Race and Intelligence

[joshSCH]

Yes, another controversial thread by me :)

First of all, Let me just say that I am NOT racist, and that this thread is dedicated to the theory that there are genetic differences among the different human races.

Don't be an ignorant fool and simply post 'oh this is bull!!'. It is scientifically plausible. Think about it: In the past, geography has been a major obstacle for humanity. Based on evolution and modern Darwinism, it is possible that homo sapiens gradually evolved, but slowly spread out across the globe. So, at one point all homo sapiens were genetically similar. However, as humans adapted to their specific regions (The white people in Europe, the blacks in Africa, the asians in Asia), we have grown genetically apart due to microevolution. We adapted differently because the environments in each of those continents was drastically different. Over time, these genetic variations and microevolution created huge differences among the races of humanity.

Analogy? Such a thing has happened to many other species of animals. The Canis familaris. Today, the species dog is extremely diverse. There are some dogs, such as the german shepperd, that are extremely intelligent. There are some dogs, such as the greyhound, that are extremely fast. Dogs come in all shapes and sizes.. some are more intelligent than others.. and some are also more athletic than others. I propose a similar situation has happened to the human race.

Okay, genetic differences in race. Sounds stupid? What if I told you that very respectable scientists around the world are slowly coming to this conclusion. Do you know who James Watson is? Him and Crick discovered the structure of DNA, and he is one of the most renowned scientists of the modern World. He believes that there are genetic differences among the races of humanity: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2677098.ece

There are many more scientists who back-up Watson, but I know most people are psychologically blocking such a theory. We grew up believing that all men were created equal, and recently it has been burned into our brains by the government and educational system. But.. what if they are wrong? What if all men were not created equal? I ask this question purely as a skepticist. We need people to question the authorities.. it is what makes democracy so great.

Anyway, I have done research and my results are the following:
Black people have an average IQ score of 85 as opposed to whites averaging 100, and Asians average 107. These differences do not appear to be based on environmental factors either:
"Race differences show up by 3 years of age, even after matching on maternal education and other variables," said Rushton. "Therefore they cannot be due to poor education since this has not yet begun to exert an effect."
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/node/7669
http://serc.carleton.edu/introgeo/earthhistory/humanrace.html
Prior to 1973, when the AAMR changed the definition of mental retardation, 45% of all black Americans were officially classified as retarded.

Also, I have found that crimes in America are mostly committed by African-Americans. Black people have the highest percent of incarcerated individuals, and I have found statistics that say there are more black people in prison than in college. In regards to education, black people score poorer on standardized test scores than other races, and have a higher dropout rate.

What do these statistics indicate? That black people are inherently bad? NO. The AVERAGE black person is less intelligent than the AVERAGE white person. This does not indicate that ALL blacks behave this way. These are just statistics.

So.. what is the point of all this? Basically, I just wanted to present data indicating that all men are NOT created equal. We are not equals. What we have been taught is in fact wrong. It is highly probable that there are genetic differences among human races. This can explain many of the statistics that I have posted.. and why there is a majority of white people in professions such as the medical field, business, and why our political leaders are white. It can also explain why the majority or athletes are black.

Why? Why are there differences? How can you explain this if you are a Christian? Why would god 'create' individuals with less intelligence than others? Why would god design seemingly superior/inferior races? Seems to me that your god is a racist.. either that or god does not exist.

*Disclaimer* This is just a theory that seems to fit the evidence and statistics I posted. Do not label me a hick/racist/redneck. I am in fact a college student who scored in the 95th percentile on the SAT, was ranked at the top of my class, and who is currently at the top of my engineering class... and my IQ is a 135.

[Ancient Dragon]

*Disclaimer* This is just a theory that seems to fit the evidence and statistics I posted. Do not label me a hick/racist/redneck. I am in fact a college student who scored in the 95th percentile on the SAT, was ranked at the top of my class, and who is currently at the top of my engineering class... and my IQ is a 135.

All that shows is that you are an smart and educated hick/racist/redneck. Intelligence is no excuse for racism nor does it prevent racism.

[Infarction]

*Disclaimer* This is just a theory that seems to fit the evidence and statistics I posted. Do not label me a hick/racist/redneck. I am in fact a college student who scored in the 95th percentile on the SAT, was ranked at the top of my class, and who is currently at the top of my engineering class... and my IQ is a 135.

