Im queit new to programming, and currently taking my first year engineering at a college.
During engineering i had to take a programming course and i like it quiet a bit, so im looking at getting a degree in a programming related field.

No clue what i should transfer into next year (im willing to take up to 8 years of school):
software engineering or programming?

initially i thought programmers didnt make much over 40k a year, so the only way to achieve a paycheck of 60k+ a year (what id like to have) was only possible as a software engineer (and i already have 1st year engineering under my belt). Im also wondering what the working conditions for each job is like. I tried looking on the internet for some answers but i could never get a straight answer, so i thought i would come to the people who knew what they were talking about http://www.go4expert.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif



So my main questions are (C++ programmer Vs. software engineer...in general):

-what would the average income of a C++ programmer and software engineer be after having a degree in there specified field as well as co-op jobs along the way.

-how hard is it to get a job between the two?

-how stable are the jobs ?

any other advice would be greatly appreciated

programming and "software engineering" are the same thing. If your school is offering a "programming" curriculum that is not called software engineering and is not called computer science, while offering a "software engineering" curriculum too, then I have to say, WTF?

There is actually no such thing as "software engineering," unless you work for NASA or other fields where the cost of failure is very high.

To answer your main questions:

- The average income of anything depends on where you'll be working.
- Your ability to get a job depends on how much of a non-moron you are.
- The stability of your job depends on how much of a non-moron you are.

i don't think so, these two are totally different.
From Wikipedia :

Software engineering (SE) is the design, development, documentation and maintenance of software by applying technologies and practices from computer science, project management, engineering, application domains, interface design, digital asset management and other fields.

but in small and some medium projects which you have small teams, you sometimes work as both software engineer and programmer. (may be more).

in some medium and big projects there can be also a software architect who creates the abstract structure and programmers implement it.
for your questions:

- i think software engineer earn higher then programmers in most situations but there can be exceptions.

- for the others: depends on many things, you, them, project.. etc...

is there an average i can expect though?

grading with a degree as well as expericance....

(40k+, 60k+) ?

well actually i am from turkey, so these values change greatly...
i think you can work 40k-60k as a software engineer in turkey.
in europe you can earn way more than that, double may be.
i am not sure about USA.

40-60K is only starting salary. professionals with experience can often get a lot more than that. On the west coast (USA) you could easily get double that amount -- of course you will need it because it will cost tripple to live there

Contact your local library or unemployment office. They have books that outline salary ranges for most if not all professions.

Yes, here on the west coast (at least, between Seattle and Redmond), 75k-80k is about average for a student coming out of college with a Bachelor's.

As to the difference between programming and SE, programming is the actual task of writing code. SE encompasses a whole process of writing, maintaining, planning, designing, etc... for a software. Typically you can get a 2-year programming degree whereas SE is often a 4-year program (2-year programs might exists, but would be relatively low level). There is also a difference between SE and CS, as CS tends to orient on the actual performance of various algorithms given various environments or inputs and a lot less on the process of developing a software.

oh? 60K what would that be, and per what?
If Turkish Lira per month, yah, you can get more in Europe.
If USD per month, forget it (especially as an entry level salary).

For experienced people (5-10 years), expect between 30 and 45K Euro per month (outside London, which pays more because of the extreme cost of living).
For entry level positions, 20-25K at most (I started at something like 12.5K 10 years ago).

Don't you mean per year ? 30-45K per month :eek: I'll move to Europe for that. 40-60K per year USD is about right for entry level position depending on education and location.