Collins: Why this scientist believes in God

I'm not quite sure I entirely agree with some of the things he said, such as here:

Yes, evolution by descent from a common ancestor is clearly true. If there was any lingering doubt about the evidence from the fossil record, the study of DNA provides the strongest possible proof of our relatedness to all other living things.

But why couldn't this be God's plan for creation? True, this is incompatible with an ultra-literal interpretation of Genesis, but long before Darwin, there were many thoughtful interpreters like St. Augustine, who found it impossible to be exactly sure what the meaning of that amazing creation story was supposed to be. So attaching oneself to such literal interpretations in the face of compelling scientific evidence pointing to the ancient age of Earth and the relatedness of living things by evolution seems neither wise nor necessary for the believer.

We have never been able to prove that evolution is real, and as far as I am concerned, never will. I'm not saying it's not a possibility, but I don't think we'll ever have solid enough evidence to believe it for sure.

However, the article was very interesting. Thanks for the link.

(btw the matty, congrats on entering the "DaniWeb hall of fame", how does it feel to have a nice badge beside your name? :D)

I'm not quite sure I entirely agree with some of the things he said, such as here:

We have never been able to prove that evolution is real, and as far as I am concerned, never will. I'm not saying it's not a possibility, but I don't think we'll ever have solid enough evidence to believe it for sure.

However, the article was very interesting. Thanks for the link.

(btw the matty, congrats on entering the "DaniWeb hall of fame", how does it feel to have a nice badge beside your name? :D)

Hi Joe:

I believe Evolution is a high possibility, but that is not to say I am completely convinced; the pieces that make up Evolutionary Theory almost fit, it seems, but almost is not empirical proof. I believe, though, that there is a high possibility that it will most likely be proven in our lifetime (if it is indeed true).

As a Protestant I hold specific beliefs closely and without question-- but, some I do question very much such as "Creation": I believe the Big Bang produced our Universe and that our Universe continues to expand. I have a deep notion that other life forms (possibly humanoid, possibly carbon-based) exist in other galaxies and that they observe\study us. It follows that God would have created them as well if they did exist. Creationism: I have never embraced the pure definition as it seems quite primitive I have to say; most old-world cultures have similar stories and they are obviously not true. But, could not the Creator of the Universe create "Adam" and "Eve" if He chose to? Of course He could-- he made the bloody universe! ;)

In regards to the Bible I am 98% a literalist-- the miracles, the plagues, the prophecies, the Resurrection, the promise of Revelations. Why then do I isolate my criticism to Creationism solely? I do not know. It appears to me that science and mathematics have shed light upon the depths of our origins and we are updating our understanding of Life. This does not take away from Faith but, IMO, builds stronger belief by adding one more massive feat performed by God for his creations, us.

Thanks, Joe, for the congrats on the "Featured Poster"; it was quite a suprise and a wonderful honor to receive it.

Best Regards,
Matty

First off, I am a Fundamentalist Christian... which means I believe in the Bible as being literally true. It also means that I believe the universe is in existence because of a Divine Creator.

Creationism - an omnipotent and omniscient deity (GOD) created the world as written in the Bible; Genesis 1.

Evolution - humans evolved from lower life forms and turned into what they are today according to a theory made from a single man named Charles Darwin.

The Big Bang - the world was created by a cosmic explosion that pushed matter into all different directions and somehow created the universe.

The two most widely accepted theories are Creationism and Evolution. The problem with certain people is that they NEED proof to believe in something... such as creationism. Evolution is considered "naturalistic" while Creationism is considered "supernatural." But at the same time, evolution and creationism are both faith-based. Evolution has not been proved, so why believe it? The Big Bang has not been proved either, so why believe it? Creationism, however, is obviously proved. Look at the world around you. Look at the mountains, the sky, the clouds, the sun, the life that was given to you. Why try to find answers? Why ask questions? When the answer is clear, it's right in front of your eyes. If you are looking for scientifically proven answers, it is hopeless. Evolution, the Big Bang, and even Creationism will never be proven by scientists. So we have a choice; to believe in a Powerful God who created the world in 7 days and is still holding it all together, or to follow the belief of men who made up "scientific explanations" hundreds of years ago to challenge the belief that has so long been kept by humans since the beginning of time.