All that shows is that you are an smart and educated hick/racist/redneck. Intelligence is no excuse for racism nor does it prevent racism.

++
That paragraph was a blemish on the post.

Anyway, I have done research and my results are the following:
Black people have an average IQ score of 85 as opposed to whites averaging 100, and Asians average 107. These differences do not appear to be based on environmental factors either:
"Race differences show up by 3 years of age, even after matching on maternal education and other variables," said Rushton. "Therefore they cannot be due to poor education since this has not yet begun to exert an effect."
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/node/7669
http://serc.carleton.edu/introgeo/earthhistory/humanrace.html
Prior to 1973, when the AAMR changed the definition of mental retardation, 45% of all black Americans were officially classified as retarded.

Using the IQ of 3 year olds seems a little, well, meaningless. I'm curious as to how they matched the "maternal education and other variables" and what the other variables were.

Also, I have found that crimes in America are mostly committed by African-Americans. Black people have the highest percent of incarcerated individuals, and I have found statistics that say there are more black people in prison than in college. In regards to education, black people score poorer on standardized test scores than other races, and have a higher dropout rate.

I believe this to be primarily due to differences in economic background. When someone comes from a relatively poor family (the African American population went from slavery to poverty, IMHO, and so they've really had to start from the bottom of the ladder), there is a greater correlation with resorting to crime to make ends meet. There is also a decreased potential educationally, such as not being able to afford the same educational institutions or assistances (e.g. tutors). Furthermore, correlating crime and intelligence is not fair. There are many smart people who also participate in crime.

This can explain many of the statistics that I have posted.. and why there is a majority of white people in professions such as the medical field, business, and why our political leaders are white. It can also explain why the majority or athletes are black.

That again is socio-economic background. Reaching high positions in the medical, business or political fields requires a certain level of education and resources (networking is becoming extremely important). I won't argue that Africans (and their descendants) seem to be naturally gifted at sports, but that doesn't relate to intelligence either. There is also a psychological wall, especially in the case of politics. The political wall is a tougher one to get past, as it requires you to overcome both your peers and the public.

[joshSCH]

++
That paragraph was a blemish on the post.

Using the IQ of 3 year olds seems a little, well, meaningless. I'm curious as to how they matched the "maternal education and other variables" and what the other variables were.

I believe this to be primarily due to differences in economic background. When someone comes from a relatively poor family (the African American population went from slavery to poverty, IMHO, and so they've really had to start from the bottom of the ladder), there is a greater correlation with resorting to crime to make ends meet. There is also a decreased potential educationally, such as not being able to afford the same educational institutions or assistances (e.g. tutors). Furthermore, correlating crime and intelligence is not fair. There are many smart people who also participate in crime.

That again is socio-economic background. Reaching high positions in the medical, business or political fields requires a certain level of education and resources (networking is becoming extremely important). I won't argue that Africans (and their descendants) seem to be naturally gifted at sports, but that doesn't relate to intelligence either. There is also a psychological wall, especially in the case of politics. The political wall is a tougher one to get past, as it requires you to overcome both your peers and the public.

Finally someone who doesn't simply reject my post as stupid and racist.
Infarction- Although I agree with you completely about the economic standpoint of African-Americans, I still believe that there must be some genetic differences. The fact of the matter is that the African-American culture does not value education. They psychologically look for what they are good at.. sports.. which involves athletic ability. They typically do worse than white people in education, and so they psychologically tell themselves that education is not important.

But also, look at our different cultures from a geographical point-of-view. Look at the state of Europe, Asia, and Africa. Prior to any outside involvement, it was obvious that Europe was far more advanced than Africa. The Europeans traveled to Africa b/c of their advanced technology. They were able to successfully enslave and overpower the Africans b/c of their intellectual and technological superiority. Even today, Africa is far below the levels of intelligence that primarily white societies have.

[Ancient Dragon]

Oct 18, 2007

LONDON, England (CNN) -- A British museum has canceled a lecture by Dr. James Watson, co-discoverer of the DNA double helix, after he claimed black people are less intelligent than whites in a recent newspaper interview.

James Watson won the 1962 Nobel prize for discovering the structure of DNA.

Watson, who won the 1962 Nobel prize for his part in discovering the structure of DNA, provoked a storm of criticism after his comments were published in the Sunday Times.

