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Last Post by Dave Sinkula
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I know someone who went to Wembley in the nosebleed seats. Enjoyed it.

I saw all of 20 mins while on my dinner break. Always take the weather with you...

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You have got to be kidding me?It's a concert held by Al Gore all around the world to help the earth.Then again.....Livestock '69 wasn't that much of a change.

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Well, you have to wonder how much different things would have been these past 7 years if the courts hadn't appointed Bush in the 2000 election. Gore won the popular vote.

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Why wonder how things would be different? We have no clue what Gore would have done. No use in questioning the past like that.. nothing can be done.

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Well, you have to wonder how much different things would have been these past 7 years if the courts hadn't appointed Bush in the 2000 election. Gore won the popular vote.

Popular vote has never been used to determine an election in this country.

As far as the live earth thing goes, Al Gore is nothing but a hypocrite. Just look at the motorcade he travels around in.

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Popular vote has never been used to determine an election in this country.

Yes, I am aware of that fact, thank you. We still cling to an out-dated, gerrymandered electoral college system. Gore nearly won in that system as well and the circus that ensued in Florida demonstrates just how screwed up our election process can become. At the very least, electoral votes should remain intact and not be all thrown in to the majority winner of the state, as most still do. That is blatantly ignoring the voting will of the population.

I think Bush's demagogic abuse of power is criminal and our nation will pay for it for a long time to come. Obviously we have no way to know how Gore would have fared overall, but I doubt that he would have gotten us to this sorry state of national standing that Bush and his cronys have wrought.

Also, motorcade or none, at least Gore is bringing attention to some areas of environmental and energy responsibility that have been naively ignored for decades. I certainly won't defend him as a role model for his own message and the man with all the answers, but his work does have value in that at least people are paying attention.

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Yes, I agree the electoral college should definitely be changed. It truly tends to make people's votes not count at all unless they live in a 'close call' state. For example, it wouldn't matter if all the Texan democrats voted or not, Texas would remain dark red ;)

Nearly every President has expanded the power of the executive during times of war..

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Nearly every President has expanded the power of the executive during times of war..

Of course - fear, nationalism, and guilt are a great platform from which to shove whatever you want down the populace's collective throat.

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Yes, I am aware of that fact, thank you. We still cling to an out-dated, gerrymandered electoral college system. Gore nearly won in that system as well and the circus that ensued in Florida demonstrates just how screwed up our election process can become. At the very least, electoral votes should remain intact and not be all thrown in to the majority winner of the state, as most still do. That is blatantly ignoring the voting will of the population.

Although I tried to take this stance once, I realized there is a reason for the current system.

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Although I tried to take this stance once, I realized there is a reason for the current system.

I agree there are reasons, but I still believe that proportional vote distribution of the electors would be preferable to the all-in system.

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Think of all the wasted crap that came from that concert, electricity (burning coal), rubbish, water etc etc.

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Although I tried to take this stance once, I realized there is a reason for the current system.

Reasons for an electoral college? It was originally created to 'protect' the people by giving the real voting power to the elect. The creators of the electoral college did not believe that the common man was intelligent enough to choose a good leader, and thus, this system was put in place. I see no pros to this system.. other than the fact that it's an age old tradition of American democracy. However, there are many cons with this system. For one, the elect can vote for whomever they choose regardless of what the people say. Also, it only counts one vote from each state.. I'm all for just using the popular vote. Why the hell have some complex electoral college? However, if people want to keep the electoral college then at least tweak it a bit to make the democratic process more- well, democratic.

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Bush is just destroying the country.America was pretty stupid voting for him knowing his past business endeavors.

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I agree there are reasons, but I still believe that proportional vote distribution of the electors would be preferable to the all-in system.

I once considered the Maine-Nebraska method. If that was the case in 2000, the result was Bush 288, Gore 249.

