My thoughts on Norwegian bombing - Page 2

[Hani1991]

I take offense at the assumption/implication that atheists are unable to be equally good people as religious people

A true religious person is more high-minded than an atheist because religion urges people to be well mannered, and deters them from being wicked and from committing such crimes (but still atheists can be very high-minded.)
Those who commit crimes, claiming that it's their religion, are very mistaken! All the divine religions forbid people from doing immoral deeds.

-> effectively saying I'm not as good a person as you simple because I don't believe one or many supernatural powerful creatures exist.

First, I'm not simple, :) and second God is not a creature! He is the Creator of creatures. It's not a fact that's beyond the reach of logic. It's not an imaginary fact that God exists, nor is it believed in just for a person to feel safe because a "supernatural creature" is protecting them. It's a fact that God exists with many proofs. Islam has proven so far many facts stated through the Holy Qur'an. And as you know, the Holy Qur'an was sent to the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad peace be upon him, more than 1400 years ago, yet scientists today discover new facts, then we realize that it is mentioned in the Holy Qur'an. That means that God, Who created us and knows everything about us, does exist because these facts were impossible to be discovered at the time when Islam started to spread in the Arab Peninsula.

Atheist have more reason to want to be good people, to be nice to others, to make the world a better place because there is no afterlife, there is no future happiness to make up for suffering today, this life is all there is so we have a duty to make it a good life for each and every person.

I say again, an atheist can be very high-minded, but when they become religious they'll be better-mannered. Islam teaches people to try very hard to improve their knowledge and to make the world a better place to live at any cost because there IS an afterlife.
Islam orders people to learn how to live a better life. If you study the Islamic history, you'll realize what I'm saying, and you'll see and be astonished by how many Islamic scientists have brought science forward. Until today, science depends on many achievements that were made by those scientists.
Thank you.

[sergent]

God is not a creature! He is the Creator of creatures

I don't like how all the religious people say that there is god, and when atheists say there is none, religious people get offended. I don't really care if believers say there is god, but if you want us to respect your believes, and not to say things like "there is no god", then do not say things like "God is the Creator of creatures, and God made us."

If you don't want us to say that then say, "I believe God the creator is not a creature", not "God is not a creature, but Creator", and atheists will say "We believe god did not create anyone, and we believe he does not exist". BTW, we offend God, not you so by your logic he should punish us, so there is no point in arguing with us.

but when they become religious they'll be better-mannered

THATS SSOOOOOO stereotypical. And this stereotype does not even exist, it seems like you just made it up. You have absolutely no prove of that, and IT IS really offending to atheists. When I talk about stereotypes, you say I am wrong and all people are equal and now you say that religious people are smarter, deeper, and better-mannered. WOW, you are really wrong. I know a lot of really stupid, and horribly-mannered religious people. When I think about it, atheists tend to have a better education, and it seems to me there is a lot more intelectuals who are atheists, and if you compare the total numbers of atheists to believers, the number of atheist intelectuals seems to be even bigger. Of course, this is what I think, and is in no way backed up by facts.

[Hani1991]

I don't like how all the religious people say that there is god, and when atheists say there is none, religious people get offended. I don't really care if believers say there is god, but if you want us to respect your believes, and not to say things like "there is no god", then do not say things like "God is the Creator of creatures, and God made us."

You guys are saying things I didn't even say! I do not get offended when you say "There's no god." And I did not even say that. I realize that everyone has their own beliefs. The offense comes when you talk about the whole base of somebody's belief and simply say, "Islam's Koran is no worse then the bible." This is what you've already said in some of your previous comments here.

If you don't want us to say that then say

Wait a minute... I don't even care whether you say it or not!

BTW, we offend God, not you so by your logic he should punish us, so there is no point in arguing with us.

Nobody offends God! And, as I said, I'm not trying to punish or judge anyone here.
And if God wills to punish anyone, He will, but not because He is sad or angry.. You should know that we believe that God is not human or a creature. He is God.

THATS SSOOOOOO stereotypical. And this stereotype does not even exist, it seems like you just made it up. You have absolutely no prove of that, and IT IS really offending to atheists.

There are real instances in life that prove this fact.

When I talk about stereotypes, you say I am wrong and all people are equal and now you say that religious people are smarter, deeper, and better-mannered

I didn't say they'll be smarter or deeper! You're misquoting me!!
I said they'll try to improve themselves.
And I DID SAY, "PEOPLE SHOULD BE EQUAL WHILE TREATING EACH OTHER"

WOW, you are really wrong. I know a lot of really stupid, and horribly-mannered religious people.

I do too. I know a lot of people claiming that they're religious, but simply they're not, and that's why they're immoral.

When I think about it, atheists tend to have a better education,

It's never true. Atheists may try to have good education, but not BETTER ONE at all.

and it seems to me there is a lot more intelectuals who are atheists,

That seems to YOU. So it isn't necessarily the truth.

and if you compare the total numbers of atheists to believers, the number of atheist intelectuals seems to be even bigger.

It depends on how you define "intellectual", and how it seems to YOU.

Of course, this is what I think, and is in no way backed up by facts.

So you realize it is imaginary, not proved by facts, so why are you talking about it?

PS: Please do NOT misquote me again in order to prove something you want to persuade yourself or anybody with.

Thanks

[Paaat]

Come on guys! You do know that Hani is talking about real facts, yet you still misquote him. I've scanned the thread to see whether there is something said by Hani like what you say, Sergent.. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any!
Please let's try to respect the others and be reasonable.

[Hani1991]

Come on guys! You do know that Hani is talking about real facts, yet you still misquote him. I've scanned the thread to see whether there is something said by Hani like what you say, Sergent.. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any!
Please let's try to respect the others and be reasonable.