God created the world in 6 days; not 7. God rested on the 7th day. This is Fact based on faith!

There was a point in time when folks believed that the world was flat. The world was as round as it was back then as it is now.

Why do people have to "understand" stuff. A little faith goes a long way. Just gotta believe, right? ... but no matter how much I believe, my code still contains bugs. ;)

The two most widely accepted theories are Creationism and Evolution. The problem with certain people is that they NEED proof to believe in something... such as creationism. Evolution is considered "naturalistic" while Creationism is considered "supernatural." But at the same time, evolution and creationism are both faith-based. Evolution has not been proved, so why believe it? The Big Bang has not been proved either, so why believe it? Creationism, however, is obviously proved. Look at the world around you. Look at the mountains, the sky, the clouds, the sun, the life that was given to you. Why try to find answers? Why ask questions? When the answer is clear, it's right in front of your eyes. If you are looking for scientifically proven answers, it is hopeless. Evolution, the Big Bang, and even Creationism will never be proven by scientists. So we have a choice; to believe in a Powerful God who created the world in 7 days and is still holding it all together, or to follow the belief of men who made up "scientific explanations" hundreds of years ago to challenge the belief that has so long been kept by humans since the beginning of time.

Yes, this is my opinion, too. The scientist in the article says something about "Gensis and evolution theories conflicting", and I say that's absolutely true. However, the Bible never explains exactly how God created the creatures, but that is rather irrelvant in the bigger picture. The goal of the Gensis was not a scientific summary of the beginning of the Earth, which is probably why many scientists reject the theory.

God created the world in 6 days; not 7. God rested on the 7th day. This is Fact based on faith!

It's still debated however, what "day" was defined as when the thing was written. Especially considering that God had to create a physical day first, it's rather difficult to gauge how long it actually took.

Yes. It's debated because it's hard to understand. Just like the folks who had a hard time understanding that the world was not flat. It must have taken a whole lot of faith to believe that the ships going west were not going to fall off the edge. Of course, now we know better.

As time goes on, more gets revealed. These days, almost everyone knows that the world is not flat. Perhaps some day, we will get a definitive answer. In the meantime, I prefer to believe all was created in six literal days - until proven otherwise.

First off, Darwin’s theory of evolution is just that- a theory. But do any of you know what a theory is? A theory is a scientific hypothesis that has been tested thousands of times, and has been proven true every single time. Evolution is fact, and whoever denies this is a blind fool.

As for the bible, it is not literal... and not intended to be. There are several things throughout the bible that have been proven false (the age of the earth, for example). The Bible is simply a tool in which the ideas of Christianity are told through parables. Since we know there is some deceit in the Bible, the entire book is subject to deception and therefore we can't trust any of it.

Yes I realized I put 7 days instead of 6. I tried to edit it later, but ran out of time.

First off, Darwin’s theory of evolution is just that- a theory. But do any of you know what a theory is? A theory is a scientific hypothesis that has been tested thousands of times, and has been proven true every single time. Evolution is fact, and whoever denies this is a blind fool.

As for the bible, it is not literal... and not intended to be. There are several things throughout the bible that have been proven false (the age of the earth, for example). The Bible is simply a tool in which the ideas of Christianity are told through parables. Since we know there is some deceit in the Bible, the entire book is subject to deception and therefore we can't trust any of it.

You are wrong my friend.

Evolution has NOT been proven true as fact. It was a theory that came from one man's head, Charles Darwin. But how can you deny something that has been proven since the beginning?

Tell me this, where is there "deceit in the Bible," if you can tell me or show me a scripture that you believe is "deceitful" then please show. Otherwise don't talk unless you have something to back yourself up.

Evolution has NOT been proven true as fact. It was a theory that came from one man's head, Charles Darwin. But how can you deny something that has been proven since the beginning?
.

