C++ - Why so serious?

[Intrade]

I don't get it...

Why is it that whenever I view posts of homework assignments and projects that a fair amount of the time (in Computer Science or C++), it seems as if--

Oh hang on. I already know what'll happen from here.

If I don't write a topic that has something to do with C++ programming I'll get banned, so give me a moment please.

#include <iostream>

using std::cin;
using std::cout;
using std::endl;

int main(){

   cout << "Why so serious?" << endl;
   cin.get();
   return 0;
}

-- Ok now that I've gotten that out of my system, I'll continue.

Like I was saying, why does it seem like some of the posts here are an ego-contest?

Some things to bring to light--

Result 1: Student/User asks for help, another Student gives help then a Vet comes in and provides a better solution that the original poster doesn't understand because it contains much more information than what the OP originally asked for.

Result 2: Original Poster has no idea on how to start the assignment and posts the question, yet individuals immediately assume that the OP is requesting the answer and not some hints on how to start.

Result 3: Original Poster thinks he/she knows what they're talking about, then a Vet comes in and explains to them how stupid they are (in a "polite" manner) then some posts later (usually after flaming) the Vets finally either give up or the OP gives up and the topic will become dead and buried, or closed.

Result 4: OP requests for help then 2 (or more) Vets get involved and end up battling it out with each other on how smart they are with Computer Science knowledge. This is perhaps the most annoying case, and really shows that Vets don't view each other as family but as competition.

Result ... : Other...

Close or move this topic if you will, but I just thought I'd ask why so
serious?

Is Daniweb not a family?

[Nick Evan]

My answers: (I'm not representing Daniweb here, only my personal views)

1.
Why wouldn't I supply a better solution if there is one? Although the OP may not understand the code at first sight, it will help him/her in the future when they have a similar problem. I'm just assuming that the OP is willing to learn and that (s)he is genuinely interested in learning C++. The OP can always ask questions about parts of the supplied code that (s)he doesn't understand.

2.
When you've been around as long as a a few members here, you get real sick of people just posting their requirements here without asking a descent question. If you tell them to ask a question or show what they've done so-far, 90% won't even reply, 5% will tell me to STFU en make the assigment already and 5% are actually interested in learning something. So call me a pessimist, but if the OP only posts his/her requirements, I'm not going to be real helpful. They have to show some effort first (as required by the rulebook). This effort minimal: If someone tells me how they think they would start the assignment, I'll help them. But no effort == no help in my case.

3.
This happens very rarely. If I think that the original code needs improvement (for example: to comply with ISO), I'll tell the OP. I never engage in flamewars. If the OP doesn't want my help, I'll back off.

4.
You got it all wrong. Yes: sometimes 'regulars' will start a discussion over which solution is the best, but this isn't competition at all, it's called 'healthy discussion'. These threads are what makes posting here fun because everyone has different views on different problems. I have been in a lot of these discussion and because of that, I now know how a lot of people think and work and I respect them for it.
These discussions actually help (what you call) the 'family'.

So that's how I think about it, you are free to have your own opinion, but remember not to take things to seriously on an internetforum ;)

offtopic: Whew, longest post ever...

[~s.o.s~]

> If I don't write a topic that has something to do with C++
> programming I'll get banned, so give me a moment please.

Not banned, the post will be deleted/moved. Anyways it still applies since your question still remains off-topic, I have moved it to the relevant forum. Now, flame on!

> Why is it that whenever I view posts of homework assignments and
> projects that a fair amount of the time (in Computer Science or
> C++), it seems as if--

You have seen nothing; go to the newsgroups and watch them shred you to pieces... :-)

On a serious note, I'll put down some random thoughts which haunt the minds of those who see "plz hlp" sort of posts:

- Time is precious
- Time is money
- Everyone has a life
- We can't read peoples' mind
- The help rendered if any is free; take it or leave it
- Search engines and books do exist out there
- Almost everyone hates leechers
- College work is better discussed with peers and professors
- Every human has a unique personality, whether you like it or not is a different thing altogether
- Life's a bit**

> Is Daniweb not a family?

No, seriously, it's an "IT Discussion Community". ;-)

[siddhant3s]

>>Like I was saying, why does it seem like some of the posts here are an ego-contest?
What is the harm?
Dani-web has a good ranking in various search engines. So its not only the member of Daniweb which are using it but some guests too. The "Vets" which you are calling may be the most experienced programmers. They tend to show their knowledge thinking that someone would be benefit from it. And it does help. And how does it matter if you get information from a person paying a simple cost of satisfying his/her ego.

