Decline in morals?

[zandiago]

Good day. I recently had a conversation with a few parents. We were talking about how the morals have declined since they were kids. We can see that most kids today often tend to imitate what they hear(music) and see(movies/videos). Many people say that rap music for example should be banned from the airways. I told the parents that even though they may do that, a lot of what the children practice from a moral stand-point is what they learn from home. So what are your thoughts, should the government/groups step in and allow a ban on rap music (which degrading, illicit, voilent) and could decency ever return to the way it was decades ago?

[EnderX]

So what are your thoughts, should the government/groups step in and allow a ban on rap music (which degrading, illicit, voilent) and could decency ever return to the way it was decades ago?

No. While I personally find rap 'music' to be degrading and morally repugnant, allowing the government (in the form of any government agency) to step in and ban it would give the wrong message, especially should the ban be successful. Were this the case, a massive blow would have been given to true free speech, and the politicoes behind the ban would have an extra precedent should they choose to attempt a ban of some other form of speech...say, political dialog that shows them in a negative light.

[Ancient Dragon]

ban rap music ? No, just clean it up, and it should be the music industry, not the government, that does it. Afterall TV stations wouldn't show Elvis below the waste either because of his lewd shaking of the legs :) In 20 or so years from now today's rap music might be seen in the same light as we now view Elvis's behavior -- complete laughter.

[invisal]

Rap is just one genre of the music; some rap songs are very meaningful and very educated.

[scru]

Banning all rap music isn't at all a solution. It's also not fair to ban just rap music. Let's not pretend that rap music is the only genre with something wrong with it.

And by supporting such a ban, you are advocating that all rap songs are bad, when this is simply not the case. There are some rap/hip hop artists out there who really do not go down this road.

And let's be real, blaming music or T.V. or other types of mainstream media for a break down of morals in society is lazy. I'm not saying that they may not have anything to do with it, but when has it stopped being parents' responsibility to teach the kids right from wrong? When did it become the media's responsibility?

In my opinion, if a parent neglects the opportunity to instill in their kids' minds the way they want them to live, they have no right to complain when somebody else puts their own morals in there.

[Jishnu]

I'm not saying that they may not have anything to do with it, but when has it stopped being parents' responsibility to teach the kids right from wrong? When did it become the media's responsibility?

In my opinion, if a parent neglects the opportunity to instill in their kids' minds the way they want them to live, they have no right to complain when somebody else puts their own morals in there.

Exactly my words. scru, you are just stealing my thoughts ;). If parents want to bring up their children in a better way, they can, even now.

[GrimJack]

Every generation thinks the up and coming generation is declining in morals.

I like rap because it is poetry that rhymes and rhythm - it ain't Shakespeare but it ain't Rod McKuen either.

[twomers]

>> Every generation thinks the up and coming generation is declining in morals.
Precisely.
And I don't think that it's really a moral issue. This current generation probably has more exposure to everything than any other previous generation -- with the internet, tv, etc. Sure not all of these things are morally uplifting nor do they set a good example but it's an exposure that previous generatia have not experienced. There's no doubt that the more death, violence, killing, etc that you see on TV or the net the more passive you become to it.
And in relation to progressing generations - each new generation experiences something that others haven't experienced. You can't really do justice to a comparison between two (or any number), without factoring in or out the exposures the kids of that generation have faced.
And yes, this does bring it back to the parents. Kids are really susceptible to ideas, thoughts. They are suggestive and will replicate what others do. This is one method in which they learn - does a parent have to show a kid that you turn a steering wheel to turn a car? By the same token they will replicate what they see on TV, somewhat. I'm not saying that we're going to have to wear Kevlar now, but... I guess it does no harm to be conscious of it.

[Isonis]

I think, it all falls down to their parents and their parents education.

[scru]

This is one method in which they learn - does a parent have to show a kid that you turn a steering wheel to turn a car? By the same token they will replicate what they see on TV, somewhat.

So they leave it as granted and let somebody else tell their kid that they have to stomp the clutch.

Brilliant.

It's a parent's job to sit with their kids and tell them what they see on T.V. is wrong (whenever they see their child watching something that is indeed wrong). If a parent does this with his/her child, that child will not replicate what he sees on T.V. (provided that the child was raised to listen to his/her parents).

[twomers]

>> So they leave it as granted and let somebody else tell their kid that they have to stomp the clutch.

And hope that someone mentions the break too!

[briansmall]

So they leave it as granted and let somebody else tell their kid that they have to stomp the clutch.

Brilliant.

It's a parent's job to sit with their kids and tell them what they see on T.V. is wrong (whenever they see their child watching something that is indeed wrong). If a parent does this with his/her child, that child will not replicate what he sees on T.V. (provided that the child was raised to listen to his/her parents).

Blaming the parents is lazy as well. Parents can only do so much. 50 years ago parents and school comprised the majority of what kids were influenced by, but in a given family there were still good and bad kids, regardless of how the parents felt about their behavior. The thing is, kids had a lot less input .. they could look around and emulate the good kids or the bad kids they saw, but that was about it. Whatever they could dream up from the input they had, they could do regardless of the parents input.

