lets talk about it... - Page 4

[joshSCH]

not even once? for a milliesecond? And wait till you see me from the front before you decide if it's hot or not :P ;)

haha.. never have I been attracted to another guy.. Perhaps I've noticed if a dude was really ripped, and been like damn, I wish I looked like that... nothing sexual, though.

Okay, here is where I can prove that homosexuality is a decision... first of all - when my gay friend tells me that he chose to be gay. And second - when homosexuality is considered "abnormal" and "unnatural" because it causes the inability to reproduce in the human race. Homosexuality is a lifestyle, not based on genetics. Even science does not support the claim that homosexuality is genetic... and you can find evidence everywhere. Scientists have actually discovered that most of the reason why people are homosexual is due to environmental factors that can elicit some behavior. And if anyone has noticed, homosexuality/bisexuality has become more and more prominent... why? Because society has let it become an "okay" lifestyle.

Okay, here is where your theory is incorrect. Your gay friend does not represent the entire gay community.. Perhaps there are some people who choose to be gay, and others who do not. Homosexuality is by no means genetic.. but so? That doesn't have anything to do with homosexuality as a choice. Perhaps it is some kind of birth defect.. Many things can go wrong in the process of meiosis, and pregnancy. People have been born with webbed feet, and an extraordinary array of other adaptations.. why not be born gay? It is scientifically feasible... and since most gay people claim that it is not a choice, then I'd say it probably is not a choice. As I said earlier, my guess is some kind of problem that occurs at birth.. in which proteins are not synthesized correctly, or some other biological mishap. Also, environmental factors may play a part too.

And why in the world aren't gay couples or lesbian couples able to reproduce? Because it's unnatural. Don't you think if it was indeed natural or normal, they would have the ability to bear children?

Throughout human history, well actually not only humanity.. evolution and adaptations have created beings that would also be considered 'unnatural' and which would not be able to reproduce.

[Sturm]

> Okay, here is where I can prove that homosexuality is a decision... first of all - when my gay friend tells me that he chose to be gay. And second - when homosexuality is considered "abnormal" and "unnatural" because it causes the inability to reproduce in the human race. Homosexuality is a lifestyle, not based on genetics. Even science does not support the claim that homosexuality is genetic... and you can find evidence everywhere. Scientists have actually discovered that most of the reason why people are homosexual is due to environmental factors that can elicit some behavior.

And science determines your beliefs? Thats a good one.

>And if anyone has noticed, homosexuality/bisexuality has become more and more prominent... why? Because society has let it become an "okay" lifestyle.

Wow its called the zeitgeist moving toward the left (its also known as "progression"). Usually intelligence comes with acceptance. Take a group of scientists and a group of rednecks and see the contrast in opinion. Being left handed has also become more prominent. (since the middle ages) Does that mean more people are left handed? I seriously doubt it. More people than ever have autism or Asperger 's syndrome (which I have btw) than ever. Does this mean the number of autistic people has increased? Probably not.

[Ancient Dragon]

Okay, here is where I can prove that homosexuality is a decision... first of all - when my gay friend tells me that he chose to be gay.

That proves nothing. One person's voice doesn't speak for everyone.

And second - when homosexuality is considered "abnormal" and "unnatural" because it causes the inability to reproduce in the human race.

not relevent to the decision to be gay ot straight. And even straight people do not have sex just to have babies. In fact most of the time a baby is just an afterthought or no thought at all. People have sex because its fun, not for other reasons.

Homosexuality is a lifestyle, not based on genetics.

Hetrosexuality is also a lifestyle -- if you want to use that word.

Even science does not support the claim that homosexuality is genetic... and you can find evidence everywhere. Scientists have actually discovered that most of the reason why people are homosexual is due to environmental factors that can elicit some behavior.

That's at least partly correct -- but doesn't explain it all. Recall that ALL gay people had straight parents, you said it yourself. I could understand the environmental argument for kids raised in brothels where they are exposed to every conceivable sexual behavior. But most gays are raised in every-day homes with every-day mothers and fathers.