>>Result 1
The 'Vet' is usually making a remark to :
1.Show that he knows
2.To let other knows
Which is a good thing I suppose. Moreover, the 'Vet' doesn't know how experienced OP is, so he finds safe to put the 'expert' comments. If OP understands it, good. If he don't, it is still not bad.
A good 'vet' however sieves he comments by labeling it as "Advanced" or "Intermediate" content.

>>Result 2
Don't agree at all. If the OP uses a search engine(Google in most of cases) he usually gains some knowledge about the subject. And this is reflected in his posts. It although, need a level to expertize and experience to tell if the OP has done some research or not. Good 'vets' have this skill.

>>Result 3
This is the responsibility of the OP( and sometimes, the mods) to take care of the thread they start. Its not often to find people here, who will not entertain OP's question if he asks "I am unable to understand what are you saying". Most 'Vets' are polite. Even if they are not, it doesn't matter. But if you asks them even the simple of the problem, they usually reply.

>>Result 4
This should not happen if the 'Vets' are smart. But you actually cannot help. If one of the person diverts the topic, it is very difficult to get the control of the situation. Definitely, ego, self pride comes into play, but I don't think it is of any harm. Most good Vets often direct the off-topic discussion to their Private Messages. Though, it is not the best solution in my opinion. The best solution would be to start a New Thread so that the whole world are benefited from the solution.

Is Daniweb not a family?
Sure it is.

[Narue]

I can't help but reply since I'm probably one of the 'Vets' the OP is talking about. ;)

>why does it seem like some of the posts here are an ego-contest?
I'd wager it's because programmers tend to have big egos. It's also a game, which I'll describe shortly.

Result 1: Student/User asks for help, another Student gives help then a Vet comes in and provides a better solution that the original poster doesn't understand because it contains much more information than what the OP originally asked for.

Nearly always, the second student gave a substandard answer that's littered with bugs and misunderstandings. Rather than let the OP get led astray by an unqualified yet well-meaning helper, we jump in and offer corrections or a superior alternative.

Even if the second student by some miracle provides a flawless answer that's perfect for the OP, there are still alternatives upon alternatives and nuances upon nuances that the second student may not be aware of. A 'Vet' will be able to share insights that both students can learn from.

Result 2: Original Poster has no idea on how to start the assignment and posts the question, yet individuals immediately assume that the OP is requesting the answer and not some hints on how to start.

Past behavior is an indicator of future behavior. If 99% of the "I don't know how to start" questions ultimately end up being "Gimme the code! GIMME GIMME DAMMIT GIMME!!!!!111oneone" then we're quite justified in being hostile toward those questions. You'll find that if the OP shows some initiative and effort, we change our tune quickly and become helpful.

Result 3: Original Poster thinks he/she knows what they're talking about, then a Vet comes in and explains to them how stupid they are (in a "polite" manner) then some posts later (usually after flaming) the Vets finally either give up or the OP gives up and the topic will become dead and buried, or closed.

Have you ever tried to correct somebody? It's so hard to do without hurting a feeling somewhere that many of us don't bother trying anymore. The C++ community in particular won't blow sunshine up your butt; you'll get the cold hard reality without any sugar coating. The result of that is ultra-sensitive OPs getting all insulted over nothing and starting flame wars.

I'd wager that most of the flame wars in the programming forums are caused by a newbie overreacting to perceived rudeness.

Result 4: OP requests for help then 2 (or more) Vets get involved and end up battling it out with each other on how smart they are with Computer Science knowledge. This is perhaps the most annoying case, and really shows that Vets don't view each other as family but as competition.

It most certainly is a competition. Programmers in particular are arrogant, and many can't resist the temptation to show off. That doesn't prove we're not a family, it proves we are because we can have friendly fights without any ill will afterward. I have no doubt that I could flame ~s.o.s~ to a crisp on the forums and then immediately after chat with him about anime on IRC. Why? Because we're friends and both understand that it's never personal.

Allow me to introduce you to The Game™. The Game™ is a sophisticated dance between two or more experts where they all show off their knowledge and experience by correcting and adding to what the others say. The one who gives the most information with the fewest mistakes "wins". The Game™ is an evolution of a private game between the most infallible experts of a forum where everyone tried to find and correct the mistakes of the others.

