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These are two very different,very conflicting ideas about the state of humanity,things that call our entire lives into question.

After all,if there is fate,then we are bound by what is destined to be and yet if there is free will then everything is a random happening of chance. Neither seems to be a very comforting option and both seem to totally disagree,but what if they don't?

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Last Post by hbk619
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These are two very different,very conflicting ideas about the state of humanity,things that call our entire lives into question.

After all,if there is fate,then we are bound by what is destined to be and yet if there is free will then everything is a random happening of chance. Neither seems to be a very comforting option and both seem to totally disagree,but what if they don't?

Yep.. which is exactly why it is impossible for an omnipotent being to exist, and for free will to exist simultaneously :)

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I don't think it really matters. Either way we will never know. Best to just go on thinking its free will.

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We are all predestined to die (certainly in the physical sense). But, in the intervening period we can exercise free will, so how we arrive at that point is not fated. And of course we don't know how long that intervening period is going to be.

There is certainly bias in the system. Although you have free will, how free is it truely? You are constrained by authority and peers you respect and knowledge you accept as truth. I have a creative talent nurtured in my youth, so it is not surprising I ended up in a job in which that talent is required. it is a kind of destiny. We largely go where we are going because of where we came from. We all have a psychological map. Those more able to change there map have a less predictable path than those whose map is more rigid.

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I just want to know how he's defining predestined. If he's using the traditional "it will happen, there's nothing you can do to escape it" sense, then I do not believe that it exists. But if he's using a slightly different variant of "This is how things are planned out", then I'm willing to allow that. How many people do you know that can stick to a given plan 100%?

I do believe in free will. And I do not believe that free will means that an omnipotent, omniscient being cannot exist. Josh, you're the one who brought this up this time: You seem to be implying that a being having the power to do something will automatically do said something. Am I inferring correctly what you intend?

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We're free to choose, but Ifni is unpredictable.

And even if everything were predestined, those deciding that destiny (the very fact that you believe in predestination means you believe in some deity or other) had the free will to decide on that destiny and therefore free will still exists (it's just not you who has it).

Of course that's the case with communist societies. The State determines the destiny and path of everything and everyone (or tries to, with varrying degrees of success).

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How about both? :) On the one hand you have free will where we make our own decisions and direct the flow of our lives. But on the other hand you have fate where everyone else's free will and the world around us affects our decisions and the way our brains are hardwired means that we'll make predictable decisions based on all of that. So maybe we have free will but our free will is predetermined by how we react to different variables. :D

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in the end entropy will win and all will ascend towards kaos.
So in that way you have no free will.
But in the meantime you do have free will, it's just that whatever you do the end result will be the same...

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Your fate to a large extend is the result of the will of other human beings. You may be born into a family of wealth or thiefs, into a messy war or dictatorship, into an area of religious extremists or enlightened well educated people. The list goes on and is an important part of your fate.

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I don't know.

I think fate is a dangerous notion. You can get wrapped up with the idea that if anything was meant to be -- it would happen. So you end up living your life just waiting...and that's the worst thing you can do, because at the end, you just can't help but think what if?

I think it's up to the individual to make what they want of their destiny. I think fate underpins our lives, but it only presents us with a decision, ultimately we decide.

"There is no fate but what we make?" - T2

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>I think fate is a dangerous notion. You can get wrapped up with the idea that if anything was meant to be -- it would happen. So you end up living your life just waiting...and that's the worst thing you can do, because at the end, you just can't help but think what if?

I agree, but none the less I don't believe in free will.

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By Ifni's balls. Fate is nice, but unreliable.

Or as Terry Pratchett puts it: Gods play games with the lifes of men, and the like to cheat.

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Oh how shall I measure your insignificance?
Your mass (say 100kg) compared to the mass of the universe
Your lifetime (say 100 years) compared to the lifetime of the universe

Man, that's a lot of leading zeros (0.0000<snore>0001%) totalling your part in it all.

Do you still think that something has got a plan just for you? Talk about micro management - sheesh!

Travelling to the other side of the world to wonder what an amoeba is doing for the next nanosecond doesn't even come close to measuring the pointlessness of it all.


Take eating for example, is that fate or free will?
Sure you can claim free will and "skip lunch" because you're on a diet, but it's not a choice you can maintain indefinitely. Sooner or later, biology takes over and you either eat something or die. Is that now fate?

Or you can "want" to climb a wall like spider-man all you want, but is it fate (or physics) which keeps you on the ground?

How many people are doing this Saturday exactly what they did last Saturday? Are all those people expressing free will (seems boring), or just fate (or perhaps you prefer routine). Perhaps the limit of your free will was to choose another store to shop at, and not something as radical as choosing not to shop at all.

Unless you're old enough to have a damn good pension, or seriously wealthy without having to work, then maybe you can indulge yourself by going from rock musician to mountain climber to fruit picker in as many days.

Most people are pretty much stuck with their place in the vast machine known as society. The number of real life-changing choices they make in any given year (change job, move house, get married, have children, buy car) are pretty few and far between. Most everything else is concerned with dealing with the demands of biology, obeying the laws of physics, and not screwing up in the eyes of the social group they interact with.

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Most people are pretty much stuck with their place in the vast machine known as society. The number of real life-changing choices they make in any given year (change job, move house, get married, have children, buy car) are pretty few and far between. Most everything else is concerned with dealing with the demands of biology, obeying the laws of physics, and not screwing up in the eyes of the social group they interact with.

Very well stated Salem!

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If the pilot's fate is to die, do the passengers come along? What is your fate as a coal-miner, if the owner has bought politicians to bypass safety?

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>If the pilot's fate is to die, do the passengers come along?

Depends how he's fated to die.

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What you don't seem to realize is that, to God, what we call time is another physical dimension in space.

God sees it all simultaneously, for He is outside time.

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How many people are doing this Saturday exactly what they did last Saturday? Are all those people expressing free will (seems boring), or just fate (or perhaps you prefer routine).

Or you're being paid £5.34 an hour to do it ;)

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