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>Whats the best way to discipline a child?
You make it sound like a good spanking counts as abuse. It doesn't, except in the minds of loony conservatives.

Conservatives?

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Point.
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>Are you being serious? Child abuse??
If one can successfully argue that forcing your beliefs on your children may be damaging, it's easy to associate that action with child abuse.

I've never really known someone that has forced their children into religion. In rare cases, I've seen that happen to PKs (Preacher's Kids)... but when that does occur, the children just choose to rebel.

However, to what The Dude posted... I don't think calling it "child abuse" is appropriate.

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I agree
i never posted it..i just gave him a bad rep because i didn't like the tone of his post. You have no other work rather than posting games and looking at peoples rep's. Get a life.. LOSER!
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>I've never really known someone that has forced their children into religion. In rare cases, I've seen that happen to PKs (Preacher's Kids)... but when that does occur, the children just choose to rebel.

A brainwashed person needs no convincing.

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A brainwashed person needs no convincing.

No argument.

What if the brainwasher/indoctrinator is something/someone you pay for (against your wishes), but its/his aim is contrary to your own beliefs and values?

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>I've never really known someone that has forced their children into religion.
Saturating their life with a religion when they don't know better is the same as forcing them into it. I recall being told to go to church, pray before every meal and before bed every night, amongst an otherwise awkward expectation that I should be religious if I want to be a good person.

I feel that it was because I was surrounded by religion from such a young age that I had so much difficulty coming to terms with my beliefs, and why to this day I feel uncomfortable around a lot of my family. And I still wouldn't say that my family is exceptionally devout. Probably less so than many church going families.

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>What if the brainwasher/indoctrinator is something/someone you pay for (against your wishes), but its/his aim is contrary to your own beliefs and values?

When your three years old, you don't have many values. This is why the process of indoctrination must began at an early age, in which the mind is fertile.

It is saddening that religion inhibits the progress of science and the well being of all. By preaching absolutism and fundementalism, many people defy logic and common sense. This reminds me of George Orwell's book 1984. In the book the ability to doublethink is considered the highest virtue. Can people not realize that the squelching dictatorship in the book is actually present in most houses in the world? Yet when presented with data, such that intelligence is inversely related on how religious your are, they deny the data with unfalsifiable claims?

For a more complete view of religion, I recommend that you read Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion

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Saturating their life with a religion when they don't know better is the same as forcing them into it. I recall being told to go to church, pray before every meal and before bed every night, amongst an otherwise awkward expectation that I should be religious if I want to be a good person.

I feel that it was because I was surrounded by religion from such a young age that I had so much difficulty coming to terms with my beliefs, and why to this day I feel uncomfortable around a lot of my family. And I still wouldn't say that my family is exceptionally devout. Probably less so than many church going families.

hmm.. Yes, I can relate somewhat to that.. What was your family's response to your refusal of their religion? I can imagine that it would be a bit awkward at Family Reunions ;)

When your three years old, you don't have many values. This is why the process of indoctrination must began at an early age, in which the mind is fertile.

It is saddening that religion inhibits the progress of science and the well being of all. By preaching absolutism and fundementalism, many people defy logic and common sense. This reminds me of George Orwell's book 1984. In the book the ability to doublethink is considered the highest virtue. Can people not realize that the squelching dictatorship in the book is actually present in most houses in the world? Yet when presented with data, such that intelligence is inversely related on how religious your are, they deny the data with unfalsifiable claims?

For a more complete view of religion, I recommend that you read Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion

Ah, I love the references to Orwell's book :) Sadly, I have not read any of Dawkins yet..

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>I've never really known someone that has forced their children into religion.
Saturating their life with a religion when they don't know better is the same as forcing them into it. I recall being told to go to church, pray before every meal and before bed every night, amongst an otherwise awkward expectation that I should be religious if I want to be a good person.

But would you really call that child abuse? No way. I believe the complete opposite.

When parents raise up their children to believe in certain values and higher standards, they become better individuals altogether. Christianity doesn't just teach us to pray or go to church... it teaches us to be kind, patient, loving, faithful, gentle, joyful, and maintain self-control. (Galatians 5:22-23)

As a child, I adored going to church camps, retreats, bible studies, and VBS. I never felt like I was forced because I had so much fun when I went. There were games, food, fellowship with other kids, and just good fun.

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>But would you really call that child abuse? No way. I believe the complete opposite.
Not everyone has the same beliefs, genius. Why do you think I went to the trouble of explaining to you the perspective that your Christian indoctrinated mind obviously can't fathom?

>What was your family's response to your refusal of their religion?
I never told them. :$

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I really don't see how raising children could be called child abuse. Some people here seem to have an irrational opposition to religion. Athiests and agnostics tend to behave just as nonsensically as religious people, when it comes to day-to-day life. Plus, they get all uppity when it comes to theological questions.

Personally, I felt like I was forced to go to Sunday school, because I was. I did not see the point of wearing funny shoes on Sunday mornings.

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Agreed. Plus your funny shoes would have matched your funny face. Snap.
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>What was your family's response to your refusal of their religion?
I never told them. :$

haha.. Well, hell.. guess that will be me in 10 years too.

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Athiests and agnostics tend to behave just as nonsensically as religious people, when it comes to day-to-day life. Plus, they get all uppity when it comes to theological questions.

Personally, I felt like I was forced to go to Sunday school, because I was. I did not see the point of wearing funny shoes on Sunday mornings.

"Atheists" :-/

I disagree.. some atheists may behave like that, but most simply don't give a sh**. Most don't get 'uppity' when it comes to theological questions either..

Not only the shoes, but waking up so frikn early on Sunday too..:(

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>But would you really call that child abuse? No way. I believe the complete opposite.
Not everyone has the same beliefs, genius. Why do you think I went to the trouble of explaining to you the perspective that your Christian indoctrinated mind obviously can't fathom?

What is wrong with you?

[edit]: I don't understand why you always think I'm less intelligent than you. Even if it is true, could you try to refrain from this immaturity? -- Your comment didn't even answer my question.

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>I really don't see how raising children could be called child abuse.
Why not? If your way of raising children doesn't fit with someone else's way, it's pretty easy to see them putting a negative spin on it. I wouldn't call teaching your child about a single religion "child abuse", but I think that they could benefit more from a balanced education.

>Some people here seem to have an irrational opposition to religion.
And some people here seem to have an irrational opposition to any alternative perspectives. ;)

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Plus, they get all uppity when it comes to theological questions.

That depends entirely on the question, however it can be difficult to have a serious conversation about something you find to be utter nonsense.

I long ago learned that debating anything of a religious nature is futile and only leads to resentment on both sides. Neither side is going to convince or "win over" the other. Discussion is perfectly possible, but as soon as one party tries to disavow the validity of the other viewpoint and press their own as the only correct one the discussion is essentially moot.

If you wish to make generalities about atheists, then the best fitting is perhaps that they become exceedingly irritated when religious people take it upon themselves to try to foist their belief system upon others. Most atheists that I have ever been around, including myself, do not make it a mission to convert others to atheism and seldom really talk about it much.

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I long ago learned that debating anything of a religious nature is futile and only leads to resentment on both sides. Neither side is going to convince or "win over" the other. Discussion is perfectly possible, but as soon as one party tries to disavow the validity of the other viewpoint and press their own as the only correct one the discussion is essentially moot.

Yea, thats what I've come to realize.

If you wish to make generalities about atheists, then the best fitting is perhaps that they become exceedingly irritated when religious people take it upon themselves to try to foist their belief system upon others. Most atheists that I have ever been around, including myself, do not make it a mission to convert others to atheism and seldom really talk about it much.

Most Atheists don't really give a damn.. You try to debate religion with them, and they're just like hm, okay. Whatever.

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Most Atheists don't really give a damn.. You try to debate religion with them, and they're just like hm, okay. Whatever.

Congratulations, then. You're special.

Perhaps it's just a matter of the medium, but I find that most of the known atheists I've run across actually will tend to argue religion. (Argue, not necessarily debate.) However, I've only known one person I know to be an atheist in that nice little bubble we call 'reality'. Most of the confirmed atheists I've met (such as you, Josh), I've met via the Internet. As a result, I suspect it's the 'not quite real' nature of 'net contact that leads to the exchanges I've experienced. Either that or I just have a weird tendancy to only run into the vehement ones.

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Perhaps it's just a matter of the medium, but I find that most of the known atheists I've run across actually will tend to argue religion. (Argue, not necessarily debate.) However, I've only known one person I know to be an atheist in that nice little bubble we call 'reality'. Most of the confirmed atheists I've met (such as you, Josh), I've met via the Internet. As a result, I suspect it's the 'not quite real' nature of 'net contact that leads to the exchanges I've experienced. Either that or I just have a weird tendancy to only run into the vehement ones.

Hmm.. Well yea, I'm a bit different from most of the atheists that I know. Perhaps its because I'm young, and think that I can easily persuade people with science and logic.. however, I have found this method to be inapplicable in most situations..

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Hmm.. Well yea, I'm a bit different from most of the atheists that I know. Perhaps its because I'm young, and think that I can easily persuade people with science and logic.. however, I have found this method to be inapplicable in most situations..

Yeah, you will give up on that eventually - after all the scars from beating your head against the wall grow calloused and faded :)

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>and think that I can easily persuade people with science and logic.
Many people can't be convinced by logic unless they're already half way to believing what you're trying to convince them of. If someone has a strong opinion, it's impossible to change their mind with logic. But it doesn't mean you can't have fun with them. :) Here is a recent example that I've been enjoying.

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b/c I'm nice :)
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>If someone has a strong opinion, it's impossible to change their mind with logic.

I agree with you in regards that when dealing with normal people, logic and science rarely are effective. What is usaully effective is raising peoples' misplaced emotions, that always works. But with scientists and other academics and highly intelligent people I do not believe this is the case. For example in Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion he briefly mentioned a scientist who for 15 years did not believe in Golgi Bodies. This all changed when a scientist delivered a presentation, essentially proving, beyond reasonable doubt, the existence of Golgi Bodies. After the presentation he stood up and said "I've been wrong for 15 years." Did he have a dogmatic and illogical opposition to Golgi Bodies? Was he indoctrinated at birth to believe in Golgi Bodies? No, he just felt that the evidence was not there. And when it was presented to him, he immediately changed his mind. There is nothing wrong with admitting you were wrong. This Richard Dawkins said "brought tears to his eyes."

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>If someone has a strong opinion, it's impossible to change their mind with logic.

I agree with you in regards that when dealing with normal people, logic and science rarely are effective. What is usaully effective is raising peoples' misplaced emotions, that always works. But with scientists and other academics and highly intelligent people I do not believe this is the case. For example in Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion he briefly mentioned a scientist who for 15 years did not believe in Golgi Bodies. This all changed when a scientist delivered a presentation, essentially proving, beyond reasonable doubt, the existence of Golgi Bodies. After the presentation he stood up and said "I've been wrong for 15 years." Did he have a dogmatic and illogical opposition to Golgi Bodies? Was he indoctrinated at birth to believe in Golgi Bodies? No, he just felt that the evidence was not there. And when it was presented to him, he immediately changed his mind. There is nothing wrong with admitting you were wrong. This Richard Dawkins said "brought tears to his eyes."

I would agree. I could accept the existence of (a) God if there was conclusive evidence of such. As it stands, I've yet to find any. I do not count a collection of edited, translated, and subscripted writings of long dead men as compelling evidence at this point in time.
(No, this is not an invitation to discuss "what is evidence?", as it's a tired topic that I will not even bother to get into anymore).

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>If someone has a strong opinion, it's impossible to change their mind with logic.

I agree with you in regards that when dealing with normal people, logic and science rarely are effective. What is usaully effective is raising peoples' misplaced emotions, that always works. But with scientists and other academics and highly intelligent people I do not believe this is the case. For example in Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion he briefly mentioned a scientist who for 15 years did not believe in Golgi Bodies. This all changed when a scientist delivered a presentation, essentially proving, beyond reasonable doubt, the existence of Golgi Bodies. After the presentation he stood up and said "I've been wrong for 15 years." Did he have a dogmatic and illogical opposition to Golgi Bodies? Was he indoctrinated at birth to believe in Golgi Bodies? No, he just felt that the evidence was not there. And when it was presented to him, he immediately changed his mind. There is nothing wrong with admitting you were wrong. This Richard Dawkins said "brought tears to his eyes."

Yes; however, many people have problems admitting when they are wrong.. Also, this example of 'Golgi Bodies' is not an adequate example.. Yes, the doctor probably felt strongly that they did not exist.. but, compared to religion this is nothing. Religion motivates people physically and emotionally.. it would be difficult for someone who had spent years believing and practicing a certain faith to revoke this faith, and admit that he/she was wrong.

I would agree. I could accept the existence of (a) God if there was conclusive evidence of such. As it stands, I've yet to find any. I do not count a collection of edited, translated, and subscripted writings of long dead men as compelling evidence at this point in time.
(No, this is not an invitation to discuss "what is evidence?", as it's a tired topic that I will not even bother to get into anymore).

Same here.. if such evidence existed, I would have no problem admitting that I was wrong. However, no such evidence exists.. and I am certain that no evidence will ever be found.. I have an open mind though.

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because I apparently have to spread rep to neg rep to rashakil. Oh and thanks for the rep (also a good post)
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>Yes; however, many people have problems admitting when they are wrong.. Also, this example of 'Golgi Bodies' is not an adequate example.. Yes, the doctor probably felt strongly that they did not exist.. but, compared to religion this is nothing. Religion motivates people physically and emotionally.. it would be difficult for someone who had spent years believing and practicing a certain faith to revoke this faith, and admit that he/she was wrong.

Thats the point, it is difficult for a brainwashed person to renounce something the have been taught to believe their entire life. I find it funny that some of these people actually think they are thinking logically.

btw, we are not talking about the existance of god. We are talking about whether religion is harmful/brainwashing.

oh and ezzaral welcome to the club of heathens!

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Thats the point, it is difficult for a brainwashed person to renounce something the have been taught to believe their entire life. I find it funny that some of these people actually think they are thinking logically.

They don't know any better.. They're brainwashed ;)

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>They don't know any better.. They're brainwashed

that is why some of the most intelligent people are those who have renounced their faith.

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Chill out and stop hating humanity. The human species evolved this way; deal with it.

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...And we are here to stay as long as we can.
Stop giving me bad rep for no reason,,
stop giving me bad rep. Oh and your 30 second theory is stupid
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>Chill out and stop hating humanity. The human species evolved this way; deal with it.

not according to religious people ;-)

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Rashakil=asshole
hehe Clever!
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