When 'Vets' participate in The Game™, you'll discover that a lot of information that can't easily be found elsewhere is concentrated in a single thread. Readers of all levels can learn something from these threads (even the 'Vets' who are playing The Game™). If it annoys you, tough. The Game™ is a way for experts to entertain themselves and everyone wins when it's played.

[verruckt24]

Result 1: Student/User asks for help, another Student gives help then a Vet comes in and provides a better solution that the original poster doesn't understand because it contains much more information than what the OP originally asked for.

Thats called giving an insight into the stuff, which however useless it might feel to the OP or to beginners here, is of prime value. This insight is what would give the OP a much better understanding of the problem at hand than anything else if he cares to give it a look and thought. What another beginner provides would be superficial information without providing what goes on inside, which may look good then, because it's easy to understand but in the longer run you would want to have more of the insights especially from knowledgeable people.

@siddhant3s:
>>The 'Vet' is usually making a remark to :
>>1.Show that he knows

I don't agree with this at all.

>>A good 'vet' however sieves he comments by labeling it as "Advanced" or "Intermediate" content.

Frankly speaking I haven't come across any such labellings myself.

Original Poster has no idea on how to start the assignment and posts the question, yet individuals immediately assume that the OP is requesting the answer and not some hints on how to start.

Why does he not have the idea ? How often it happens that you have been given a school assignment and you have no clue whatsoever about it ? Well to tell you the chances of this happening are real slim and by slim I mean the width of the skin of a hair - you get that ?
Also I guess you feel this way about it because you haven't spent that much time around, I agree with niek_e here when he says that. Just the number of people making such requests would be a good indication towards this that it is not that they weren't offered with much information, that they not have a clue, it might be because they were careless to not gather the information when it was offered (May be in class or o/w). And believe me they are looking for ready-made stuff more often than not.

Result 3: Original Poster thinks he/she knows what they're talking about, then a Vet comes in and explains to them how stupid they are (in a "polite" manner) then some posts later (usually after flaming) the Vets finally either give up or the OP gives up and the topic will become dead and buried, or closed.

I agree with niek_e here too, this happens so very rarely. And also the reasons that a so-called "vet" does back-off may be because he remembers what he was taught way back in school - that there's no point in banging your head against the wall.

Result 4: OP requests for help then 2 (or more) Vets get involved and end up battling it out with each other on how smart they are with Computer Science knowledge. This is perhaps the most annoying case, and really shows that Vets don't view each other as family but as competition.

However hard I try I cannot get better than niek_e here. So I would just wanna ditto to what he said.

In addition to all this I would like to add something here that sounds relevant. I am not a geek myself but I have for certain met many of them here and their behaviour reminded me of an essay I had read about geeks sometime ago. The essence of the essay which tried to explain a geeks behaviour on a forum was that that a geek would often sound arrogant to a newcomer with their way of answering to stuff which in reality isn't true. The reason they appear so, is because of the fact that they've seen so much and they couldn't care less, and also because that they always have lesser time than required for the things they aspire to do. A geek kinda person would go through your problem drop a quick hint expecting you to do the background work needed to actually make anything of the hint and then forget about it. Don't expect such people to write a tutorial for you. They have learnt it the hard way and they wouldn't be wrong if they expect you to do the same.

Edit : However unlikely it may seem but Narue hadn't posted when I started writing mine. ;) Also thats the same "essay" I am talking about that she points out with "perceived rudeness".

[siddhant3s]

>>Frankly speaking I haven't come across any such labellings myself.
It is then your bad luck, I guess!!
http://www.daniweb.com/forums/thread185887.html#3 This was one of my recent post I guess. But I have some of Narue posts too containing labeling and discretion for experts and non-experts.

>>@siddhant3s:
>>>>The 'Vet' is usually making a remark to :
>>>>1.Show that he knows
>>
>>I don't agree with this at all.
You may not. But that is true. Geeks/experts love others to know that they know. And I don't think it is wrong anywhere. They tend to show-off, and as Narue said try to "win" the Game.

Now I am surprised where is OP.:-/

[ithelp]

I do not see anything wrong with daniweb policies, how will one learn if he does not put that extra effort to code the project assignments given , if he gets struck while doing his homework, I have seen people posting more than ten times showing some progress and people at daniweb are helping him again and again.

[MidiMagic]

It's because C programmers have void on the brain. :icon_mrgreen: