friends ( all religious and trying to save my soul ) now suggests that perhaps God has created and now controls evolution via DNA. It is a pity that life originated so long before the first human since science is now in the spot where it can never say for sure how DNA first come about.

But dark matter is a different story since scientists have chance to find out what it is.

I agree. I'm glad that we have another atheist on our team ;)

The church is constantly evolving to incorporate science, but, as you said, in the next 20-30 years, there will be many more atheist converts, and Christianity will soon fall. We may yet discover how the first DNA came about on this planet.. the limits to our technology will advance, and we will hopefully be able to say with certainty how life began.

[EnderX]

Since you're pulling toward that topic again, have you had a chance to track down those books yet?

[joshSCH]

... not yet. I've been a bit busy, but I'll run by the local library today after work.

[christina>you]

in the next 20-30 years, there will be many more atheist converts, and Christianity will soon fall.

I don't think so.

[christina>you]

I predict that a couple of decades from today when scientists has a good explanation of dark matter the religious lines will be altered again.

Well it's not like all of Christianity believes this. It was just a sermon of faith that my pastor preached on.

[Serunson]

this is turning into the god thread again! stop immediately!

lets get back to some physics!