Thank you for being reasonable, Paaat.
We have a nice sentence that says: "I wish there were ten of you!" :)

[VernonDozier]

Those who commit crimes, claiming that it's their religion, are very mistaken! All the divine religions forbid people from doing immoral deeds.

This is all circular logic, or if not circular, based on definitions that may or may not be agreed upon. It allows 1) you to reject Muslims who do wicked things without having to take a closer look at Islam. Some of these people have devoted their lives to studying the Koran. Somehow they interpreted it differently from you. Perhaps there's more than one way to read it? 2) It allows for a few loopholes where if you get to define "innocent", "wicked", and "divine", you can kill all sorts of people in the name of Islam. No matter how wicked or insane you get, you'll never find anything a prominent atheist has written that you could remotely misinterpret as commanding you to kill in the name of atheism, and you'll NEVER find atheists strapping bombs on themselves in the hope that they'll get rewarded for it in heaven.

Presumably, the 9/11 hijackers, to take one very obvious example, thought that...

1. The Koran commanded them to do what they did and that they were correctly interpreting the Koran.
2. They were doing God's will. (follows directly from 1 for them)
3. They weren't doing anything immoral. (follows directly from 1 for them)
4. They weren't committing any "crimes". (follows directly from 1 for them)
5. They weren't doing anything "wicked". (follows directly from 1 for them)
6. The victims deserved it.
7. They'd be rewarded in Heaven.

I imagine you would disagree with number 1 and say they DID NOT interpret the Koran correctly. I can't imagine that you'd disagree that THEY felt that 1 through 7 were true, rightly or wrongly. Me, I don't have the foggiest clue what the Koran commands and does not command. They may have indeed misinterpreted the Koran. I hope they did. But since the Koran DEFINES what is wicked and what is immoral for Muslims, clearly it is going to forbid wicked and immoral acts, so the sentence is meaningless. I don't even need to open the Koran or know anything about it to come to that conclusion. Add the phrase "ALL the DIVINE religions" in there and it becomes even more meaningless because you can simply define any religion that isn't Islam as non-"divine". You mentioned Christianity was "divine". Presumably Judaism is in there too? There seem to be quite a few Muslims out there who have a problem with Jews

Also, unlike what's being viewed on TV, in Islam, murdering any innocent person under any kind of difference (thought, ideology, religion, race, etc.) is considered to be totally a big horrible crime and guilt.

Here again, this is semantics. Even murderers would agree that it's bad to "murder" an "innocent" person. Want to kill someone and still feel good? Either make sure you don't call it "murder" or make sure your victims aren't "innocent". Many Muslims think that the mere act of rejecting Islam is a crime punishable by death and anyone who does is certainly no longer "innocent". I don't know if Islam has the concept of "original" sin or not. Anyway, quite a few Muslims have done the old "Convert or die" ultimatum, so again, apparently they aren't interpreting it correctly. Christians have too, though not too recently. Jews never have. Atheists certainly never have.

Until today, science depends on many achievements that were made by those scientists.

I don't know which scientists you are referring to. Certainly the Arabs, Babylonians, Persians, and Egyptians had some great scientific accomplishments, most of which pre-date Islam. TODAY's scientists seem to be overwhelmingly atheists. Those that aren't atheists seem to either be agnostic or deists or have religious views where God created the universe and laws of physics billions of years ago and pretty much stays out of it now.

[Hani1991]

This is all circular logic, or if not circular, based on definitions that may or may not be agreed upon. It allows 1) you to reject Muslims who do wicked things without having to take a closer look at Islam. Some of these people have devoted their lives to studying the Koran. Somehow they interpreted it differently from you.

I wonder how you talk about things you know almost nothing about, and you judge them the way you want! I'll count for you how many times you say things without depending on the resources of Islam, and you judge Islam with it.
There are many definitions that all the Muslims agree upon, one of which is the freedom of belief (and I think it doesn't need to be defined too) #1. In Islam, the main principles do not change on day-to-day living, so even scholars do not change these principles because they remain true and suitable all the time (e.g. the freedom of belief, the fact that a citizen is totally wrong when s/he kills, etc.). Thus, scholars, or those who have devoted their lives to studying the Qur'an, do not misinterpret any main principle like this because they're too clear to be misinterpreted.
Also, if a Muslim or a non-Muslim does wicked things, I do not reject him at all. Otherwise, I would be wicked!

Perhaps there's more than one way to read it?

So there is. However, not every single statement can be read in more than one way.. Again, killing is NOT ALLOWED IN ISLAM.

2) It allows for a few loopholes where if you get to define "innocent", "wicked", and "divine", you can kill all sorts of people in the name of Islam.

Since this is a forum, I don't have to define every single word I say because it's not a regulation guide. After all, the word innocent is very clear, and I said before that citizens are not allowed to kill at any cost except for if defending themselves, and if you want me to clarify it more, only the law of a country specifies what is allowed and what is prohibited, and when killing is punishable, and when it isn't.

No matter how wicked or insane you get, you'll never find anything a prominent atheist has written that you could remotely misinterpret as commanding you to kill in the name of atheism, and you'll NEVER find atheists strapping bombs on themselves in the hope that they'll get rewarded for it in heaven.

Who said that if you bomb yourself, you'll "get rewarded for it in heaven"? (#2)
By the way, since most of the politicians of the world are atheists, then tell me who is making wars and destroying the world today? Who is sending soldiers to many countries claiming that those countries have a WMD, then they "discover" they are wrong? Who is greedy now? Again, I'm not accusing all the atheist of being so. You should also refrain from accusing the religious of being terrorists.

Presumably, the 9/11 hijackers, to take one very obvious example, thought that...

