Least Honest People - Page 4

[Ezzaral]

I find it interesting. No reason in particular, it is just interesting.

And what of the spelling of god and dog?

[jasimp]

Interesting but not as interesting.

[briansmall]

Man is common to both God and dog.

Maybe, as dog is man's best friend, so is man God's best friend?

I find that an interesting notion. Santa and Satan both wear red, I can see no other meaningful connection or contrast.

[Ezzaral]

Man is common to both God and dog.

Maybe, as dog is man's best friend, so is man God's best friend?

Man created that relationship with the dog... and perhaps the one with gods?

[jasimp]

I find that an interesting notion. Santa and Satan both wear red, I can see no other meaningful connection or contrast.

They are both sneaky and a lie. They also both have slaves, the elves, and demons and they are both vengeful, don't be good and you get coal. Also they are both tools parents use to teach kids manners, and consequences. I have nothing against the Santa lie and I do not believe in Satan (or gods), I just find the connections interesting.

[briansmall]

That would be my best guess, (where God is concerned.)

But our relationship to dogs is quite palpable, and it occurs in nature.

[jasimp]

I cannot stand dogs. (well most dogs)

[briansmall]

They are both sneaky and a lie. They also both have slaves, the elves, and demons and they are both vengeful, don't be good and you get coal. Also they are both tools parents use to teach kids manners, and consequences. I have nothing against the Santa lie and I do not believe in Satan (or gods), I just find the connections interesting.

Interesting indeed. But don't you think that most children see through the vengeful part of Santa? After all, they get presents or they don't, and I'd bet that it's pretty clear to most that it has nothing to do with the Naughty or Nice aspect of their behavior.

So the Santa lie centers much more on "where" the presents come from rather than their morality or behavior.

As for Satan, well, that's several orders of magnitude greater in its imagery... But it's not really about Satan, after all, he is (only) the head warden Hell, the place God tosses you if you disappoint him.

Santa is a childhood fantasy, Satan is forever.

[briansmall]

I cannot stand dogs. (well most dogs)

I wonder how many people can say that?

Frankly I feel for them, we humans have done to them what we do to everything. There's a lot of great dogs out there. And some downright nasty ones. Kind of like people in that respect. (I feel for them as well.)

[jasimp]

But part of the lie is that if you are bad you will receive coal, which is vengeful, even though no one does receive coal becasue it is a lie.

[jasimp]

I wonder how many people can say that?

Frankly I feel for them, we humans have done to them what we do to everything. There's a lot of great dogs out there. And some downright nasty ones. Kind of like people in that respect. (I feel for them as well.)

There are wonderful, loving dogs who always kind but for some reason I do not like them as pets.

[briansmall]

But part of the lie is that if you are bad you will receive coal, which is vengeful, even though no one does receive coal becasue it is a lie.

Yes, well there are degrees of lying, aren't there?