Actually, It is scientific FACT. All theories are pretty much fact, and almost every scientist will tell you that evolution is true. Even this man believes so. The entire genome project and DNA among many other things prove evolution. I have no time to explain it to a closed minded fool like you.. why don't you do a little research before you just start bashing scientific theories?

As for the bible, there are tons of lies throughout it. Have you even read it? As I mentioned before, the bible says the earth is about 6000 years old. However, it is actually about 4.5 BILLION years old. Scientists have discovered this through carbon dating and many other processes... And there are many more lies than this. Simply google it, and you will see.

As for the bible, there are tons of lies throughout it. Have you even read it? As I mentioned before, the bible says the earth is about 6000 years old. However, it is actually about 4.5 BILLION years old. Scientists have discovered this through carbon dating and many other processes... And there are many more lies than this. Simply google it, and you will see.

Yes, I have read it once all the way through, and still read it. But once again, show me a scripture that has a "lie" in it.
And by the way:
Scientists and archaeologists both agree that the Bible is historically correct. They actually use it as a history book at times. Although it is not a science book, it is still true.

Theories do not = fact.
They are simply a hypothesis of what could have happened if this or that took place.

Theories are not fact, true. But they have been proven true from every scientific experiment so far. The theory of evolution has yet to fail a scientific test, and has never come into conflict with any other scientific law/theory

How has evolution been proven true over and over? Have you any evidence of monks magically transforming into human beings? If you do, by all means...

If the bible is not intended to be litteral then neither is Ceasar Agustus's Galic Wars or Thucydides, one of the greatest of ancient Greek historians and the author of The History of the Peloponnesian War, which is the first record of a political and moral analysis of a nations war policies. Even though his works are available from just eight manuscripts, dated 900 A.D (almost 1300 years after he wrote), his works are considered to be accurate. Look at Aristotle's works, coming from a mere five manuscripts. Would you dare question the validity of these historical writers? Never! If, in contrast, you compare the number of manuscripts of The New Testament alone, there are over twenty-thousand! Second to the New Testament is the Illiad with about 640 manuscripts.
Note* Here, manuscripts are refereing to original documents.
More evidence exists proving the reliability of the Bible, than any ten works of historical literature combined.

I could go on if you would like...

Evolution has come into many different conflicts with several beliefs. That's why it is not true. If it were indeed fact, then everyone would surely believe it. Everyone believes there is H2O in the atmosphere right? Of course! Because it is completely and utterly true.

I have attached a report I did on this subject... read it, and then tell me what flaws you find.

I assure you my documentation is historically correct, though feel free to google it as you say.

First off, I want to say that I will not partake in this discussion, as it will only breed a flame war. However, I will point out some fallacies brought out on both sides.

(going in chronological order)

Evolution - humans evolved from lower life forms and turned into what they are today according to a theory made from a single man named Charles Darwin.

The Big Bang - the world was created by a cosmic explosion that pushed matter into all different directions and somehow created the universe.
...
Creationism, however, is obviously proved. Look at the world around you. Look at the mountains, the sky, the clouds, the sun, the life that was given to you. Why try to find answers? Why ask questions? When the answer is clear, it's right in front of your eyes. If you are looking for scientifically proven answers, it is hopeless. Evolution, the Big Bang, and even Creationism will never be proven by scientists.

Evolution- it was proposed by one man, but was based on the ideas of a vast number. It was never intended to challenge religion.

Big Bang- This is a theory that proposes how the universe came to what it is today, but it does not propose how everything came into being.

"Creationism, however, is obviously proved."

Ignorance. To build on your earlier argument, neither side can be proven.

First off, Darwin’s theory of evolution is just that- a theory. But do any of you know what a theory is? A theory is a scientific hypothesis that has been tested thousands of times, and has been proven true every single time. Evolution is fact, and whoever denies this is a blind fool.