The Proportional vote I think is horrible because of the handling of fractional electors. With it, I'd challenge any half dozen people here to try to produce the scenario, the set of rules that were used in the Wikipedia article that calls it Bush 263, Gore 269, Nader 6.

You can get the source data here.

Reasons for an electoral college? It was originally created to 'protect' the people by giving the real voting power to the elect. The creators of the electoral college did not believe that the common man was intelligent enough to choose a good leader, and thus, this system was put in place. I see no pros to this system.. other than the fact that it's an age old tradition of American democracy. However, there are many cons with this system. For one, the elect can vote for whomever they choose regardless of what the people say. Also, it only counts one vote from each state.. I'm all for just using the popular vote. Why the hell have some complex electoral college? However, if people want to keep the electoral college then at least tweak it a bit to make the democratic process more- well, democratic.

You Josh, should read the whole article. ;)

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I got tired of fudging the numbers in Excel, so I wrote a quick C program to do this (not the greatest code or anything).

My algorithm is this: whoever has the higher fractional electoral vote gets bumped up to the next whole number, then the next highest fractional electoral vote gets bumped to the next whole number, etc.

State           EV  Bush  Gore Nader   Bush  Gore Nader
Alaska           3  1.76  0.83  0.30     2     1    0
Illinois        22  9.37 12.01  0.48     9    12    1

For example, in Illinois the total of the trucated electoral votes is Bush 9, Gore 12, Nader 0, which is only 21 of 22 electoral votes; the the fractional electoral votes are Bush .37, Gore .01, Nader .48, so Nader gets bumped to 1 and now all 22 electoral votes are accounted for.

With Alaska in this example we start with Bush 1, Gore 0, Nader 0. The fractions are Bush .76, Gore .83, and Nader .30. So first Gore gets bumped to 1, but that only accounts for 2 of the 3 electoral votes. So a second time Bush's .76 is more than Nader's .48, so Bush goes to 2.

The end result in this case is then

State           EV  Bush  Gore Nader   Bush  Gore Nader
Total          538                     263   262   13

This is not a majority, so it would go to the House. Unless you meant to go with a plurality instead -- which in this case would be Bush.

And now I'm more unsure of what algorithm that Wikipedia article used.

Attachments
#include <stdio.h>

struct vote 
{
    const char   *state;
    unsigned int  EV;
    unsigned long total;
    unsigned long gore;
    unsigned long bush;
    unsigned long nader;
    unsigned long other;
};

void adjust(double *Bush, double *Gore, double *Nader, unsigned int total)
{
    struct candidate
    {
        int    ev;
        int    mod;
        double togo;
    } bush = {0}, gore = {0}, nader = {0};
    bush.ev  = *Bush;
    gore.ev  = *Gore;
    nader.ev = *Nader;
    while ( bush.ev + gore.ev + nader.ev < total )
    {
        bush.togo  = bush.ev + 1 - *Bush;
        gore.togo  = gore.ev + 1 - *Gore;
        nader.togo = nader.ev + 1 - *Nader;
        if ( !nader.mod && nader.togo < bush.togo && nader.togo < gore.togo )
        {
            *Nader = ++nader.ev;
            nader.mod = 1;
        }
        else if ( !gore.mod && gore.togo < bush.togo && gore.togo < nader.togo )
        {
            *Gore = ++gore.ev;
            gore.mod = 1;
        }
        else if ( !bush.mod && bush.togo < gore.togo && bush.togo < nader.togo )
        {
            *Bush = ++bush.ev;
            bush.mod = 1;
        }
    }
    *Bush  = bush.ev;
    *Gore  = gore.ev;
    *Nader = nader.ev;
}