[sneekula]

~~~
Santa is a childhood fantasy, Satan is forever.

Imagine, and all you did is move the letter n.

Judging from all the misery on earth, Satan is much more omnipresent than God.

Back to topic:
Are our religious leaders very honest? They are not in the poll.

[Ezzaral]

Imagine, and all you did is move the letter n.

Imagine, differing placements of letters create different words and perhaps wholly unrelated concepts...
:-/

[briansmall]

Imagine, and all you did is move the letter n.

Judging from all the misery on earth, Satan is much more omnipresent than God.

Back to topic:
Are our religious leaders very honest? They are not in the poll.

Now there is a question with some meat on it. Often, we can see lies. Often we cannot, we will never know they existed.

So, for example, if the Bible were to be a contrivance, put together from fantasy rather than fact (to whatever degree) how big a lie would that be?

[Ezzaral]

So, for example, if the Bible were to be a contrivance, put together from fantasy rather than fact (to whatever degree) how big a lie would that be?

I would wager the biggest lie every perpetuated in history.

In fact, I believe that to actually be the case.

[sneekula]

I would wager the biggest lie every perpetuated in history.

In fact, I believe that to actually be the case.

In all fairness, there are a huge number of people that need the rules of the Bible or the Koran to live by. It gives their lives a much needed structure.

However, these good books have been abused by less than honest people to their gain. That's were the dishonesty come in.

[briansmall]

I would wager the biggest lie every perpetuated in history.

In fact, I believe that to actually be the case.

The evidence points that way.

[scru]

What evidence?

[EnderX]

Any of you ever tested the Bible before? A fair-sized portion of it is historical data, and to the best of my knowledge, while much of that data has been verified by the discipline of archaeology, none of it has ever been disproven in like manner. If you're going to claim it's a massive lie, then would you please point out where it is, in fact, testably inaccurate?

[Ezzaral]

If you're going to claim it's a massive lie, then would you please point out where it is, in fact, testably inaccurate?

In the theological aspirations, which you will note, are by definition not testable and wholly lacking in evidence. Though perhaps it is a wealth of historical chronology, that is not the reason Christians cleave to it. The ascriptions of causality to a deity and admonitions to adhere to a code of conduct set forth by said deity is the part that is lacking in credibility.

[briansmall]

What evidence?

The evidence that is all around us. It is in what we observe in those around us, in our history. It is what know about human nature through that observation.

We can understand history by virtue of knowing how man reacts to various circumstances. How he reacts today, how he reacted in history. What motivates him. What effect that motivation has on others.

Particularly, some men are interested in the control of his fellow man, primarily for profit. The question is, what is the Bible to those men? It is a lock into a structured belief system that yields enormous profit for those that know how to use it.

The "lock" of religion (belief = eternal reward / disbelief = eternal damnation) is, well, the ultimate psychological tool. It doesn't take a genius to see it. And people were smart enough to see it back then as well as now. Regardless of what we purport to "know" about the Council of Nicea and Constantine, the fact is, it was a group of people who wanted control of the populace that created the bible. Men, cloistered, with an agenda.

I simply think it unlikely in the extreme that the power that was concentrated upon the project (those who determined the necessity to bring everyone under the umbrella of one religious belief system) did not indulge in fabrication in order to secure the lock.

I think long hard hours were spent refinining it, mixing truth with fabrication, playing on fears and half-truths (at best) in order to come up with the manual that would be the basis of control of many of the masses for the next thousands of years. They knew what they were doing. They had all of history, all knowledge of human nature for all of time leading up to that point to draw upon as they carefully crafted the book that would define what people were allowed to think or pursue.

Knowing human nature, knowing that this moment in time was had the influence of the culmination of all human history before it, I cannot believe for one second that a group of the most powerful men in civilized society did not have their sites set on nothing less than exactly what they produced, "The Bible", the most influential, and thus most powerful piece of literature ever compiled. The effects of it having been written are too astounding to fully comprehend.

It got the intended results. The most clever lock on the human spirit that the mind of man can devise.

You can't meaningfully argue it. You can't prove it. You just believe, or not.

Fear is a great motivator. Fear of eternal damnation, the greatest. It's a lock. Once in place, it will not be broken but by a very few.

[scru]

The evidence that is all around us. It is in what we observe in those around us, in our history. It is what know about human nature through that observation.

We can understand history by virtue of knowing how man reacts to various circumstances. How he reacts today, how he reacted in history. What motivates him. What effect that motivation has on others.

Particularly, some men are interested in the control of his fellow man, primarily for profit. The question is, what is the Bible to those men? It is a lock into a structured belief system that yields enormous profit for those that know how to use it.

The "lock" of religion (belief = eternal reward / disbelief = eternal damnation) is, well, the ultimate psychological tool. It doesn't take a genius to see it. And people were smart enough to see it back then as well as now. Regardless of what we purport to "know" about the Council of Nicea and Constantine, the fact is, it was a group of people who wanted control of the populace that created the bible. Men, cloistered, with an agenda.

I simply think it unlikely in the extreme that the power that was concentrated upon the project (those who determined the necessity to bring everyone under the umbrella of one religious belief system) did not indulge in fabrication in order to secure the lock.

I think long hard hours were spent refinining it, mixing truth with fabrication, playing on fears and half-truths (at best) in order to come up with the manual that would be the basis of control of many of the masses for the next thousands of years. They knew what they were doing. They had all of history, all knowledge of human nature for all of time leading up to that point to draw upon as they carefully crafted the book that would define what people were allowed to think or pursue.

Knowing human nature, knowing that this moment in time was had the influence of the culmination of all human history before it, I cannot believe for one second that a group of the most powerful men in civilized society did not have their sites set on nothing less than exactly what they produced, "The Bible", the most influential, and thus most powerful piece of literature ever compiled. The effects of it having been written are too astounding to fully comprehend.

It got the intended results. The most clever lock on the human spirit that the mind of man can devise.

You can't meaningfully argue it. You can't prove it. You just believe, or not.

Fear is a great motivator. Fear of eternal damnation, the greatest. It's a lock. Once in place, it will not be broken but by a very few.

You're so long winded yet you haven't proved anything...

[briansmall]

Any of you ever tested the Bible before? A fair-sized portion of it is historical data, and to the best of my knowledge, while much of that data has been verified by the discipline of archaeology, none of it has ever been disproven in like manner. If you're going to claim it's a massive lie, then would you please point out where it is, in fact, testably inaccurate?

Ah, innocent until proven guilty? This is not a supportable request. No one can go back and witness the "writing" of the bible. Any evidence as to the intent of the authors is pure conjecture. Short of God appearing to us in an unquestionable manner, it will never be proven one way or the other. Archeology is mud and rocks, place and time. Of course it fits. But the tales of the people.. that's all anecdotal, there is no evidence at all.

Knowing the mind of man, it's simply my best guess as to the what and why of it all. I have no proof to offer.

[briansmall]

You're so long winded yet you haven't proved anything...

You wish for proof of a thing that happened almost 2000 years ago?

You wish for my explanation of beliefs that fly in the face of billions of believers and bazillions of words of supporting belief to be written more tersely? A few paragraphs is too much for you?

Believe what you want.

You can see logic, faith, God, the Devil, Man, Science .. anything you want to look at, any way you want to.

I have only my logic and observational powers to guide me. Short of a visit from God, I'll stick with what I have, you can do the same, with my blessing.

I like religion, generally, (for others.) It keeps some of them more or less in line. That's a good thing. Unfortunately, it does perhaps as much harm as good.

[scru]

You wish for proof of a thing that happened almost 2000 years ago?

Weren't you the one who said there was all that evidence? I'm just asking that you show it. Is that so hard?

[briansmall]

Weren't you the one who said there was all that evidence? I'm just asking that you show it. Is that so hard?

Perhaps you did not read all of my long-winded post. I explained in the first few lines that the evidence can be seen by observing the behavior of mankind, particularly those who lust for power, now, and historically.

Or perhaps you did read and understand, and want proof by examples.

I give you Cheney as a current example. Perhaps you disagree. I won't make create a list of behaviors and perpetrators for you, you either see this behavior in mankind, or you do not. If not, then no amount of reference to the behavior of individuals (evidence) will convince you.

Man is a constant in his existance. He has learned almost nothing outside of the realm of the physical. He certainly has not modified his behavior other than to extend the effects of it. His feelings and desires, his compassion and disregard are virtually identical to that which his forebearors shared, possibly right back to cave-man days.

You can look at his behavior and know him (in the aggregate). If you don't see the evidence, I cannot show it to you, it'd be like showing a green-color blind person, green.. they just would not see it. But if they are not color blind, they've already seen it, and only have to be directed to the notion that you call it "green" to understand what you mean.

[MidiMagic]

I suggest that you actually READ the Bible with an open mind before you condemn it.

[MidiMagic]

But part of the lie is that if you are bad you will receive coal, which is vengeful, even though no one does receive coal becasue it is a lie.

Oh Boy! Valuable fuel!
Oh Boy! Anthracite for my rock collection!

[jbennet]

my grandad actually got coal, he was bad to his parents , it made him a bit of a scrooge