The eminent biologist told the British newspaper he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours -- whereas all the testing says not really."

Watson, 79, had been due to give a lecture at London's Science Museum on Friday but the museum canceled his appearance, saying his comments had "gone beyond the point of acceptable debate."

The American professor's words have been roundly condemned as "racist," with fellow scientists dismissing his claims as "genetic nonsense."

So much for your expert's opinion! as well as your unsupported claim that "There are many more scientists who back-up Watson".

[Sturm]

>So much for your expert's opinion! as well as your unsupported claim that "There are many more scientists who back-up Watson".

Your arguments are surprisingly weak and inane. You condemn Josh as racist, yet don't give a reason. You use one the statement "with fellow scientists dismissing his claims as 'genetic nonsense.'" to somehow add legitimacy to your claim. You apparently didn't read all of Josh's post. Especially this sentence:

Don't be an ignorant fool and simply post 'oh this is bull!!'.

Infarction on the other, actually answered intelligently. Maybe you should PM him for some pointers.

[Ancient Dragon]

>> You condemn Josh as racist, yet don't give a reason.
If you don't know the reason then your intelligence is a lot lower than I thought it was. It doesn't take intelligence to see recism when its glaring me right in the face. Josh seems to be a member of some white supremist group and believes he knows it all because he has an IQ of 135. I now understand his obnixious behavior in other threads.

[Sturm]

>If you don't know the reason then your intelligence is a lot lower than I thought it was.

I don't see in anything in his post that I would classify as racist. Do you consider the quote below racist?

>The AVERAGE black person is less intelligent than the AVERAGE white person.

[Ancient Dragon]

>>Do you consider the quote below racist?
Yes I do.

and this statement too
>>They [blacks] typically do worse than white people in education, and so they psychologically tell themselves that education is not important

The above also applies to the differences between males and females -- I heard on the talk radio just the other day that women are more successful in college then men, there are more women graduates and their GPA is higher. So does that mean men have a lower IQ than women or could the differences be for other factors ? My uneducated guess is other factors.

[joshSCH]

>>Do you consider the quote below racist?
Yes I do.

and this statement too
>>They [blacks] typically do worse than white people in education, and so they psychologically tell themselves that education is not important

Well then you need to ask yourself what racism is. Simply generalizing and using one person to represent a race (the average person) is statistical analysis. So I guess you dislike logic and statistics...

The above also applies to the differences between males and females -- I heard on the talk radio just the other day that women are more successful in college then men, there are more women graduates and their GPA is higher. So does that mean men have a lower IQ than women or could the differences be for other factors ? My uneducated guess is other factors.

hahaa.. that is completely different. Women are more successful than men in college in what major? I can guarantee that this is not the case in engineering. Besides, for you to make any claim like that you need EVIDENCE. Also, there is statistical evidence that the average man's iq is the same as the average woman's.

[blud]

I won't really make a post in this thread on the subject, but I will say that I don't think Josh is a racist, more of just an un-educated man mis-representing facts.

And Josh, an IQ of 135 is not really that impressive, so try not to gloat. Expecially when I'm around people that are 150+ every single day.

[Ancient Dragon]

So I guess you dislike logic and statistics...
.

No, but there is a place for everything. For example I can prove statically that women become pregnant when the moon rises. I suppose it is true that that is time time of day that women normally become pregnant but the moon is not the cause of pregnancy. We can make statistics tell anything we want. I could probably also prove statistically that your intelligence is in the lowest 10% of most men -- if I choose the sample of 100 men whose IQ is 135 or above and claim that sample is a statistical representation of all men in the world.

This well-known saying is part of a phrase attributed to Benjamin Disraeli and popularized in the U.S. by Mark Twain: There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics

[Dani]

I am just going to step in and make sure that this thread does not turn into a flame war. If kept at an intelligent level, it can be an interesting discussion of sorts.

I don't agree at all with the statement that because black people typically do worse than white people in education then psychologically they tell themselves education isn't important. Completely ignoring the first half of that statement, where is your proof of what other people are thinking?