void result(const struct vote *state, size_t size)
{
    double btotal = 0, gtotal = 0, ntotal = 0, total;
    printf("%-15s %2s %5s %5s %5s  %5s %5s %5s\n", "State", "EV", 
           "Bush", "Gore", "Nader", "Bush","Gore", "Nader");
    for ( ; size--; ++state )
    {
        double bush  = (double)state->EV * state->bush  / state->total;
        double gore  = (double)state->EV * state->gore  / state->total;
        double nader = (double)state->EV * state->nader / state->total;
        printf("%-15s %2u %5.2f %5.2f %5.2f  ", 
               state->state, state->EV, bush, gore, nader);
        adjust(&bush, &gore, &nader, state->EV);
        printf(" %3g   %3g   %2g\n", bush, gore, nader);
        btotal += bush;
        gtotal += gore;
        ntotal += nader;
    }
    total = btotal + gtotal + ntotal;
    printf("%-15s%3g %5s %5s %5s   %3g   %3g  %3g\n", "Total", total, 
           "", "", "", btotal, gtotal, ntotal);
}

const struct vote Vote[] =
{
    {"Alabama",9,1672551,695602,944409,18349,14191},
    {"Alaska",3,285560,79004,167398,28747,10411},
    {"Arizona",8,1534113,685341,781652,45645,21475},
    {"Arkansas",6,921781,422768,472940,13421,12652},
    {"California",54,10965856,5861203,4567429,418707,118517},
    {"Colorado",8,1741365,738227,883745,91434,27959},
    {"Connecticut",8,1459525,816015,561094,64452,17964},
    {"Delaware",3,327622,180068,137288,8307,1959},
    {"DC",3,201894,171923,18073,10576,1322},
    {"Florida",25,5963110,2912253,2912790,97488,40579},
    {"Georgia",13,2596804,1116230,1419720,13432,47422},
    {"Hawaii",4,367951,205286,137845,21623,3197},
    {"Idaho",4,501621,138637,336937,12292,13755},
    {"Illinois",22,4742123,2589026,2019421,103759,29917},
    {"Indiana",12,2199302,901980,1245836,18531,32955},
    {"Iowa",7,1315563,638517,634373,29374,13299},
    {"Kansas",6,1072216,399276,622332,36086,14522},
    {"Kentucky",8,1544187,638898,872492,23192,9605},
    {"Louisiana",9,1765656,792344,927871,20473,24968},
    {"Maine",4,651817,319951,286616,37127,8123},
    {"Maryland",10,2025480,1145782,813797,53768,12133},
    {"Massachusetts",12,2702984,1616487,878502,173564,34431},
    {"Michigan",18,4232711,2170418,1953139,84165,24989},
    {"Minnesota",10,2438685,1168266,1109659,126696,34064},
    {"Mississippi",7,994926,404964,573230,8126,8606},
    {"Missouri",11,2359892,1111138,1189924,38515,20315},
    {"Montana",3,410997,137126,240178,24437,9256},
    {"Nebraska",5,697019,231780,433862,24540,6837},
    {"Nevada",4,608970,279978,301575,15008,12409},
    {"New Hampshire",4,569081,266348,273559,22198,6976},
    {"New Jersey",15,3187226,1788850,1284173,94554,19649},
    {"New Mexico",5,598605,286783,286417,21251,4154},
    {"New York",33,6822668,4107907,2403374,244060,67327},
    {"North Carolina",14,2911262,1257692,1631163,0,22407},
    {"North Dakota",3,288267,95284,174852,9497,8634},
    {"Ohio",21,4705457,2186190,2351209,117857,50201},
    {"Oklahoma",8,1234229,474276,744337,0,15616},
    {"Oregon",7,1533968,720342,713577,77357,22692},
    {"Pennsylvania",23,4913119,2485967,2281127,103392,42633},
    {"Rhode Island",4,409112,249508,130555,25052,3997},
    {"South Carolina",8,1383777,566039,786426,20279,11033},
    {"South Dakota",3,316269,118804,190700,0,6765},
    {"Tennessee",11,2076181,981720,1061949,19781,12731},
    {"Texas",32,6407637,2433746,3799639,137994,36258},
    {"Utah",5,770754,203053,515096,35850,16755},
    {"Vermont",3,294308,149022,119775,20374,5137},
    {"Virginia",13,2739447,1217290,1437490,59398,25269},
    {"Washington",11,2488745,1247652,1108864,103002,29227},
    {"West Virginia",5,648124,295497,336475,10680,5472},
    {"Wisconsin",11,2598607,1242987,1237279,94070,24271},
    {"Wyoming",3,218351,60481,147947,4625,5298},
};