And if anyone has noticed, homosexuality/bisexuality has become more and more prominent... why? Because society has let it become an "okay" lifestyle.

Maybe -- or is it just because more of them are coming out and voicing their opinions in public.

Honestly, if people were "born that way" ... why didn't they show signs of this behavior in their early years?

Many of them do -- you just have to recognize the signs such as a 4-year-old boy who like to dress up in big sister's cloths.

[Salem]

> And if anyone has noticed, homosexuality/bisexuality has become more and more prominent... why?
Considering the centuries of oppression where the penalties for expressing your natural choice were variously "death", "the lynch mob" or "serious jail time", it it any wonder that the true nature of the range of human sexuality has been grossly miss-represented.

How many people in the past have entered into heterosexual relationships out of fear, as an effective (more or less) disguise from a bigoted society with nothing better to do than worry what consenting adults get up to in private. And don't tell me that you wouldn't choose a partner you didn't like if someone were holding a gun to your head, because I won't believe you.

If there is a "gay" gene (which I seriously doubt), then this kind of repression certainly an effective way of keeping it in the gene pool at elevated levels simply because "gay" people are forced to procreate where otherwise they would not. I guess we'll all find out in the next few generations whether there is really a genetic component, because part of it will surely die out through lack of procreation (that'll please the bigots at least).

> because it causes the inability to reproduce in the human race.
Do you regard celibacy with equal abhorrence because it too is a lifestyle choice (as you put it) which doesn't benefit the human race.

Oh what's that you say, what about all those bible bashing priests who've taken a vow of celibacy. Are you going to criticise their lifestyle choice as being "unnatural"?

[christina>you]

Wow... where in the world to start?

Homosexuality is by no means genetic.. but so? That doesn't have anything to do with homosexuality as a choice.

How does it not have anything to do with it being a choice?? If it's not genetic, then what is it? If scientists have proven that people are not born that way, then how can it not be a choice?

I must say, Josh... I thought you of all people would agree with me since the primary reason for why you don't believe in God is based on "science." I thought you said that "science is truth." ??

And science determines your beliefs? Thats a good one.

Hmm... don't know where you were going with that but okay. =/

That proves nothing. One person's voice doesn't speak for everyone.

Okay, so it doesn't account for anything? Mind you, he's a hardcore homosexual since middle school. And most of his "boyfriends" will tell me that they were not born to be gay... there are a few exceptions though.

not relevent to the decision to be gay ot straight. And even straight people do not have sex just to have babies. In fact most of the time a baby is just an afterthought or no thought at all. People have sex because its fun, not for other reasons.

How is it irrelevant?
So all married couples have sex primarily on the reason that it's fun? I think not. That's why we have contraceptives??

Hetrosexuality is also a lifestyle -- if you want to use that word.

Sure, heterosexuality is a lifestyle... and so is homosexuality.

That's at least partly correct -- but doesn't explain it all. Recall that ALL gay people had straight parents, you said it yourself. I could understand the environmental argument for kids raised in brothels where they are exposed to every conceivable sexual behavior. But most gays are raised in every-day homes with every-day mothers and fathers.

When I said environmental factors, I meant society... not just in the home.

My 2 friends that are gay both have straight parents.

Many of them do -- you just have to recognize the signs such as a 4-year-old boy who like to dress up in big sister's cloths.

Okay, what about me? I was a tom-boy growing up... I didn't like to play with barbies... I rather played with G.I. Joes and video games. I even dressed like a boy! But am I homo? No.

If there is a "gay" gene (which I seriously doubt), then this kind of repression certainly an effective way of keeping it in the gene pool at elevated levels simply because "gay" people are forced to procreate where otherwise they would not. I guess we'll all find out in the next few generations whether there is really a genetic component, because part of it will surely die out through lack of procreation (that'll please the bigots at least).

They've already proven that there is no "gay" gene. I think everybody really needs to do some research.

Do you regard celibacy with equal abhorrence because it too is a lifestyle choice (as you put it) which doesn't benefit the human race.

Actually, nope. And that's not what I said. Oh how I love it when people twist my words into their own interpretation.