Before you continue, and you based all the list on the fact that the "hijackers" were Muslims, Let me ask you a few questions:
1. Why did the American government refuse to publish the videos recorded by the cameras planted around the International Trade Tower?
2. How could a non-American break into this security system??
3. How could a non-American enter the White House?
4. Why it is said that all the Jewish staff had one day off on that day? (No offense to the Jews).
.. I don't want to go further than this.
Even if I was wrong with all theses questions, and even if all that was done by Muslims, and certainly not, Islam has nothing to do with that hijacking. Many governments around the world just do their dirty deeds and say it is some Muslims who have done that.

1. The Koran commanded them to do what they did and that they were correctly interpreting the Koran.
2. They were doing God's will. (follows directly from 1 for them)
3. They weren't doing anything immoral. (follows directly from 1 for them)
4. They weren't committing any "crimes". (follows directly from 1 for them)
5. They weren't doing anything "wicked". (follows directly from 1 for them)
6. The victims deserved it.
7. They'd be rewarded in Heaven.

1: The Qur'an never commands citizens to kill, and can't be interpreted like that. (#3)
2: For any Muslim, it's not God's will.
3: For all the Muslims, this is a crime.
4: The same..
5: For all the Muslims, CERTAINLY NOT.
6: Again, God does not reward terrorists! How could you even imagine this??

Me, I don't have the foggiest clue what the Koran commands and does not command.

That's what I'm talking about; since you don't know, why do you say that Muslims do and Islam does??

They may have indeed misinterpreted the Koran. I hope they did.

Those who have done this might have not even read any single word from the Qur'an!!

Add the phrase "ALL the DIVINE religions" in there and it becomes even more meaningless because you can simply define any religion that isn't Islam as non-"divine".

Irrelevant. Besides, the divine religions are those sent by God, not invented by humans because not all the religions made by humans are peaceful as you might know.

You mentioned Christianity was "divine". Presumably Judaism is in there too?

And I mentioned that Muslims can't be Muslims if they don't believe in Noah, Abraham, Moses, the Christ, and all the other prophets.

There seem to be quite a few Muslims out there who have a problem with Jews

The conflict is between the Palestinians and those taking their lands by force. Many Jews around the world, as you can see, despise what is being done to the Palestinians.

Many Muslims think that the mere act of rejecting Islam is a crime punishable by death and anyone who does is certainly no longer "innocent".

Incorrect (#4). You certainly have no idea about Islam. And you should know that if a person does anything it doesn't mean that their religion is the responsible for it. People are not angels who don't have sins. You could see crimes in any Muslim, Christian, Jewish, atheist or mixed society.

I don't know if Islam has the concept of "original" sin or not.

No it doesn't at all. Contrary, Islam says people are born good innately.

I don't know which scientists you are referring to. Certainly the Arabs, Babylonians, Persians, and Egyptians had some great scientific accomplishments, most of which pre-date Islam.

Well, apparently you know nothing about Islam. You can see the following list although I haven't read it completely yet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_scientists
You can see, for instance, al-Khawarizmi, the mathematician (The origin of the word "algorithm" comes from his name). One of his many achievements was:
"In the twelfth century, Latin translations of his work on the Indian numerals, introduced the decimal positional number system to the Western world."

TODAY's scientists seem to be overwhelmingly atheists. Those that aren't atheists seem to either be agnostic or deists or have religious views where God created the universe and laws of physics billions of years ago and pretty much stays out of it now.

I don't know whether they are mostly non-religious or not. However, Muslims, especially those living in the Arab countries, have not yet been cleansed of the poisons of the previous colonialism and the currently applied neocolonialism. However, they're generally now reclaiming their power of knowledge. By the way, there are many Arab Muslim scientists scattered around the world due to some unsuitable conditions in their own countries.

PS: Sorry for making it too long, but I don't like to hear wrong ideas and stay silent. :)

Thank you

[crunchie]

No it doesn't at all. Contrary, Islam says people are born good innately.

So, is it not strange that we have to actually teach our children to do right? One would think that if we are born innately good, then we would do only good.

[VernonDozier]

>> Incorrect (#4). You certainly have no idea about Islam.

I'm the first to admit that, and I HAVE admitted that. However, I can quote a LONG line of Muslim clerics who DO interpret it that way. Just about the entire suicide-bombing sub-population of Muslims interprets it that way. If THEY'RE interpreting it wrong, your beef is with THEM. It certainly IS correct that the 9/11 hijackers felt that way.

>> Thus, scholars, or those who have devoted their lives to studying the Qur'an, do not misinterpret any main principle like this because they're too clear to be misinterpreted.

Mullah Omar and all of the Madrassa teachers have devoted their entire lives to studying it and abiding by it. No music, no kite flying, no dancing, etc. Clearly they're interpreting it as being not only OK, but a duty, to kill infidels. Incorrect interpretation? Again, heck if I know. Ayatollah Khomeni put out a fatwa on Rushdie saying every Muslim had a duty to try to kill him for being wicked.

>> Also, if a Muslim or a non-Muslim does wicked things, I do not reject him at all.

That's the problem. You're not rejecting the Muslims who are doing this stuff. You need to. They're certainly rejecting YOUR interpretation.

>> Who said that if you bomb yourself, you'll "get rewarded for it in heaven"? (#2)

al Qaeda says that. Again, the seven points I quoted is THEIR interpretation.

>> By the way, since most of the politicians of the world are atheists

Nonsense. Atheists can't get elected. Religious secularists can get elected, but not atheists. Certainly not in the U.S. I'm sure there are atheists in Congress, but hardly any of them will admit it. It's the kiss of death at the polling booth.

>> Who is sending soldiers to many countries claiming that those countries have a WMD, then they "discover" they are wrong?

Presumably you are referring to George W. Bush. I'd hardly consider him an atheist. I'd say that if anything his religious beliefs contributed to his decision to invade Iraq.