As for the bible, it is not literal... and not intended to be. There are several things throughout the bible that have been proven false (the age of the earth, for example). The Bible is simply a tool in which the ideas of Christianity are told through parables. Since we know there is some deceit in the Bible, the entire book is subject to deception and therefore we can't trust any of it.

Again, ignorance is widespread here.

"A theory is a scientific hypothesis that has been tested thousands of times, and has been proven true every single time."

Nope, completely wrong. NO theory has been proven true in every instance. Not even gravity (look up Born-Einstein Condensate if you don't believe me). And as you said yourself, theories cannot be proven.

"As for the bible, it is not literal... and not intended to be."

How do you know, and why are you so sure? (ignorance).

" There are several things throughout the bible that have been proven false (the age of the earth, for example)."

False. The Bible never stated the age of the Earth--rather, it was something calculated from a Bishop from England during the Middle Ages.

"Since we know there is some deceit in the Bible, the entire book is subject to deception and therefore we can't trust any of it."

Full ignorance.

You are wrong my friend.

Evolution has NOT been proven true as fact. It was a theory that came from one man's head, Charles Darwin. But how can you deny something that has been proven since the beginning?

Evolution> true statement, it is a theory. However, it is not a theory of 1 man alone. And like I said earlier, neither side has been proven.

Actually, It is scientific FACT. All theories are pretty much fact,

Again, ignorance.

PLEASE, NO IGNORANCE.

haha... testing evolution can involve many scientific test that do not involve any magical monks, as you say. DNA testing.. such as the remarkable closeness in DNA among different species (Human and chimpanzee DNA is very similar, off by only 2%).. mapping the human genome.. and many other tests, simply research it yourself and you will find them.

How does the Iliad, Galic Wars, or anything you just mentioned have anything to do with the bible? And anyways, Aristotle and many others who published scientific thoughts and explanations during this period ended up publishing explanations that were in fact untrue. um, after 22,000 manuscripts don't you think some of the information may have been misinterpreted or written incorrectly or slightly exaggerated? lol...

You should probably google that one.. did you read it correctly? He was showing how the Bible is proven relevant by using those renowned books as evidence... maybe you should re-read the post.

I do not think you fully understand how to historically research a work of literature. Please, take a look at the document I've attached to see the reasearch method used when dealing with a subject like this.

I brought up the other works to compare the two; you can't prove a work one way or the other without being able to apply the same variables to another work of literature

I don't know about ya'll... but I just don't like the idea that I evolved from a monkey. But maybe that's just me!

hahaha 'Stein, how can you go around telling people they are ignorant, when you have no idea what you are talking about. Look up theory on Wikipedia, here is what it says:

"In science, a theory is a mathematical description, a logical explanation, a verified hypothesis, or a proven model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the current theory of gravitation."

Most of what I said is completely logical, but you are a damned fool.

You probably shouldn't cuss.... a moderator will report you.

But like I said, a theory is a theory.
Something that a person made up in their mind!

hahaha 'Stein, how can you go around telling people they are ignorant, when you have no idea what you are talking about. Look up theory on Wikipedia, here is what it says:

"In science, a theory is a mathematical description, a logical explanation, a verified hypothesis, or a proven model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the current theory of gravitation."

Most of what I said is completely logical, but you are a damned fool.

Assuming you read what I wrote, which part of your excerpt above goes against what I said in my post? And secondly, how does that make me "a damned fool"?

just so everyone is aware... the Bible isn't meant to be proven... that's where faith comes in.

no matter how much evidence we find, faith is always the main factor.

You probably shouldn't cuss.... a moderator will report you.

But like I said, a theory is a theory.
Something that a person made up in their mind!

Heh he's fine, I'm an old mod here and it's all cool.

Theory is a theory> Indeed, but they didn't just "make it up in their mind".

Charles Darwin did.

The Bible is meant to be proven... why else was it written?

Charles Darwin did.

I hate to break it to you, but he did not.

Natural Selection (Darwin never actually uses the word "evolution", FTW) was based upon many different observations and other essays written around those times.

If you'd like, feel free to ask and I will discuss the influences of natural selection.