Oh what's that you say, what about all those bible bashing priests who've taken a vow of celibacy. Are you going to criticise their lifestyle choice as being "unnatural"?

Hmm... for your info, I don't like those "bible bashing priests" you speak of. So yes.

[christina>you]

Come on guys... is anyone going to be on my side? If not, I'm just gonna stop debating because everyone obviously has their minds made up and I've spoke what I've had to say.

There are two kinds of people.The secular and the non-secular type.

Society, rightly or wrongly, depending on your religious standpoint, favours the secular type.

[ndeniche]

i wasn't saying your parents told you liking boys was the right thing... but you grew up knowing it was the right thing... that you wouldn't have a crush on your girlfriends...

[christina>you]

i wasn't saying your parents told you liking boys was the right thing... but you grew up knowing it was the right thing... that you wouldn't have a crush on your girlfriends...

I see.
But to be honest, I just thought it was natural... I didn't really consider it was "right" until I was older.

[Sturm]

>Come on guys... is anyone going to be on my side? If not, I'm just gonna stop debating because everyone obviously has their minds made up and I've spoke what I've had to say.

Daniweb, I think usually attracts open minded people.

[christina>you]

>Come on guys... is anyone going to be on my side? If not, I'm just gonna stop debating because everyone obviously has their minds made up and I've spoke what I've had to say.

Daniweb, I think usually attracts open minded people.

Umm... k.

[Ancient Dragon]

Come on guys... is anyone going to be on my side? If not, I'm just gonna stop debating because everyone obviously has their minds made up and I've spoke what I've had to say.

Yes I agee that this thread has probably gone as far as it can. We all have our own thinking on the topic because no one, not even supposedly knowledgable scientests, know why homosexuality happens. And it isn't unique in mankind -- other animals also behave that way. Its none of my business what people do in private as long as its otherwise legal and not physically harmful to someone else. The idea I personally wanted to get across is one of tolerance -- we should not hate someone just because they a different religion, a different color or a different sexual orientation. We are all people and should respect one another for that.

[christina>you]

Yes I agee that this thread has probably gone as far as it can. We all have our own thinking on the topic because no one, not even supposedly knowledgable scientests, know why homosexuality happens. And it isn't unique in mankind -- other animals also behave that way. Its none of my business what people do in private as long as its otherwise legal and not physically harmful to someone else. The idea I personally wanted to get across is one of tolerance -- we should not hate someone just because they a different religion, a different color or a different sexual orientation. We are all people and should respect one another for that.

Of course... I don't disagree with you at all.
I don't hate gay people because like I've said before, I have a couple of gay friends who I care about a lot.

[Ancient Dragon]

Of course... I don't disagree with you at all.
I don't hate gay people because like I've said before, I have a couple of gay friends who I care about a lot.

I did not say, nor mean, that you hate anyone. And I don't think you do. There are, however, a lot of people out in the world who do hate others based on the things I mentioned. Now if you re-read my post with that in mind I think you will probably agree with what I wrote.

[ndeniche]

Come on guys... is anyone going to be on my side? If not, I'm just gonna stop debating because everyone obviously has their minds made up and I've spoke what I've had to say.

umm... if you haven't noticed... i'm on your side...

[christina>you]

I did not say, nor mean, that you hate anyone. And I don't think you do. There are, however, a lot of people out in the world who do hate others based on the things I mentioned. Now if you re-read my post with that in mind I think you will probably agree with what I wrote.

I told you that I didn't disagree with you...?

umm... if you haven't noticed... i'm on your side...

Oh... sorry I didn't know.

[joshSCH]

I'm not disagreeing with science, I'm simply saying that genetics obviously has nothing to do with being gay.. but logically speaking, gays probably do not choose to be gay themselves. As I said earlier, some kind of environmental factors or biological mishaps are to blame.

As Salem stated, the gays were previously persecuted... why would anyone choose that? Why would people blatantly choose to be outcasts of society? It is illogical.. and the only explanation is that it is not a mental choice.

[christina>you]

I'm not disagreeing with science, I'm simply saying that genetics obviously has nothing to do with being gay.. but logically speaking, gays probably do not choose to be gay themselves. As I said earlier, some kind of environmental factors or biological mishaps are to blame.