>> You should also refrain from accusing the religious of being terrorists.

I'm not accusing the religious of being terrorists. I'm saying that the terrorists tend to be religious and the non-terrorist religious people are far too reticent to take on fellow religious people and instead decide to take on atheists, who are exclusively NON-terrorists.

>> Before you continue, and you based all the list on the fact that the "hijackers" were Muslims,

Not sure why "hijackers" is in quotes. Yes, the planes were hijacked, yes they were hijacked by Muslims. If you don't take America's word for it, take al Qaeda's word for it. They've admitted it.

>> Why did the American government refuse to publish the videos recorded by the cameras planted around the International Trade Tower?

Google "9/11". You'll find twenty zillion videos of a plane slamming into the World Trade Center. Probably a billion people saw it live on TV. Thousands of private citizens recorded it with their OWN cameras and posted it.

>> How could a non-American break into this security system??

What security system? I have no idea what you're talking about.

>> How could a non-American enter the White House?

Non-Americans enter the White House all the time with permission. No break-in is required. World leaders have joint press conferences there all the time.

>> Why it is said that all the Jewish staff had one day off on that day?

Because there is still a lot of good-old-fashioned anti-semitism in the world, pure and simple. No, all the Jewish staff DID NOT have one day off that day. They were killed along with everyone else.

>> No offense to the Jews

A little late for that.

>> .. I don't want to go further than this.

I think you went plenty far enough just bringing it up in the first place. Why are you repeating anti-semitic rumors?

[Hani1991]

>> Incorrect (#4). You certainly have no idea about Islam.
I'm the first to admit that, and I HAVE admitted that. However, I can quote a LONG line of Muslim clerics who DO interpret it that way.

If you're quoting, then you have the reason to quote it like that. Not all the figures appearing on the mass media are considered by Muslims to be their representatives. For example, al-Qa'edah deeds and declarations have nothing to do with Islam if they're really like what we see on TV.

Just about the entire suicide-bombing sub-population of Muslims interprets it that way. If THEY'RE interpreting it wrong, your beef is with THEM. It certainly IS correct that the 9/11 hijackers felt that way.

Since I told you what Islam teaches and how the Muslims know Islam, then you should cease to charge Islam with those immoral deeds. You've quoted some lines of people who aren't considered to be resources by THE MAJORITY of Muslims. There are many other quotations you can read which are contrary to what you have just quoted.

Mullah Omar and all of the Madrassa teachers have devoted their entire lives to studying it and abiding by it. No music, no kite flying, no dancing, etc. Clearly they're interpreting it as being not only OK, but a duty, to kill infidels. Incorrect interpretation? Again, heck if I know. Ayatollah Khomeni put out a fatwa on Rushdie saying every Muslim had a duty to try to kill him for being wicked.

Again, the same problem. There are many scholars who do not say that music is not allowed, and I haven't heard of a scholar who says that people are forbidden from having fun! This is nonsense. All the Muslim people I know in my society play games, joke, go on trips, love, and enjoy their lives.

>> Also, if a Muslim or a non-Muslim does wicked things, I do not reject him at all.
That's the problem. You're not rejecting the Muslims who are doing this stuff. You need to. They're certainly rejecting YOUR interpretation.

If the whole society rejected Muslims or non-Muslims who do wicked things, then who would try to fix the disasters they make?? Aren't there reasons for committing crimes, as someone suggested here? I don't make excuses for what they're doing, but we should find the reason before we try to solve the problem.

>> Who said that if you bomb yourself, you'll "get rewarded for it in heaven"? (#2)

al Qaeda says that. Again, the seven points I quoted is THEIR interpretation.

Again, you're quoting an untrustworthy group of people. And I'm saying to you, there are verses in the Qur'an that are very clear which states that killing is not allowed.
This is a quotation from a translation of the Holy Qur'an (It's almost transliteration, but it's considered to be an interpretation):
"Allah (God) forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just." 60.8
Note: The Holy Qur'an is only the Arabic one. Other translations are considered interpretations unlike the Bible. However, this is how the verse is exactly understood in Arabic, i.e. God loves who treats people kindly even those who are of other religions since they, as a country, do not harm Muslims (as a country as well).
So, is there a statement clearer than this?
I know it's not your fault, but you had to look for what the majority is. After all, if Islam urges Muslims to be offensive to non-Muslims, then you wouldn't have seen Christians or Jews living between them all this period. Read about it in the history, you will realize how Muslims treated Christians and Jews during the Islamic rule. Until today, Muslims, Christians and Jews live together with completely religious tolerance. I have many non-Muslim and nonreligious friends, and we love each other regardless of each others' beliefs.

I'm sure there are atheists in Congress, but hardly any of them will admit it.

Of course they wouldn't admit, but it's apparent through their deeds. So it's not nonsense. Religious leaders wouldn't accept to declare wars like that. In Palestine, women and children get killed just because they're Palestinians. Then we see all or maybe most of the Congress members breaking into rapturous applause after listening to that killer speech in their own country as if he were the leader! Alas, that was really an affront to the U.S people.

>> Who is sending soldiers to many countries claiming that those countries have a WMD, then they "discover" they are wrong?

Presumably you are referring to George W. Bush. I'd hardly consider him an atheist. I'd say that if anything his religious beliefs contributed to his decision to invade Iraq.

It's not only for George W.Bush. I'm talking about the politicians who agreed and still agree until now about sending or keeping military forces around the world for fabricated reasons they make in order to convince their people.

I'm not accusing the religious of being terrorists.

It's not you. I'm using the pronoun you here as a 2nd person plural pronoun. So it's a generalization with exceptions. :)

I'm saying that the terrorists tend to be religious and the non-terrorist religious people are far too reticent to take on fellow religious people and instead decide to take on atheists, who are exclusively NON-terrorists.

Terrorism is not only undertaken by gangs and organizations. Countries and politicians can practice terrorism against other countries as we can see today. The fact of being really religious disallows you from being a terrorist.

Not sure why "hijackers" is in quotes.

Because I don't believe they were hijacked.

If you don't take America's word for it, take al Qaeda's word for it. They've admitted it.

For me, al Qa'edah is an American organized group of people who were put in some places in order for some U.S politicians to send the army there under the U.N laws or whatever, and achieve their greedy plans.
The fact that U.B.Laden was killed that easy makes me surer about it. They say he was living in a house for many years, (and they didn't discover it!) and he had no windows! How could any person live in a village and go to the mountains and come back without being noticed all that period by any person?? If you look inside the plot you'll find how much ridiculous it is.

Google "9/11". You'll find twenty zillion videos of a plane slamming into the World Trade Center. Probably a billion people saw it live on TV. Thousands of private citizens recorded it with their OWN cameras and posted it.

I don't mean those videos. There are many videos that were not allowed to be published first like the ones recorded by the Sheraton's security cameras.
There are anyway many conspiracy theories about this.

>> How could a non-American break into this security system??
What security system? I have no idea what you're talking about.

I mean the American defense, and particularly the air defense.

>> .. I don't want to go further than this.

I think you went plenty far enough just bringing it up in the first place.

I meant by this that I hadn't wanted to make my writing longer.

Why are you repeating anti-semitic rumors?

I haven't even said any anti-semitic sentence. And I made myself clear that I have nothing to do with hating Jews or Judaism or any other religion or belief.

[Hani1991]

So, is it not strange that we have to actually teach our children to do right? One would think that if we are born innately good, then we would do only good.

That's not my point at all. You should teach your children how to do good things, but they're innately good, i.e. they will be able to receive good deeds and morals unless the environment they are born in is not qualified to teach them so. If you are immoral, your children will be so.
Besides, how could anyone imagine that God may put evil in anybody's babies? Babies are too innocent to hold evil in their hearts.

[crunchie]

If the whole society rejected Muslims or non-Muslims who do wicked things, then who would try to fix the disasters they make?? Aren't there reasons for committing crimes, as someone suggested here? I don't make excuses for what they're doing, but we should find the reason before we try to solve the problem.

They still deserve condemnation, especially by those of the same faith.

Because I don't believe they were hijacked.

So, what do you believe actually happened?

For me, al Qa'edah is an American organized group of people who were put in some places in order for some U.S politicians to send the army there under the U.N laws or whatever, and achieve their greedy plans.

Unbelievable.

[crunchie]

That's not my point at all. You should teach your children how to do good things, but they're innately good, i.e. they will be able to receive good deeds and morals unless the environment they are born in is not qualified to teach them so. If you are immoral, your children will be so.
Besides, how could anyone imagine that God may put evil in anybody's babies? Babies are too innocent to hold evil in their hearts.

So, you do not believe in Adam and Eve?

[Agilemind]

There are real instances in life that prove this fact.

I didn't say they'll be smarter or deeper!

1) Saying there are real instances is worthless. I can find real instances of the reverse (I'll just pick a particularly nice atheist and a particularly mean believer of the religion of your choice).

2) Anubis the dog-headed Egyptian God would IMO fit the description of "creature" as would the "Rainbow Serpent" creator of the Australian Aborigines.

3) True you didn't say they were smarter/deeper you said they were better mannered, what ever that is supposed to mean. If it is supposed to mean less likely to say something that offends it seems you have disproven that. If it means less likely to claim they are better than someone else you have disproven that as well. If it means less likely to bother you by trying to 'convert you' the weekly junkmail I get would disprove that. If it means more likely to give to charity that has been disproven. If it means more likely to but on a smile and tell natural disaster victims they brought it on themselves so they should rejoice in the death and destruction then yes that is true.

[Agilemind]

After all, the word innocent is very clear, and I said before that citizens are not allowed to kill at any cost except for if defending themselves,

Defending themselves from what?

From an invading Christian country?
From the spread of damaging atheist ideas (since apparently being an atheist is worse than being a believer)?
From the loss of one's language?
From the loss of one's religion?
From changes to one's way of life (eg. women going to school, eg. native people's being forced off their hunting grounds)?
From a dictator propped up by Western countries?
From rough handling by police officers (what if the police officers are corrupt)?
From American troops trying to burn your crops, your family's livelihood?

How is the word innocent clear?
If person X kills someone protecting a woman/child but enjoys the thrill of it are they innocent?
If person Y kills someone when they were drinking drunk are they innocent?
If person Z works for an organization that is buying up all the water in your town so that the villagers are going hungry/thirsty are they innocent? What if person Z is the boss and was the one who made the decision to buy the water?

[VernonDozier]

>> I haven't even said any anti-semitic sentence. And I made myself clear that I have nothing to do with hating Jews or Judaism or any other religion or belief.

Let's look at the quote.

Why it is said that all the Jewish staff had one day off on that day? (No offense to the Jews).

This is a clear reference to the myth that 4000 Jews on 9/11 got a tipoff that it was coming.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/israel.asp
http://www.slate.com/id/116813/

It was apparently started by this anti-semitic fool and has been repeated all over the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiri_Baraka#Controversies

That it's false seems so obvious that it doesn't need debunking. To believe it, you have to believe the following...

