ATI's answer to Nvidia's SLI

[belama]

ATI now has their own answer to Nvidia's SLI...

The Crossfire!!!

That's cool!!! It's supposed to kick SLI's butt. :D

What do you think?

[JoetjeF]

It certainly has some potential: http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=2273&s=1

One big advantage of Crossfire is that it doesn't require AFR profiles, as is required for SLI, but that it will accellerate any Direct3D game. A fine tuned AFR profile will of course speed up the game even more, but at least you don't have to wait till ATI/game developers releases them.

[belama]

I hope it is as good as they say it is.

Here's another review: http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2005/06/02/crossfire_preview/1.html
On page 5 you can read the editor's comment where he saw it in action. I cant wait to see it in action myself!

[Catweazle]

Chuck me just about any 'fact' about SLI/Crossfire and why it's 'good' and I'll counteract it with an argument showing why it's a waste of time. Let's start with the ones stated so far.

The claim that Crossfire will 'kick SLI's butt' is a bit hasty. It will be faster in some respects and slower in others.

The claim that 'doesn't require AFR profiles, as is required for SLI, but that it will accellerate any Direct3D game' is just words aired for little purpose. SLI/Crossfire is really designed at games to come, not games we already have. Any existing game will run quite well enough on any decent existing single display card, so for those SLI/Crossfire is a redundant issue. future games will, of course, have AFR profiles available for them so the difference has no import really.

[belama]

Yeah I understand. My x850xt can do the work better than I could have ever wanted. In about a year or a little more if I want to upgrade my video, instead of trying to sell my current one I could just buy the crossfire x850 and the mobo. Thats if it comes cheaper that way. Prices should drop by then I guess.

** I would definitely not buy it right away when it comes out **

[Catweazle]

OK, time to answer that little misconception.

Firstly, before that year is out the R520 cards will be out and available, and they'll do double the X850XT performance with a single card. In addition to that, don't pin your hopes on the current top of the line card hanging around getting cheaper and cheaper. History proves that just doesn't happen.

When the next generation of display cards comes out, the top of the line cards from the previous generation rather rapidly disappear from the marketplace. A cut-down version of it will linger for a while till the mid-range cards of the next generation become established.

If you want to use two top of the line cards of a particular generation in SLI configuration, you gotta get them them from the outset or shortly after. That's for NVidia SLI.

ATi Crossfire is a little different. That requires a new card which can act as a 'master' card. So you're gonna be able to get that X850XT Crossfire master and a new Crossfire enabled motherboard and do the job. But hey, all you're gonna do is get the same performance as you would if you waited and installed an R520 based ATi card anyway, and it's most likely gonna cost you just as much!

Sorry, but I don't see much point in that ;)

[belama]

heh heh

I've put a couple of IFs in my previous post. I would surely consider the best money for performance option.

[Catweazle]

Thanks for the heh heh..........

:D

As you can see, I've kinda got a 'bee in the bonnet' about dual display cards. I really dislike the way they're being marketted as something they're not. To be quite honest, I think the only real world use for them is to boost the egos of super rich benchmark whores who can afford to buy two of the fastest display cards that money can buy, and then sit back getting an epenis enlargement from the fact that they can get benchmark results wich beat those of anybody else they know.

They've got a reasonably practical application for people who are content to sit a fair bit back from the cutting edge with a mid-range card and want to stretch their system life out a bit, but that's the only real life value they have at present in my view. In time to come they'll quite possible be apretty standard thing, but certainly not until the graphics chip race slows down, and we no longer see ATi and NVidia putting out a new graphics chip each year which is twice as good as the previous one.

[JoetjeF]

My post might not be that clear, but I agree with Catweazle. I'm actually only interested in the technology involved, no way I'll pay that amount of money for a dual graphics card.

This kind of development is for people who can afford it, not for people who need it. No doubt ATI had to do something to compete with Nvidia's SLI, it's all about image. We'll see what happens next.

[belama]

I know it myself. My benchmarks scores are super high with my single card and games run well enough. I dont see why I would want to have a second card right now.

[belama]

My post might not be that clear, but I agree with Catweazle. I'm actually only interested in the technology involved, no way I'll pay that amount of money for a dual graphics card.