As Salem stated, the gays were previously persecuted... why would anyone choose that? Why would people blatantly choose to be outcasts of society? It is illogical.. and the only explanation is that it is not a mental choice.

I don't know why either... but my friend just recently told me that he no longer believes that it was a choice... and I told him I wouldn't believe him especially because he told me just a few months ago that he thought the "born that way" theory was a lie. His new "boyfriend" is trying to talk him into believing that all gay men were born to be homosexual even though he told me he never felt that way.

[Ancient Dragon]

I told you that I didn't disagree with you...?
.

Oops! I misunderstood your statement.

[hbk619]

Honestly, if people were "born that way" ... why didn't they show signs of this behavior in their early years?

Some do, can't remember names but I know there's a few famous gay people who said they realised they liked guys when they were little.

I understand your explanation... I did find the other guys attractive, but I chose not to pursue after them. And sure, men could like other men and women could like other women, but that doesn't mean you're born that way. And if they chose to be with a girl, wouldn't that make them bisexual? Wait a minute... are people born to be bisexual? No. It's just raging hormones.

I thought to be officially bi you'd have to have been with both (in a relationship sense). All the agony aunts will tell you most people have an element of homosexuality to them.

[ndeniche]

I thought to be officially bi you'd have to have been with both (in a relationship sense).

to be officially bi you have to have sex with both genders and like it...

[Ancient Dragon]

>>Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.:*

[hbk619]

So all married couples have sex primarily on the reason that it's fun? I think not. That's why we have contraceptives??

Yes, unless they are trying for a baby. And that IS why we have contraceptvies. So people can have sex for fun, some people choose not to use them and get knocked up twice in 6 months....... but that's a completly different story.

and ta AD :) Not my quote though.

[christina>you]

Yes, unless they are trying for a baby. And that IS why we have contraceptvies. So people can have sex for fun, some people choose not to use them and get knocked up twice in 6 months....... but that's a completly different story.

and ta AD :) Not my quote though.

I know that's what I meant lol. Actually I was saying not ALL couples have sex primarily for the fun of it, but to have children.

[Dani]

Is it possible to get knocked up twice in 6 months?

[joshSCH]

.. I think she meant some chick has sex, gets pregnant, and then has an abortion twice in a 6 month period. :)

[debasisdas]

You can do that even more in that period.

this useless posts dont grow up daniweb as a IT Discussion community.....;)

[quintoncoert]

this might seem a bit strange since it is being posted three days after but i could not get here sooner. that is the only problem with geek's lounge. you miss a day and the world moves on.

about you liking or not liking other women and you attributing it to hormones. here is something interesting.

recently a survey was done. here is what it was about.

some men were found to be married to some of the world's most beautifull women. and when these women were quetion they all gave a somewhat similar answer.

they all describe being attracted to these men because of physical attributes(in some cases non physical) which can only be described as decidedly female. for example some mentioned a delicate bone structure or slim beautifull hands and fingers while others described the facial features in what can only be through the eyes of a man. (i.e. sharp clear cut features, small but not weak chin etc.) you must understand that these men still had to be attractive as men but these women were attracted to them because of certain female characteristics.

i suppose you did not really attack josch but you were a bit disaproving. i just would have thought it interesting that you were going at him if it would have turned out that you do not even like men!

one more thing. i had been attracted to another man once. i walked into his store and for a minute i lost complete control over my own thoughts and emotions as i experienced what could only be described as a rush of hormones complete with dizzyness.

what is worse is that i was attracted to him in a way that i know a woman is attracted to a man.

i stood motionless for several seconds while i fought it. after i regained control over myself i looked at him and grinned. i do not know if he realized what had happened. but then i just asked him what i went in there for in the first place(i.e. bycicle inner tubes) and then i left.

to this day i believe that he must have used some sort of feromone but why on earth it worked on me and why exactly in that specific manner i really dont know.

i can't felt on anyone in anyway (realy i never wonder on girls) ..it shows that you cannot control your mind yourself..!