1. The Israelis did 9/11
2. The Israelis had a list of Jews working at the World Trade Center so they could contact all of them.
3. They contacted all of them and told them to stay home.
4. 4000 Jews stayed home.
5. None of them told their non-Jewish friends, so they died.
6. None of them have had guilty consciences since and spilled the beans.
7. None of them have gotten in trouble with the law since and spilled the beans in hopes of a lighter sentence.
8. All the Jewish people who supposedly died that day are actually alive on some remote desert island and have had the self discipline to never be seen again by anyone they knew in their prior lives.
9. They either didn't tell their families or their families are fantastic actors. They sure seem to act like they lost their husbands on 9/11.

I submit that one has to be an anti-semite to believe all of that.

there are verses in the Qur'an that are very clear which states that killing is not allowed.

Thrilled to hear it.

So, is there a statement clearer than this?

Seems clear enough to me, but you're asking the wrong guy. Again, you need to be talking to the guys who are supposedly misinterpreting it. I have neither the ability nor the inclination to debate the verses of the Koran. But the whole point is that some people in your faith are interpreting it (according to you) incorrectly and doing some pretty vile stuff with it and they've read it cover to cover.

I have no doubt that the vast majority of Muslims are appalled by what al Qaeda does. I've engaged plenty of Muslims who have told me that flat out. They've all told me as well not to judge all or most Muslims by al Qaeda. Fair enough. I won't and I don't. Unlike you, though, they're willing to admit that al Qaeda exists and isn't a tool of the U.S.

The fact of being really religious disallows you from being a terrorist.

Face it. They were religious. They did it BECAUSE they were religious. Yes, they were Muslims. Did Islam truly command them to do it? Let's hope you and the other Muslims are right and it did not. But they were Muslims, they hijacked planes, and they flew them into buildings. Deal with it.

Because I don't believe they were hijacked.

Well, they took off and never landed, millions of people saw planes fly into the World Trade Center, and none of the people on those planes have ever been seen again and there are a whole bunch of wives and spouses who received "Goodbye, I love you" messages from people who said they were on a hijacked plane. The planes were either hijacked or all these people volunteered to allow themselves to be killed for some reason.

These religious threads (come to think of it, it didn't START as a religious thread) never go anywhere useful. I imagine a 9/11 conspiracy thread won't be any more fruitful.

[Paaat]

To most of you,
Since you consider the discussion to be controversial, then please, Hani do not waste your time arguing with them anymore.
Obviously Hani has already replied to all these unreasonable sentences, yet you repeat the same ideas.
You guys are easily offended by simple words that are not intended to be more than a mere discussion. You are hardly convinced and one can't make you understand even simple facts if you don't want to!!
You are going far away from the center of the discussion. Hani has wasted much time on this discussion with you and tried to be kind with you, but every single word he says makes you say: "this is offensive." You are trying to pretend that you have tolerant morals though you indeed have none because you get pissed off at him immediately.
He has mentioned the International Trade Tower as an example only, and you forgot everything and started talking about this minor point.
I'm not a lawyer to defend anyone here, nor am I a judge. However, I got outraged at seeing how you all are acting towards him as if he were your enenmy!
Now, I know that most of you will dislike me for being fair.
That's it, I beg you Hani not to post a reply to those questions becuase it won't stop. They'll still ask you and accuse your religion and people. That's really impolite!

[VernonDozier]

>> He has mentioned the International Trade Tower as an example only, and you forgot everything and started talking about this minor point.

He thinks al Qaeda didn't hijack the airplanes and fly them into buildings. Hardly a "minor" point. Seems like the actual crux of the matter to me.

>> You are trying to pretend that you have tolerant morals though you indeed have none because you get pissed off at him immediately.

Also the crux of the matter. I for one have morals. I also consider myself pretty tolerant. I didn't need religion to get them. I for one am not an atheist, but that's a whole 'nuther topic. I think Hani has been treated respectfully.

[Hani1991]

First off, neither I nor anybody else represent Islam except for the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. I make mistakes, and you make mistakes. It's not Islam anyway.
Second, my first comment came to clarify something that has been rumored about. Then some unkind comments started to try to talk to me and pretend that they know everything about my own religion though some of them stated that they know nothing!
Third, it feels like you either do not read what I say, or do not understand it.
I've been repeating myself many times.

They still deserve condemnation, especially by those of the same faith.

I agreed with it from the very beginning. (Just read!)

So, what do you believe actually happened?

I said, and I repeat, it was a plot. It's not what we're mainly discussing anyway.

So, you do not believe in Adam and Eve?

I believe, and I also believe there was Satan to seduce them by promising them.

Saying there are real instances is worthless.

I did say that people are not angels who do not make mistakes. Islam is not magic. Islam teaches you, and you should think, decide and follow.

Anubis the dog-headed Egyptian God

In fact, he is not God. I don't believe non-divine religions. Divine religions guide to worship God, not creatures. So if you say "creature" then you have to bear in mind that he is not God. How can God, the creator of the whole universe, be created or related to a nation or country??
Let's think about it for a minute. If God was a creature, then He would have desires! And if one of His desires was opposed by some condition He'd be "angry", and if He got "angry" he'd make our lives hell because the God, the Controller and Sovereign, would be "angry", so how do you expect life to be then? Also, if He is a creature, then he will die because He was born!! Who will Maintain the universe then? Illogical.

3)....

Although I did not try to offend you, you'll still say it just because you don't know what is tolerance simply because you weren't taught to practice it. This might be an offense, but not as much as you've been committing against me and my religion.
Your comment is obviously aggressive and has nothing to do with manners because you're building your proofs on nothing, and stating irrelevant sentences, and trying to put them in the wrong context.

Defending themselves from what?

I ALSO SAID that the law of the country defines when a citizen is allowed to kill and when they're not, so please do NOT repeat the questions.
By the way, I don't know where you learned all these cases. Do you allow yourself to kill under the circumstances you've mentioned?
Also, some of the circumstances you've mentioned do really exist, yet people are still trying to suppress their own feelings in order to prevent harm. However, some countries still savage despite the advance they've made in technology.