Secondly ... to respond to AD's latest post, women are more successful in college than men simply because women mature faster. In our late teens/early twenties, we have our heads on straighter and care more about our studies and schoolwork than 19 year old guys, who typically want to party and aren't spending all their time thinking ahead about the future and how their school grade affects future careers. Our male counterparts simply settle themselves down a few years later when grad school comes around, at which time the roles get reversed and it's the guys who go on to grad school to obtain professional degrees (or at least, it's my opinion that there are more male professionals than there are women professionals). All just my own hypothesis, mind you.

[joshSCH]

I won't really make a post in this thread on the subject, but I will say that I don't think Josh is a racist, more of just an un-educated man mis-representing facts.

And Josh, an IQ of 135 is not really that impressive, so try not to gloat. Expecially when I'm around people that are 150+ every single day.

hahaha.. oh blud, you crack me up. The point of my putting that damn disclaimer was so that people wouldn't call me '..an un-educated..'. I was not 'gloating' at all. But seriously, if you wish to attack me.. why not actually attack my post? Come back when you can actually debate the material at hand :P

[Ancient Dragon]

hahaha.. oh blud, you crack me up. The point of my putting that damn disclaimer was so that people wouldn't call me '..an un-educated..'. I was not 'gloating' at all. But seriously, if you wish to attack me.. why not actually attack my post? Come back when you can actually debate the material at hand :P

That was actually the reason for my original post -- you were gloating. Maybe you didn't realize it, but that's the way you came across to me and apparently at least one other person. Your original post would have been better had you not posted that disclaimer.

[blud]

Because it's not my area of expertise. Judging others intelligence is a hobby of mine though.

[joshSCH]

No, but there is a place for everything. For example I can prove statically that women become pregnant when the moon rises. I suppose it is true that that is time time of day that women normally become pregnant but the moon is not the cause of pregnancy. We can make statistics tell anything we want. I could probably also prove statistically that your intelligence is in the lowest 10% of most men -- if I choose the sample of 100 men whose IQ is 135 or above and claim that sample is a statistical representation of all men in the world.

Okay, but what happens when the sample size approaches the population of the Earth? Would those statistics not be accurate? I agree that stats have a varying degree of accuracy... but, you cannot simply say that all stats are false. Also the philosophical idea of necessary connection does logically come into play..

Before everyone gets off-topic.. Remember that this thread is devoted to the idea of some sort of connection with intelligence and race. Environmental factors obviously play a major role in society, but recent scientific studies indicate that perhaps there is some sort of genetic difference among the different human races.

Like I said in my original post.. such a thing has happened to dogs, why couldn't it happen to humans?

[joshSCH]

That was actually the reason for my original post -- you were gloating. Maybe you didn't realize it, but that's the way you came across to me and apparently at least one other person. Your original post would have been better had you not posted that disclaimer.

Well I did not intend that.. Could you or another moderator clip out my 'disclaimer'?

[Infarction]

Because it's not my area of expertise. Judging others intelligence is a hobby of mine though.

how do race or "other variables" affect your results? :D

I don't agree at all with the statement that because black people typically do worse than white people in education then psychologically they tell themselves education isn't important. Completely ignoring the first half of that statement, where is your proof of what other people are thinking?

I agree. Just because they perform at a lower level doesn't mean that they discount the value of education. And like I mentioned before, it can be difficult for them just to level the playing field; that certainly affects their performance.

Secondly ... to respond to AD's latest post, women are more successful in college than men simply because women mature faster. In our late teens/early twenties, we have our heads on straighter and care more about our studies and schoolwork than 19 year old guys, who typically want to party and aren't spending all their time thinking ahead about the future and how their school grade affects future careers. Our male counterparts simply settle themselves down a few years later when grad school comes around, at which time the roles get reversed and it's the guys who go on to grad school to obtain professional degrees (or at least, it's my opinion that there are more male professionals than there are women professionals). All just my own hypothesis, mind you.

Interesting perspective. I hadn't thought about the different rates at which men and women mature with regards to this statistic before, but your post certainly makes good sense of it. I wonder about the professional degrees though. As professional fields are traditionally male dominated, I had figured that women often had troubles coping with the environment or perhaps were disillusioned by the conditions facing them if they continued.

hahaa.. that is completely different. Women are more successful than men in college in what major? I can guarantee that this is not the case in engineering. Besides, for you to make any claim like that you need EVIDENCE. Also, there is statistical evidence that the average man's iq is the same as the average woman's.

Regardless of major, it still says something. There are men in non-engineering courses. The women I've known who have gone into engineering fields have all been quite smart and hardworking; those who've gone into non-engineering fields are often just as smart. It's also a matter of personal interest; not everyone selects a major based on the pay they get on the other end. How can you guarantee that women are less successful in engineering? What evidence? Is it because there's 4x as many men getting degrees? Maybe that's because there's 5x or 6x as many men in the program. (numbers were made up, but you get the idea).

Might as well also point out that IQ tests are not an end-all measurement of intelligence. As any test, it only can measure a certain degree of how well a person's mind has been trained according to certain patterns.

[Dani]

Interesting perspective. I hadn't thought about the different rates at which men and women mature with regards to this statistic before, but your post certainly makes good sense of it. I wonder about the professional degrees though. As professional fields are traditionally male dominated, I had figured that women often had troubles coping with the environment or perhaps were disillusioned by the conditions facing them if they continued.

That's what I'm trying to say. In the late teens/very early twenties, women are more mature in the sense that they are more considerate of how their decisions affect the future, etc, while their counterparts aren't as family or career-oriented, so to speak. A couple of years later, the guys catch up, start to consider beginning their careers or focusing on graduate school. Women, meanwhile, have already had some time to mull over the idea of settling down, and by this point are ready to get married and perhaps start a family, which influences their decisions of not getting post-graduate degrees in favor of marrying the quintessential guy a couple of years older who has already matured into someone who either went to grad school or is starting off their career ... man and women catch up to each other and the rest is traditional 1950s history :)

[Ravenous Wolf]

i am not even going to say something for if i do than i am going to get my second warning from ancient dragon for telling the exact same person exactly what i think.

on second thought. allow me to throw a spanner for Mr 135 IQ. perhaps he can fit it into his engin.

i know this guy with an IQ of 138. his is higher than yours. now i know that this proves nothing since you probably (or hopefully in order to keep you humble) know one with an even higher IQ.

but let me get to the point. this guy is at least 25% african. and although he does have some european blood another fair amount of his dna is semitic (not nescessarily jewish since semite spans a number of races).

the semites and blacks are the most discriminated groups of people on this planet. so josch even if your race are superior than at least there is one guy with african and semite blood with an IQ higher than yours.

[vegaseat]

Statistics can be full of bias. My suggestion, go out and meet some educated black folks, you will enjoy them!

[John A]

Here's what I've been observing.

- Josh is being arrogant as usual (although not necessarily racist), and bringing up a topic which will (hopefully) result in a huge flame war.
- Ravenous Wolf seems to have missed the point completely.
- Blud looks like he wants to respond to the actual topic, but he's afraid that Josh is going to beat him into the ground if he does attempt to reply.

So far, it looks like Infarction and Dani are the clear winners of this thread. Meh, that's my trolling for the night. Feel free to flame me, see y'all tomorrow.

[blud]

No, my opinion is my own, and Josh and I have already had a few intellectual battles. In my opinion, he has potential, but needs to learn social skills before he can even compete.

[joshSCH]

... so josch even if your race are superior than at least there is one guy with african and semite blood with an IQ higher than yours.

Statistics can be full of bias. My suggestion, go out and meet some educated black folks, you will enjoy them!

haha.. come on guys.. I am not saying that ALL black people have an IQ of 85 (Not that the IQ test really amounts to anything). All I am saying is that the majority of them have an IQ of 85. I'm sure there are some really intelligent black people.. I like Barack Obama, and I personally think he is very intelligent. In fact, I might be voting for him for president. I have black friends who are intelligent too.. In fact, they actually agree with me on this topic.

Also, there is a reason black people are discriminated against in America.. who are they portrayed as? Gangsters. This is what they want, though.. Many black people, for some reason, like to be tough gangsters. They think it's cool or something. The fact that black people commit more crime than any other race does not help their image either. I know, it isn't fair to judge people based on the majority and generalizations.. but it's natural and logical.

[joshSCH]

Here's what I've been observing.

- Josh is being arrogant as usual (although not necessarily racist), and bringing up a topic which will (hopefully) result in a huge flame war.
- Ravenous Wolf seems to have missed the point completely.
- Blud looks like he wants to respond to the actual topic, but he's afraid that Josh is going to beat him into the ground if he does attempt to reply.

Gaw.. How come everyone thinks I'm arrogant? :( That is just not true.. I have politely asked for a moderator to delete my 'disclaimer'. And no, I am not trying to start a flame war. I am just hoping to propose a theory which may not be well-liked, but seems rather plausible. :)

Wolf has missed the point completely, and yup.. blud probably is scared just like Narue :P

No, my opinion is my own, and Josh and I have already had a few intellectual battles. In my opinion, he has potential, but needs to learn social skills before he can even compete.

Social skills? That's rather rude.. Actually, people have said that I am an overly-aggressive debater.. but I am simply portraying my opinion.. If someone could show me that I am wrong then I would gladly concede.

[Infarction]

Also, there is a reason black people are discriminated against in America.. who are they portrayed as? Gangsters. This is what they want, though.. Many black people, for some reason, like to be tough gangsters. They think it's cool or something. The fact that black people commit more crime than any other race does not help their image either. I know, it isn't fair to judge people based on the majority and generalizations.. but it's natural and logical.

IMHO, this is quite similar to what you said earlier about the AA (African American) population telling themselves stuff. While I disagree that they've convinced themselves that education isn't important, I do think that they are the main cause of the gangsta image being portrayed as cool and even in cases an ideal. And the young impressionable minds see their pop idols behaving that way and try (somewhat successfully) to emulate such behavior. Admittedly, I cringe a little every time I see somebody (of any race) walking along the sidewalk wearing huge baggy clothes, holding their pants up with one hand and their bling in place with the other... but that's a different topic :icon_wink:

[Infarction]

Social skills? That's rather rude.. Actually, people have said that I am an overly-aggressive debater.. but I am simply portraying my opinion.. If someone could show me that I am wrong then I would gladly concede.

The common consensus, as I view it, is simply that your posts have little tact. They are very opinionated, which is fine, but they're also quite cutting and, on occasion, too personal. I portray my opinion as well, but I spend a small bit of time thinking about how it's phrased and how that might be interpreted. I recommend the practice.

And no, I'm not perfect either (hell, I suck at arguing), but I like to think that at least my posts are as inoffensive as I intend for them to be. Unless you're aiming for offensive posts...?

[joshSCH]

haha exactly.. and who does this most of the time? The African-Americans. In high school, I saw it all the time.. black people with baggy clothes low enough to see their boxers, wearing metal chains of crosses (Who knows why?), and getting into fights constantly. I seriously saw two black people fighting almost everyday at McDonald's.

Here is a short little anecdote: When I went to a private school (through 6th grade) I saw no difference in race. However, when I went to a public school in 7th grade I was exposed to the 'neighborhood kids'. Black wanna-be 'gangsters' who had the terrible reputation of getting into fights, dealing drugs, and harassing the white kids. After such an experience, it was only natural for me to be afraid.. and slightly prejudice Same thing happened throughout high school.. except in addition I noticed that I had no classes ever with black people. This was b/c I took all AP classes and they took all regular. The funny thing is.. my black friends were more prejudice against their own race than I was lol.. It's like Chris Rock says: "There's two kinds of black people..."

I've also noticed throughout my high school career that the minorities got special privileges and advantages when it came to the college application process. Affirmative Action and other government policies/funding helped primarily students of a certain race. Is this not racism? If anything, the minorities should be appalled with these special initiatives. Basically, the government is saying minority students are not good enough.. not smart enough.. not 'white enough', and thus need special treatment from the government. This is complete bull crap, and is fueling racial tensions. Colleges should not have a goal for 'racial diversity', but should instead admit the students that are best qualified. The same goes for the real world. Recently, in college football the A&M Aggies hired a white man for the position of head football coach. This enraged the african-american community b/c they did not even interview a black coach. I mean, seriously? In my opinion, the government should make it illegal for anyone to ask what someone else's race in.. on SATs, college applications, job applications, etc. This reverse-racism crap is certainly not helping matters at all.

[Ravenous Wolf]

@joeprogrammer

no i have not missed the point. i just dont want to become involved but i could not avoid the temptation to say something which would hopefully take josch down a notch.

i can participate in this thread in an intelligent manner just as dani and infarction are but i do not want to.

i suppose i should not have aimed a strike at josch. not because it is inhumane since this term does not apply in any way whatsoever to josch, but because it seems that i am now being dragged in.