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So you are under the assumption that there is someone who is not corrupt? Money makes the world go round, influence can get you anything, sometimes its cheap, sometimes expensive, you just have to name the right price.

People sell their souls for money, selling their responsibility towards their country won't be that tough...

I'm not saying the CIA can't become corrupt.. only that b/c they are so secretive, the American citizens would not even know if any CIA members did anything against the law. Because of this secrecy, it is pointless to suggest their corruptness... we can only hope that they are still on our side ;)

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I'm not saying the CIA can't become corrupt.. only that b/c they are so secretive, the American citizens would not even know if any CIA members did anything against the law. Because of this secrecy, it is pointless to suggest their corruptness... we can only hope that they are still on our side ;)

It is far from pointless to question things done in secret and merely hoping they are doing the right thing does little to ensure it.

I would just encourage you to think about the contradictory nature of the two positions you espoused. They cannot work together. Oversight and accountability are inherently necessary to preserve the freedoms you value.

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It is impossible for us to do anything about the CIA, though. They are a secret organization run by the government. So long as the government is kept in check, all of its programs should follow into place as well.

I basically just believe the government should be constantly checked by the people to ensure that no civil liberties are lost. The CIA, however, is trying to ensure the American citizens are not harmed by other nations. I am a strong believer of allowing the military (including the CIA, NSA, etc.) to do whatever necessary in order to ensure our safety. If the military is torturing other people b/c they believe those people may be a threat to national security then so be it. I don't find anything wrong with that at all (unless the people being tortured are American citizens). The CIA should be allowed to do whatever they want to accomplish their goal (within a limited boundary, of course).

I don't think I am explaining my views efficiently.. they are not contradictory. I just view the CIA and government operating in different realms of limitation.

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Well i can't spell first off :P
And most smokers are genuine nice people like yourself, who do care for others around them, but a proportion of smokers are just plane idiots who don't give a care in the world, and when they puff the smoke out, it goes right into your face. It's those sort of people that i just want to punch in the face quite honestly! And i'm not violent!

I understand that and figured that you did as well. I posted to call attention to the overly broad generalization.

Personally, I will not smoke in the home or car of a non-smoker even when they tell me it's fine to do so. I decline to sit in the smoking section of a restaurant when I am with non-smokers. I can wait until I am outside. I don't think this makes me special or a saint - I think it's just consideration of those around me.

Lack of consideration is a human trait - not a side effect of smoking.

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It is impossible for us to do anything about the CIA, though. They are a secret organization run by the government. So long as the government is kept in check, all of its programs should follow into place as well.

I basically just believe the government should be constantly checked by the people to ensure that no civil liberties are lost. The CIA, however, is trying to ensure the American citizens are not harmed by other nations. I am a strong believer of allowing the military (including the CIA, NSA, etc.) to do whatever necessary in order to ensure our safety. If the military is torturing other people b/c they believe those people may be a threat to national security then so be it. I don't find anything wrong with that at all (unless the people being tortured are American citizens). The CIA should be allowed to do whatever they want to accomplish their goal (within a limited boundary, of course).

I don't think I am explaining my views efficiently.. they are not contradictory. I just view the CIA and government operating in different realms of limitation.

The people picked up off the streets, held without charges for long periods of time, and interrogated mercilessly when they have done nothing wrong whatsoever may tend to disagree with you.

I am not saying the agencies should be prevented from making investigations effectively. I am saying that giving them a blank check do "do whatever the hell they want" in the name of national security is exactly what leads to fascism. The current administration is up to its eyeballs in allegations of misuse of power in the last several years and most all of it flows from the demagogic mantra of "we are doing this to protect you".

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The people picked up off the streets, held without charges for long periods of time, and interrogated mercilessly when they have done nothing wrong whatsoever may tend to disagree with you.

I am not saying the agencies should be prevented from making investigations effectively. I am saying that giving them a blank check do "do whatever the hell they want" in the name of national security is exactly what leads to fascism. The current administration is up to its eyeballs in allegations of misuse of power in the last several years and most all of it flows from the demagogic mantra of "we are doing this to protect you".

But it's war! Look at Iraq, and the war on terror.. we have not done as well as we thought. Why? Mostly because the damn media is there defiling the troops. They always portray everything in a negative light. If we were to send the media away, and let the military handle things their way.. who knows- maybe the war would be over tomorrow. They could torture, kill, destroy anything they wanted.. eventually we would destroy the terrorist networks.

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>Do you even realize why I had made that statement in my previous post? If no, then you better read the previous posts before asking such obvious questions.

Maybe the original poster (sk8?) finds smoking on the same "rudeness" level as masturbating. and yes i did read it.

Heyyy, someone got it. Thanks. And I wasn't trying to be offensive if anyone took it that way.

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But it's war! Look at Iraq, and the war on terror.. we have not done as well as we though. Why? Mostly because the damn media is there defiling the troops. They always portray everything in a negative light. If we were to send the media away, and let the military handle things their way.. who knows- maybe the war would be over tomorrow. They could torture, kill, destroy anything they wanted.. eventually we would destroy the terrorist networks.

Hook, line, and sinker.

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Personally, I think the CIA does do things that violate our liberties and we even know about it. We just don't know it is the CIA's doing. For example I am one of those crazy theorists that thinks the CIA was involved in the assassination of John F. Kennedy (and likely Robert F. Kennedy as well).