If person X kills someone protecting a woman/child but enjoys the thrill of it are they innocent?

X here is the Israeli government and the other "one" or maybe people is the Palestinian.
It's clearly evident that not the Israeli government that is innocent!

If person Y kills someone when they were drinking drunk are they innocent?

First, drinking whine is not allowed in Islam for many reasons, one of which is this one you've mentioned. Second, naturally, Islam punishes (twice) those who drink and kill because they violate law twice. And it's unlike many laws around the world which commute punishments under such reasons.

If person Z works for an organization that is buying up all the water in your town so that the villagers are going hungry/thirsty are they innocent? What if person Z is the boss and was the one who made the decision to buy the water?

I don't know what you're going for, and I'm not here to teach you what the word innocent means.

This is a clear reference to the myth that 4000 Jews on 9/11 got a tipoff that it was coming

I stated that it is not my opinion. I said Why is it said.. bla bla bla.
You simply answered my question and I did not say that YOU ARE WRONG!
So why to charge me again with such things?

Thrilled to hear it.

"I think you should decide whether you want to be taken seriously or not."

Seems clear enough to me, but you're asking the wrong guy.

I said that because I told you about it and still you throw such descriptions at Islam.

Again, you need to be talking to the guys who are supposedly misinterpreting it.

Again, they cannot misinterpret it because simply they're not religious!

But the whole point is that some people in your faith are interpreting it (according to you) incorrectly and doing some pretty vile stuff with it and they've read it cover to cover.

I didn't say there are some people interpreting these verses incorrectly. And how do you know they've read it from cover to cover? Even if they did, it is not necessary that they'll be scientists because almost all many Muslims (who are not scholars) around the world read the Qur'an at least once annually from cover to cover, especially in Ramaddan. Islamic religion has many branches of sciences to be taught.

They've all told me as well not to judge all or most Muslims by al Qaeda. Fair enough. I won't and I don't.

Actually, for me, I don't care. It depends on whether you're reasonable and moral or not.

Face it. They were religious.

When I tell you that Islam despises these deeds many times, please don't repeat yourself saying "They were religious."
If I claimed that I'm trustworthy, would you believe me like that and trust me?
Again, those who claim they're Muslims and kill innocent people have nothing to do with Islam.
Before the Prophet Muhammad started to send the Muslim army in order to free people from the immoral criminals who were fighting against and torturing the believers, He ordered them NOT to cut trees, and not to kill babies, women or old men, and not to terrify citizens, and to keep worshipers making prayers in their hermitages (who were non-Muslims), and many other moral orders. That's Islam-- even in wars treats people morally. There are also laws for how to treat the prisoners of wars.
One time, the Prophet Muhammad agreed with the prisoners of wars that He would release them if each one of them taught 10 illiterate children. And that was what happened.
There were uncountable deeds done by the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, which prove Islam is not at all like what some of the mass media is trying to claim is.

Let's hope you and the other Muslims are right and it did not.

Still you don't trust all of this, even though you know nothing about Islam!!
Again, actually, I don't care whether you'll be convinced or not. However, you'll realize some day when Islam spreads around the world (more than it's spreading now), you'll realize that what I'm telling you is the truth, and I hope you'll realize it before you die so that you may be able to change your life and "win" in the Judgment Day. I'm saying this just to remind you when we meet in the afterlife that I've told you, so if you listen you'll be happy, otherwise God knows how to judge you and me, and I have nothing to do with it. I'm only telling you the truth. Since God has granted you a mind to think, then you should also use it in searching of the truth about God.

Thank you.

[Hani1991]

One more thing-- If you have any questions or arguments about Islam, you can refer to the following website:
http://www.elnaggarzr.com/en/index.php
It's a Muslim scientist's website that talks about Islam, and gives scientific proofs from the universe that God exists, and the Qur'an is the word of God.
I won't be able to discuss everything with you anymore because I have to study and work. :)
Please let's put aside our differences and let's not dislike each other due to them.

Thank You

[sergent]

By the way, since most of the politicians of the world are atheists, then tell me who is making wars and destroying the world today? Who is sending soldiers to many countries claiming that those countries have a WMD, then they "discover" they are wrong? Who is greedy now? Again, I'm not accusing all the atheist of being so. You should also refrain from accusing the religious of being terrorists.

Not really. George W. Bush and Barack Obama are religious. Republicans are the once who support sending soldiers to other countries. And as we all know it Republicans are mostly believe in god.

1: The Qur'an never commands citizens to kill, and can't be interpreted like that. (#3)

Yes it can. And it is being interpreted like that by some people.

2: For any Muslim, it's not God's will.
3: For all the Muslims, this is a crime.

Speak for yourself, not for all Muslims.

6: Again, God does not reward terrorists! How could you even imagine this??
We did not imagine that. The people who imagine that are terrorists. Actually atheists know he does not reward terrorism, because we know he does not exist :D

Those who have done this might have not even read any single word from the Qur'an!!

I like how you say "might have not even read it". Thats what you think, and in no way backed up by facts. They MAY have read more Koran then the scholars you were talking about.

Besides, the divine religions are those sent by God, not invented by humans because not all the religions made by humans are peaceful as you might know.

Well, because God was invented by humans, all divine religions are just plot's of human imagination. And the most violent religions are the once you consider divine. For example, you probably do not consider Hinduism a divine religion, but it is one of the least violent once there is.

Muslims, especially those living in the Arab countries, have not yet been cleansed of the poisons of the previous colonialism and the currently applied neocolonialism

And to clean the "poison", why not kill all the white-infidels? That sounds like a good idea, I bet God will reward you in heavan for that.