I think it's hugely irrelevant to factor the parents in today.

Today, parents comprise only a small part of the input that kids have. They see every type of behavior imaginable acted out in front of them, everywhere. TV, movies, magazines, games, newspapers, radio, you name it. The entire world is on display. Every deviant behavior is broadcast and published in every corner. Every day they are inundated with thousands of messages about how to act, what to wear, what phone to purchase, why they should eat McDonalds, what is popular, what is cool, what is nasty, what is the new thing, .. their curiousity and imagination have absolutely no boundaries.

Sure, a parent can try to isolate the child, limit tv, talk about what the kid sees, and hope they can elicit from the child what he or she has encountered during the day and talk about it. But make a few mistakes and the child quickly closes off. What parents aren't overwhelmed by "the way things are" today? My hat's off to them. But the rest of us are scratching our heads and saying ... what the hell happened ... it happened so fast.

And yes, we try to influence them, talk to them, reason with them etc, but ... kids are individuals, and they make choices based on what appeals to them. A parents logic, discipline and reason isn't always what they want.

Try to limit the childs input too much and you create a freakish environment.

In fact, the world has simply become a much scarier place than it was in times past, because we now know of every little horrible thing that is happening everywhere on earth, and it's presented in such a way as to make it feel very "immediate". There is no escape.

Kids are responding to that.

[Ultimately this has all come about, in my opinion, due to "progress (read profit) without accountability". Humans are interested in short term gains and immediate rewards than in the the implications of their actions for future generations. As we have increased in populace, competition has spiraled and techniques for screwing the other guy (or selling him something he doesn't need) have become the all pervasive mode of doing business.]

As population increases, so does competition, not only for material rewards, but for recognition. Children are competing for individuality. And it's becoming increasingly hard to demonstrate. No wonder they act out more today than we did 50 years ago.

Stop looking for "someone" to blame. That's a huge part of the problem, right there. No one and no one thing is to blame, it just happened. Rather, look for the larger pattern; what is really going on, what are the pressures, what are the actions and repercussions. There are perhaps thousands of components, not just rap, not just parents, not just ... well, anything.

People generally want their answers just like they want their food. Fast.

Life is not simple. All things and conditions have evolved from an ever growing complexity. It takes some work to see it, not one liners.

It's easy to blame. It's not so easy to see.

[twomers]

Anyone seen The Village?

[sneekula]

@briansmall: Well thought out!

One subject that does not fit one liners. Darn, and I like those.

[scru]

Nobody is looking for anyone to blame. It just irritates (yes, burns/stings/scratches my bum) me that there are so many parents today who aren't doing their jobs and still get so confused when their kids don't turn out the way they want them to. Like what the hell do they expect?

While parents do comprise a small part of a child's input, do you choose not see that they are potentially the most important and influential (again, depends on how the child was raised)?

I say before parents pass blame they need to take a good look at themselves.

I would also like to correct you on something you said (life is not simple). Sir, life is very simple if you want it to be. In fact, it can be as black and white as a zebra if that's what you really want. It's left up to the individual man whether he wants to overcomplicate a simple problem and throw his hands up in despair, or breeze off a problem that requires more efficiency in its dealing. Totally different subject alogether.

[briansmall]

Nobody is looking for anyone to blame. It just irritates (yes, burns/stings/scratches my bum) me that there are so many parents today who aren't doing their jobs and still get so confused when their kids don't turn out the way they want them to. Like what the hell do they expect?

While parents do comprise a small part of a child's input, do you choose not see that they are potentially the most important and influential (again, depends on how the child was raised)?

I say before parents pass blame they need to take a good look at themselves.

I would also like to correct you on something you said (life is not simple). Sir, life is very simple if you want it to be. In fact, it can be as black and white as a zebra if that's what you really want. It's left up to the individual man whether he wants to overcomplicate a simple problem and throw his hands up in despair, or breeze off a problem that requires more efficiency in its dealing. Totally different subject alogether.

Do you really care to get in to this?

If so, do you have children? If so, how many and how old?
You can't speak for everybody (Nobody is looking for anyone to blame) .. I see it all over the posts. Any "one" or any "thing" .. it's the same.. It's a "place" to assign fault.

I have no problem with suggesting that parents take a good look at themselves. But frankly, how many of them have the skills to really do so? You can point out that they are making mistakes all you want, but you can't realistically expect them to fix what's wrong.

You forget that parents are people too. There are all types, and there always have been. What's more there have always been kids who did not go along with their parents and kids who did, on both sides of the "good / bad" fence.

If you think life is simple and black and white, I submit that you live in an entirely different world than do I, or than do most of the parents you think should "take a good look at themselves".

I thought life was black and white 30 years ago. In fact, I clearly remember arguing with my parents about the "black and white" issue. I thought it was, they disagreed. As it turns out, they were right, insofar as the reality of life in a complex social situation is concerned.

Now I see that no matter how simple it may be for you or me to dissect a given situation, it's not that simple for many, if not most people. That is because humans are complex, not simple. It's not that there isn't a logical path you can take to find the true/false, good/bad nature of any given thing or situation, the complexity stems (in part) from the separate natures of emotion and reason, and from our very natural tendency to rebel when being told how to act or think, (regardless of the black or white nature of it.)

There are some very basic black and white rules we can live by. But most behavior does not easily fit into one category or the other, and is difficult for many people to pick behavior and situations apart into their constituent parts. It all happens very quickly, and we have other things pressing.

If we didn't learn that skillset (being able to see the black and white of any given situation) early on, we aren't going to learn it befor the first child encounters situations we did not anticipate. And the second one will find new ways to tax our capacity. If we are lucky, and have our hearts in the right place, that which our heads lack our hearts can make up for. That'd be great if it ended with us, the parents.

But children are not like dogs. A good dog reflects its master, as does a bad dog. that's almost always true. Dogs do not make decisions, and are emotionally bound only to one thing.. their master/s. Children are not so simple and they respond to the entire world that they perceive, regardless of their parents. Their parents can be helpful, but the kid is an individual making his/her own choices from a very early age.

Understating the problem simply leaves you failing to see a larger reality.

[Jishnu]

Yes, humans are complex. Logic alone can not define their behaviour. It is something beyond that -- Psychology, which is even more complex. There are too many variables and so, too many assumptions have to be made that often turn out to be wrong.

[Qwazil]

only 50% of rap is as bad as you say it is and alot of it is quite meaningful and educated like invisal says. I dont really like rap but sometimes i come across a really good song from a quite unknown artist with a good message and maybe a message against the kind of rap that you are talking about.

Some rap music uses horrible imagery and disgusting themes to get a message that in the end is saying something about society and how there is something wrong with it (depends on the song)

Banning it is just going to cause a ton of underground artists to write songs about the banning of rap music and saying stuff like *F*** the police and down with the the government and other revolutionary and anarchist stuffz~.

Teach your kids morals~? and then they should know that what they are listening to is bad? i dont know..give them a taste of your backhand if they dont do what you want *nods*

[scru]

Anybody ever listened Lupe Fiasco?

Twomers I don't really see your point with the Village

[scru]

Psychology, which is even more complex.

Psychology is the easiest damn subject available for study at most schools. Everybody knows that.

[Jishnu]

That is indeed funny. If that is so, every school going kid is a psychologist or a psychriatist ;)

And you could have edited your first post. Try avoiding multi-posting. You can modify your post until the next 30 minutes. Whereas, the time difference between your two posts is 2 minutes...

[Qwazil]

Psychology is the easiest damn subject available for study at most schools. Everybody knows that.

Lol~

[scru]

That is indeed funny. If that is so, every school going kid is a psychologist or a psychriatist ;)

By schools, I didn't mean elementary, or even high schools. I meant college. I mean God, pyschology isn't available at Elementary school, is it?

But see, that's what happens when you leave things as granted.

[Ancient Dragon]

Psychology is the easiest damn subject available for study at most schools. Everybody knows that.

Yes it probably is at the undergraduate level. Like learning mathametics, most people can't learn calculus without first learning how to add, subtract, multiply and divide two numbers. I suspect (hope) there is a lot more to phychology than what you get in phyc 101 class.

As for the parents problem -- many kids are bad like they are because the parents just don't give a rats ass what they do. The parents are worse then the kids -- spaced out on drugs, alcohol, or both. Many women today are little more than baby factories. Being a black child is very difficult in America because of all the drugs and violance in black communities. And rap music, whether good or bad, expresses those problems.

[twomers]

>> Twomers I don't really see your point with the Village
Have you seen it? SPOILER (copy link target).

>> Twomers I don't really see your point with the Village
Have you seen it? SPOILER (copy link target).

Yeah, The Village was a nice lil film with a decent storyline, too bad it got sucky reviews. I guess the people that went to see it were expecting a gore fest and were left dazzled by the unorthodox finale.

If you separate that film from the horror genre it's a damn good movie and it explores complex ideas in a dystopian society in a way that has not really been done before.

[Ancient Dragon]

that link doesn't work

http://the%20whole%20reason%20why%20they%20made%20the%20village%20was%20to%20get%20away%20from%20society,%20right/?%20To%20create%20their%20own%20perfect%20world%20free%20from%20the%20real%20world.%20Free%20from%20all%20the%20bad%20stuff%20they%20experienced.com

>that link doesn't work
You have to click on the REPLY W/QUOTE button to find out what the message is.

[scru]

Yes Twomers. And it sort of worked, didn't it? I mean, sure, they were a weird, possibly utterly crazy people, but they had the general idea :P

[twomers]

>> that link doesn't work
Yeah. There wasn't any spoiler tag so I had to improvise.