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But it's war! Look at Iraq, and the war on terror.. we have not done as well as we thought. Why?

IMHO the reason were doing crap is as you are too heavy handed

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Personally, I think the CIA does do things that violate our liberties and we even know about it. We just don't know it is the CIA's doing. For example I am one of those crazy theorists that thinks the CIA was involved in the assassination of John F. Kennedy (and likely Robert F. Kennedy as well).

mm hm:

I'm not saying the CIA can't become corrupt.. only that b/c they are so secretive, the American citizens would not even know if any CIA members did anything against the law. Because of this secrecy, it is pointless to suggest their corruptness... we can only hope that they are still on our side ;)

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The thing is, his assassination wasn't necessary to protect the citizens. It was necessary for the CIA to remain a part of the in existence as part of the bureaucracy.

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hmm.. I don't think I have ever heard of that conspiracy. What would be the purpose for the CIA to assassinate our own president? And what about the secret service? You think they were in on it too?

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I did click on the smoking thread, didin't I? :p

Just because the CIA doesen't make laws does not mean they are not corrupt or that they have the best interest of Americans in mind. IMO, they have done a pretty crappy job. They are wrong on almost everything.

Back to smoking, the Cleveland Clinic is no longer hiring smokers:
http://www.dispatch.com/dispatch/content/local_news/stories/2007/06/28/clinic_smokers.html?jrl=268508&rfr=nwsl&clk=131315

Really? I haven't looked at the link yet, but my mom works at the Cleveland Clinic and she smokes.

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My mom works there too. According to the article current employees are fine, it just applies to new employees.

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And most smokers are genuine nice people like yourself, who do care for others around them, but a proportion of smokers are just plane idiots who don't give a care in the world, and when they puff the smoke out, it goes right into your face. It's those sort of people that i just want to punch in the face quite honestly! And i'm not violent!

Hmm, so it seems like there are lotsa "nice" smokers around.. :).
Just the same way I tried saying that even though there are times when smokers are smoking in their smoking corners, and still ppl have to make faces. It's those faces I would also like to break, no that I'm violent by nature.. :)

Discrimination, probably, but more importantly the government is trying to force you to stop smoking. The same thing if happening here in USA. And it is a little interesting that governments would force the closure of legitimate industry and put thousands of people out of work.

When a wife can't make a smoker quit, what chance a govt. got ?!

>>Medically, it's not.
So smoking is not a self-provoked death?
No

>Remember I have not even mentioned places like Hospitals and Schools
I hope you don't serioudly consider smoking at such places.
No. But none the less these are places where smoking isn't allowed.
>It's pure and simple discrimination !
That's a two way street.
That's what I meant when I said it's discrimination!

>The least you can do is allow us to smoke in the smoking areas of a restaurant in peace.
You know what? Maybe I like to masturbate. And rather than do that only on private property the least you can do is allow me to do it in a restaurant in peace.
Sure, by all means, as long as you have something similar to smoking area I have no issues. May be after that you'll come back cribbing they frown and they don't let you do it in schools and hospitals. :D

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There's a reason you can't smoke in schools and hospitals. Can you guess why? And I'd love for you to explain to me how smoking is not a self-provoked death? It is the number one preventable cause of death in the United States. And you obiously didn't understand my analogy, so let's not even continue with it.

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Schools:
Same reasons you've been throwing out for restaurants, somehow given magically more emphasis because it's children who're being 'targetted' by the smoke.

Hospitals:
Which reason do you want? The 'secondhand smoke veddy bad fol patient' one? Or the one about how the smoke might somehow damage the delicate machinery of someone's life support (or the pre-lifesupport vital sign readers)? Or how about the one where it's a really bad idea to keep any kind of open heat source near compressed oxygen or highly-oxygenated atmospheres? Which of those did you want?

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> There's a reason you can't smoke in schools and hospitals. Can you guess why?
Comparing the effects of smoke on people who are fighting against death and normal people doesn't make sense. Second hand smoking is bad, but so is the smoke from vehicles, the minute spores floating, the dirt, the pollen grains etc.

And BTW, its not only smoking but also any other thing which would make the patients uncomfortable is not allowed in hospitals, so picking out smoking from all the things which are not allowed would be a moot point.

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> There's a reason you can't smoke in schools and hospitals. Can you guess why?
Comparing the effects of smoke on people who are fighting against death and normal people doesn't make sense. Second hand smoking is bad, but so is the smoke from vehicles, the minute spores floating, the dirt, the pollen grains etc.

And BTW, its not only smoking but also any other thing which would make the patients uncomfortable is not allowed in hospitals, so picking out smoking from all the things which are not allowed would be a moot point.

Smoking is easy to prohibit in schools. Other things are not. Smoke from vehicles: they usually don't operate within the school. Minute spores floating: nothing you can do. Dirt: Keep the classroom clean. Pollen grains: Close the window. Plenty of reasons were already given for why smoking isn't allowed in a hospital.

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Well lets just settle on 1 thing if we can,
Smoking is bad for you.
If anything comes out of this thread, i want it to be that.

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> Smoking is bad for you.
Smoking is good for you, just like chocolate and wine. And just like chocolate and wine, smoking in excess is bad for you.

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you're sooo right... :D
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