This kind of development is for people who can afford it, not for people who need it. No doubt ATI had to do something to compete with Nvidia's SLI, it's all about image. We'll see what happens next.

Nobody needs dual video cards. Like Catweazle said, right now its only purpose which is useless, would be to have the best benchmarks since you can have single cards that can surpass your needs.

[goaliemike]

Yes, u have a point that they are usless for us people of course. If you look now some company's are switching their workstations to SLI because you dont need to render the graphics from both monitors on the same card. Its true that SLI was awsome and all, but us canadians here prefer to stick with our shit (sorry for the language). Ive been wanting to upgrade for a while, and ill be getting that crossfire system. Finally ill be able to play far cry lol

[Catweazle]

goaliemike, I can play FarCry perfectly well on a Socket A Athlon XP together with an FX5900XT AGP card! No bloody SLI setup needed for that one ;)

[goaliemike]

Ok should i play far cry without any problems on this setup

amd xp 2000+
sapphire atlantis 9200se
1gb ram

[Catweazle]

A 9200SE is a REALLY crappy video card. Far Cry might play but you'd definitely need to reduce graphics options, and even then it'd likely be 'choppy'.

You don't 'need' SLI, you simply need a better display card!

[belama]

Yep. 9200se sure is crappy. My cousin has P4 2ghz with this card and he'd rather not play far cry cuz he has to put everything almost at minimum and still the quality is not great. Before, I had a 9600xt and it had resonable graphics.

If you want a new video card you should get a 6600GT or radeon x700 at least if you want it to be good for some time. A 6600 GT can be bought for about 160$US to 200$US.

[goaliemike]

Yep. 9200se sure is crappy. My cousin has P4 2ghz with this card and he'd rather not play far cry cuz he has to put everything almost at minimum and still the quality is not great. Before, I had a 9600xt and it had resonable graphics.

If you want a new video card you should get a 6600GT or radeon x700 at least if you want it to be good for some time. A 6600 GT can be bought for about 160$US to 200$US.

Ya k u kno my comp belama, remember i got ure external HDD.

Ok now im going 2 be going AMD 64, maybee the FX series. But i kneed a pretty good comp, so i might get a Crossfire mobo from ATI, but only 1 card for now. Woulds a x300 do for gaming for a while (PCI-e), and is it worth its amount.

[Catweazle]

An X300 card is TOTALLY unsuitable for gaming. Games performance is heavily reliant on the power of the display card, and much less reliant on the power of the processor. In addition, if you want to use Crossfire you will need to choose an X800 series card or an X850 series card. No other ATI cards will be suitable for use in Crossfire configuration until the R520 based next generation cards are released, according to currently available information.

If you plan on a system for games, and your budget won't stretch to a better card than an X300, then choose less processor and more video card ;)

The configuration you've suggested there sucks!

[goaliemike]

Ya ok, i didnt know if the card was gaming or not. Ok i have a budget of 3,000 CND. But i prefer to pay around 1,000. I would go with a 3000+ as minimum, and a X800 with 1GB ram.

[belama]

Ya ok, i didnt know if the card was gaming or not. Ok i have a budget of 3,000 CND. But i prefer to pay around 1,000. I would go with a 3000+ as minimum, and a X800 with 1GB ram.

From where in Canada are you? I am from Ottawa ;).

If you want a x800 it will be hard to keep the price around 1000$, especially if it is the XT version. I was lucky enough to find a x850xt at 600$ in nepean. That takes a big chunk of a budget.

Are you going to build it yourself? There arent many people that can build a pc and doesnt know if a certain card is up to date for gaming...

[Catweazle]

Let's keep this discussion relevent to SLI and Crossfire, shall we?

For later use in a crossfire configuration, someone purchasing an X800 series card right now can save a few dollars by purchasing an X800XL card rather than an X800 Pro or an X800XT. Sure, the XL isn't as fast or as capable as the higher performance alternatives, but when the time comes to add the second card for Crossfire configuration consider this:

* Crossfire requires one card to be a special 'Master' card.
* The dual card performance of Crossfire is limited to the speed and capabilities of the weakest card in the pairing
* The X800 'Master' cards are going to be XL speed, because only XL cards are still being produced in the X800 line.

