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what the hell rashakil? Stop giving me negative rep!

You're so adorable <3 <3 <3

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your off topic. Take your rantings some where else
That's kinda gay.. Here's #4 since you asked for it in IRC
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that is why some of the most intelligent people are those who have renounced their faith.

Could we please just stop this whole bashing religions thing now? Everyone understands you're an atheist and you think that whoever believes in a religion is uneducated. Can we move on?

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>Could we please just stop this whole bashing religions thing now? Everyone understands you're an atheist and you think that whoever believes in a religion is uneducated. Can we move on?

how about you refute the multiple studies done showing that intelligence is inversely related with religion

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how about you refute the multiple studies done showing that intelligence is inversely related with religion

Ok.

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here is some rep (I need to neg rep rashakil)
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how about you refute the multiple studies done showing that intelligence is inversely related with religion

Being intelligent makes somebody a good person? Er no, intelligence is very unimportant when it comes to evaluating the goodness of a human being.

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>I've never really known someone that has forced their children into religion.
Saturating their life with a religion when they don't know better is the same as forcing them into it. I recall being told to go to church, pray before every meal and before bed every night, amongst an otherwise awkward expectation that I should be religious if I want to be a good person.

Like it or not, you'd probably prefer to choose whatever "brainwashing/indoctrination" you provide to your own child(ren). Whether or not one is aware of doing it, it happens nonetheless.

What works for the goose may not work for the gander, but that means neither is inferior or worthy of derision.

>What if the brainwasher/indoctrinator is something/someone you pay for (against your wishes), but its/his aim is contrary to your own beliefs and values?

When your three years old, you don't have many values. This is why the process of indoctrination must began at an early age, in which the mind is fertile.

Up to that age, I've been working on basic behavior: please and thank-you, asking not demanding, thinking of others, learning the alphabet, exercises in obedience (unless you think it's okay for a 2-year-old to play naked in the street), etc. If you're not teaching -- i.e. "indoctrinating" -- you are raising your precious ones to be idiots.

>But would you really call that child abuse? No way. I believe the complete opposite.
Not everyone has the same beliefs, genius. Why do you think I went to the trouble of explaining to you the perspective that your Christian indoctrinated mind obviously can't fathom?

It's a bit of a stretch, but it is possible to point all your criticisms of christina in your direction. Such an exercise would be canned and pointless, much like I view this "attack the messenger" line of comments.

>I really don't see how raising children could be called child abuse.
Why not? If your way of raising children doesn't fit with someone else's way, it's pretty easy to see them putting a negative spin on it. I wouldn't call teaching your child about a single religion "child abuse", but I think that they could benefit more from a balanced education.

Who says they won't get that anyway? If they seek it it is there.

>Some people here seem to have an irrational opposition to religion.
And some people here seem to have an irrational opposition to any alternative perspectives. ;)

Possibly some are singled out?

Thats the point, it is difficult for a brainwashed person to renounce something the have been taught to believe their entire life.

Essentially, all of us have been "brainwashed". Everyone of us here included. Our thoughts were not formed in our DNA, they came about from our experiences. Opinions vary.

>Could we please just stop this whole bashing religions thing now? Everyone understands you're an atheist and you think that whoever believes in a religion is uneducated. Can we move on?

When atheists quit evangelizing, and folks who don't care for Christianity stop criticizing them for their beliefs -- i.e., when folks stop telling others that just because it doesn't work for me and it works for you that you are stupid, then I think it has a chance.

how about you refute the multiple studies done showing that intelligence is inversely related with religion

...But as long as you interject inane crap into the argument, it will be refuted.

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May I comment? Amen.
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>...But as long as you interject inane crap into the argument, it will be refuted.

Then refute it.

>If you're not teaching -- i.e. "indoctrinating" -- you are raising your precious ones to be idiots.

Teaching them to question is hardly indoctrination. (and please don't make some weak argument that you are indoctrinating them to question)

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>...But as long as you interject inane crap into the argument, it will be refuted.

Then refute it.

I'm feeling lazy. Create a list of "smart" people that disavow divine providence, their results upon society, philosophy, etc. -- the betterment of mankind. If you are truly up to the exercise, create a similar list of those who acknowledged divinity and similar results.

Just don't pull that "prove a negative" crap.

>If you're not teaching -- i.e. "indoctrinating" -- you are raising your precious ones to be idiots.

Teaching them to question is hardly indoctrination. (and please don't make some weak argument that you are indoctrinating them to question)

How is teaching not indoctrinating?

By the way, questioning is fundamental to both sides.

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>how about you refute the multiple studies done showing that intelligence is inversely related with religion

Although that may be true -- it also might indicate those people are too smart for their own good. High intelligence doesn't mean there is no God, it just means such people are too narcissistic and incapable of understanding anything but their own self-awareness. I'd say such people are so smart that they don't recognize commen sense if it hit them in the head.

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Common sense and intelligence don't always share a negative correlation.. However, what Sturm says is true.. Intelligence and Atheism are positively correlated. I remember posting a link to a really good, unbiased website.. I have no clue where though as it seems so many threads transform into religious debates.. :-/

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No, many sources were included in that website.
Scientific American, September 1999
Nature, and many more.

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No, many sources were included in that website.
Scientific American, September 1999
Nature, and many more.

Sadly, I find the articles unlinked and unquoted. I only tried a couple, so I may have erred.

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I found 1 link, and following the quotes to be a difficult journey.

But then I'm being lazy.

I ask for proof and folks follow with link after link of personal dramatization -- much like some characterize the Bible that they choose to originally criticise.

Is there a final turtle?

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Yes.. I do understand the link, thanks ;)

I've read up on cosmology, and the ultimate fate of the universe.. There is a final turtle, as I do not believe there are multiple universes or infinite regression.. Nothing is truly infinite :)

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Yes.. I do understand the link, thanks ;)

I've read up on cosmology, and the ultimate fate of the universe.. There is a final turtle, as I do not believe there are multiple universes or infinite regression.. Nothing is truly infinite :)

And that shall be your undoing. Sorry.

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Nothing is truly infinite :)

Oh, you mean like a circle is not an infinite loop? Maybe space is like a circle too, but don't quote me on that because I really have no idea whether it is or isn't.

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Is there a final turtle?

<bizzare_interjection="Faulty logic in the original premise.">

The first statement was that everything was resting on a tortoise, a land-dwelling creature which requires a solid substance underneath to support it. In this case, yes, there would have to be something underneath. (Possible tautology here?)

End result: Can't be a final tortoise.

However, when you swap the creature at issue off from a tortoise to a turtle, as seems to be the case in most of those arguments, then this issue doesn't hold. A turtle large enough to match the 'tortoise' argument would have to be a sea turtle. It'd have to be scaled up to hold the world, but so would the tortoise.

It would be possible to have a final turtle. Sea turtles don't require a constant surface under them. Sea turtles can swim.

</bizzare_interjection>

Yes, I know this has nothing to do with the actual issue at hand. I just felt like tossing it out.

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Oh, you mean like a circle is not an infinite loop? Maybe space is like a circle too, but don't quote me on that because I really have no idea whether it is or isn't.

Eh, well.. We haven't ever encountered something with infinite mass, infinite energy, infinite time (immortal), etc. Infinity is just a mathematical concept used to perform certain calculations.. it is quite useful; however, I don't think it is applicable in the case of the universe..

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Eh, well.. We haven't ever encountered something with infinite mass, infinite energy, infinite time (immortal), etc. Infinity is just a mathematical concept used to perform certain calculations.. it is quite useful; however, I don't think it is applicable in the case of the universe..

What about something extra-universal then?

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Eh, well.. We haven't ever encountered something with infinite mass, infinite energy, infinite time (immortal), etc. Infinity is just a mathematical concept used to perform certain calculations.. it is quite useful; however, I don't think it is applicable in the case of the universe..

Just curious, but why do you think that it is not applicable to the universe? We've certainly not managed to glimpse or detect the whole of it, so I would assume it unknowable at this point in time.

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If not than what existed before the universe? Nothingness? If so, it certainly exists outside the universe.

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Nothingness wouldn't be something. All I'm saying is that I don't agree with the multiverse or oscillatory Universe theories.. The finite theory seems to be the most logical. However, we don't have enough evidence to prove that any of them are true..

It is unknown what existed before the Universe, if anything at all.. It is very unclear how it all began. The beginning is the only hole that science has yet to fill. It's very strange how the entire Universe could have begun from seemingly nothing..

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