int main()
{
    result(Vote, sizeof Vote / sizeof *Vote);
    return 0;
}

/* my output
State           EV  Bush  Gore Nader   Bush  Gore Nader
Alabama          9  5.08  3.74  0.10     5     4    0
Alaska           3  1.76  0.83  0.30     2     1    0
Arizona          8  4.08  3.57  0.24     4     4    0
Arkansas         6  3.08  2.75  0.09     3     3    0
California      54 22.49 28.86  2.06    23    29    2
Colorado         8  4.06  3.39  0.42     4     3    1
Connecticut      8  3.08  4.47  0.35     3     5    0
Delaware         3  1.26  1.65  0.08     1     2    0
DC               3  0.27  2.55  0.16     0     3    0
Florida         25 12.21 12.21  0.41    12    12    1
Georgia         13  7.11  5.59  0.07     7     6    0
Hawaii           4  1.50  2.23  0.24     2     2    0
Idaho            4  2.69  1.11  0.10     3     1    0
Illinois        22  9.37 12.01  0.48     9    12    1
Indiana         12  6.80  4.92  0.10     7     5    0
Iowa             7  3.38  3.40  0.16     3     4    0
Kansas           6  3.48  2.23  0.20     4     2    0
Kentucky         8  4.52  3.31  0.12     5     3    0
Louisiana        9  4.73  4.04  0.10     5     4    0
Maine            4  1.76  1.96  0.23     2     2    0
Maryland        10  4.02  5.66  0.27     4     6    0
Massachusetts   12  3.90  7.18  0.77     4     7    1
Michigan        18  8.31  9.23  0.36     8     9    1
Minnesota       10  4.55  4.79  0.52     5     5    0
Mississippi      7  4.03  2.85  0.06     4     3    0
Missouri        11  5.55  5.18  0.18     6     5    0
Montana          3  1.75  1.00  0.18     2     1    0
Nebraska         5  3.11  1.66  0.18     3     2    0
Nevada           4  1.98  1.84  0.10     2     2    0
New Hampshire    4  1.92  1.87  0.16     2     2    0
New Jersey      15  6.04  8.42  0.44     6     8    1
New Mexico       5  2.39  2.40  0.18     2     3    0
New York        33 11.62 19.87  1.18    12    20    1
North Carolina  14  7.84  6.05  0.00     8     6    0
North Dakota     3  1.82  0.99  0.10     2     1    0
Ohio            21 10.49  9.76  0.53    10    10    1
Oklahoma         8  4.82  3.07  0.00     5     3    0
Oregon           7  3.26  3.29  0.35     3     3    1
Pennsylvania    23 10.68 11.64  0.48    11    12    0
Rhode Island     4  1.28  2.44  0.24     1     3    0
South Carolina   8  4.55  3.27  0.12     5     3    0
South Dakota     3  1.81  1.13  0.00     2     1    0
Tennessee       11  5.63  5.20  0.10     6     5    0
Texas           32 18.98 12.15  0.69    19    12    1
Utah             5  3.34  1.32  0.23     4     1    0
Vermont          3  1.22  1.52  0.21     1     2    0
Virginia        13  6.82  5.78  0.28     7     6    0
Washington      11  4.90  5.51  0.46     5     6    0
West Virginia    5  2.60  2.28  0.08     3     2    0
Wisconsin       11  5.24  5.26  0.40     5     5    1
Wyoming          3  2.03  0.83  0.06     2     1    0
Total          538                     263   262   13
*/
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