Add that all together and you get a situation in which, if Crossfire dual card is the eventual goal, it's more economic to put up with slightly lowr performance initially for X800 cards. The X850 cards don't have that limitation, I believe, and the X850 'Master' card is going to be more capable.

[belama]

Yes, the x850 crossfire will be capable of running at the xt pe specs if you have the original platinum edition.

[Catweazle]

No, as I understand it the master card will be X850XT, not X850XT PE. Thus, Crossfire configuration will be limited to X850XT performance level in the dual configuration, even if the 'Slave' card is X850XT PE.

Small difference when you are doubling that performance I guess, but a pertinent point nevertheless. It's no good expecting something to happen when it isn't gonna :)

[belama]

I found this in the FAQs on the ATI link I provided.

8. What happens when you pair a 12-pipe CrossFire Edition card with a 16-pipe card?

A. In this scenario both cards will operate as 12-pipe cards while in CrossFire mode.

9. What happens when your CrossFire Edition card and and a compatible standard Radeon (CrossFire Ready) graphics card have different clock speeds?

A. Both cards will continue to operate at their individual clock speeds.

I guess it is only the pipes that will be reduced on the x-fire if the other card has less pipes. So if your original card is a XTPE, and the x-fire has the XT specs, they will work at their original clock speeds. They are both 16-pipe already so no change there.
We were kinda both wrong :D.

[Catweazle]

belama, the information ATi has provided there is 'PR-speak'. It's technically correct but effectively incorrect.

The faster card will certainly operate at its native speed. But it won't continually operate. It will spend a fair amount of time 'waiting' for the slower card, so effectively it will be limited to the slower speed.

[belama]

Makes sense, it's just like cpus with video cards.

Nevertheless, XT PE and XT are only 20-40mhz of dfference so there wouldnt be any major performance loss.

[goaliemike]

Ok whell one thing is for shure, SLI is getting their ass kicked by ATI`s crossfire. Just look at all the advantages from it, and its supposed to come out soon. If im shure its going 2 be out at the end of the month, and anyways itll be faster then any single PCI-e card youll ever find.

O and btw, u kno me belma. I bought ure externall HDD

[Catweazle]

Care to list those 'advantages' and the extent, in benchmark terms, to which Crossfire is 'kicking SLI's ass'. Or are you simply spouting nonsense you've heard but not understood?

There are several 'modes' for Crossfire. One of those 'modes' allows older games to be used as SLI enabled rather than single card. Whoopty doo! Those games don't need dual cards to run at full detail anyway, and that mode doesn't give double performance - only about a 15% increase!

Crossfire is more flexible than NVidia SLI but only slightly. The two cards used don't need to be identical, but they need to be damned close!

At its fastest mode of operation Crossfire outperforms NVidia SLI, but only by a narrow margin in realistic terms. The truth is, either configuration gives enough performance to cater to game needs for the foreseeable future. Hell mate, if I just knocked the Terminator out with a single clenched fist punch, do you reckon you'd 'kick my ass' by doing the same with a knuckleduster on? The bastard's still flat on his back, isn't he?

And, just for the record, your comment " itll be faster then any single PCI-e card youll ever find." is just plain silly. In a short while the NVidia 7xxx series cards and the ATi R520 cards will be out, and either of those cards will match or outperform two current cards in dual configuration!

[belama]

Ya k u kno my comp belama, remember i got ure external HDD.

LOL :lol:

I just noticed this post. Welcome to Daniweb Mike!!!
If you have any questions about what to get for your future new PC just ask in the appropriate forum. BTW, u forgot to add my user name to the referal textbox when u registered. :D

Catweazle: I like how you relate computer stuff to things like kicking the Terminator's ass. LOL
And you are right about future single GPU performance being similar to dual GPU of today. Right now I consider crossfire as a easier way of upgrading my computer in the future instead of finding a buyer.

In August we'll see reviews that make more sense cuz it will be out.

[goaliemike]

U got a point that its only a slight increse in performance, but for some real gamer itll make a diffrence and give you that edge. But i also agree to belma that we are talking about the product, and its not even in stores yet.

Until the reviews in april, we shoudnt care much more about this. But letts not ferget to talk about it ;) lol