For me, al Qa'edah is an American organized group of people who were put in some places in order for some U.S politicians to send the army there under the U.N laws or whatever

Wow, you just made a lot of enemies by saying that.

Besides, how could anyone imagine that God may put evil in anybody's babies? Babies are too innocent to hold evil in their hearts.
I do not imagine that god will put evil in babies, because I know god does not exist. By saying that you just show that you have no expirience with kids. They are born really selfish, taking toys from other babies, wanting the biggest piece of pie etc,. I have a brother and I know that. When babies are born, all they care about is themselves and getting food.

Let's think about it for a minute. If God was a creature, then He would have desires! And if one of His desires was opposed by some condition He'd be "angry", and if He got "angry" he'd make our lives hell because the God, the Controller and Sovereign, would be "angry", so how do you expect life to be then? Also, if He is a creature, then he will die because He was born!! Who will Maintain the universe then? Illogical.

The idea of god is illogic. If he does not have desires, it means he does not want us to be "good", therefore he will not make hell.

This might be an offense, but not as much as you've been committing against me and my religion.
And your friend said, WE are easily offended. Well, thats what you should have expeted, when talking on a religious thread.

Your comment is obviously aggressive and has nothing to do with manners because you're building your proofs on nothing, and stating irrelevant sentences, and trying to put them in the wrong context.

We can say the same thing about you.

X here is the Israeli government and the other "one" or maybe people is the Palestinian.
It's clearly evident that not the Israeli government that is innocent!

Your anti-semitism again.

Again, they cannot misinterpret it because simply they're not religious!

Who declared them not-religious? You? What gives you right to say they are not religious? They probably say the same thing about you!

There were uncountable deeds done by the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, which prove Islam is not at all like what some of the mass media is trying to claim is.

Well, Prophet Muhammad lived how many years ago? All religions say good things but in practice they may prove otherwise. I do not say that Islam right now is bad. But they fact that terrorists call themselves Muslim doesn't change no matter what Prophet Muhammad has done.

However, you'll realize some day when Islam spreads around the world

Yes, and guess what would be a perfect way to spread it? By killing some Americans and Europeans!

Since God has granted you a mind to think, then you should also use it in searching of the truth about God.

You see, for an atheist, this is not offending, but when an atheist says god does not exist all the believers get offeneded.

I won't be able to discuss everything with you anymore because I have to study and work.
Please let's put aside our differences and let's not dislike each other due to them.

Yes, and I ask Admins to close this thread again. I already asked them before, but they did not close it, and people's feelings were hurt!

[crunchie]

A plot by whom?

[sergent]

What are you talking about, crunchie?

[crunchie]

Hani believes that the hijacking was a plot.

>>>I said, and I repeat, it was a plot. It's not what we're mainly discussing anyway.<<<

[Hani1991]

;)
I couldn't see these kinds of replies and remain quiet without clarifying the truth

1: The Qur'an never commands citizens to kill, and can't be interpreted like that. (#3)

Yes it can. And it is being interpreted like that by some people.

Still you talk about something you know nothing about though I tried to make it clear to you.

Those who have done this might have not even read any single word from the Qur'an!!

I like how you say "might have not even read it". Thats what you think, and in no way backed up by facts. They MAY have read more Koran then the scholars you were talking about.

And I like the way you criticize. You say they MAY have read the Qur'an more than scholars, although you don't know either of the two sides-- You know neither the scholars nor the terrorists.

Well, because God was invented by humans, all divine religions are just plot's of human imagination. And the most violent religions are the once you consider divine.

The ones I mentioned are taught by their own men who say that violence is not acceptable. So since you are not one of those men who teach religion or even practice it, then you can't persuade anyone that you're right and scholars are wrong!

And to clean the "poison", why not kill all the white-infidels? That sounds like a good idea, I bet God will reward you in heavan for that.

Apparently, you don't want to understand! All what I've been talking about from the beginning till the end is about the fact that violence is rejected and despised in Islam. And please don't say again "those terrorists are Muslims" because I also said that nobody represents Islam but the Prophet of Islam because many people claiming to follow a religion may actually follow their inclination only and still pretend to be religious.
And by the way, for your information, Muslims aren't all Arabs (and Arabs aren't all Muslims). So, there are Muslim Europeans and Muslim Americans. And I said that there's no difference in Islam between the white and black. You might imagine that Arabs are all black as many people imagine, but that's not true. The Prophet Muhammad, for example, was white. Islam taught us not to consider this thing as a difference long time ago, not only recently as it happened to be in some countries today.
It seems to me that it's you (I mean thou not ye :)) actually bear Muslims malice (according to the way you're speaking about them.) Muslims have no malice to you or anybody else though.

The idea of god is illogic.

If you consider it illogical, then you will have ignored, by this, many scientific facts that prove that God exists, and I gave you a reference to a website created for this purpose.

If he does not have desires, it means he does not want us to be "good", therefore he will not make hell.

It's His will, not his desire, how to want us to be. I meant by "desire" the worldly desires that humans have. God is not a human at all and is not similar to humans as well.

X here is the Israeli government and the other "one" or maybe people is the Palestinian.
It's clearly evident that not the Israeli government that is innocent!

Your anti-semitism again.

I might consider your comment to be anti-Semitism too. Saying this, you're accusing Jews of supporting Israel. Maybe you don't realize what I've already stated, that many Jews around the world do not respect Israeli deeds. So, is this statement also considered to carry anti-Semitism? And by the way, Israeli's citizens and politicians are not only Jewish. You should know what you're talking about. Israel stands for itself, not for any religion. Many Jews (not only non-Jews) around the world stage protests against the crimes that the Israeli government commit against the Palestinians. Even the Jewish Palestinians are treated inhumanely, which is one of many facts that prove that Israel is not as it claims to be.

Who declared them not-religious? You?

No, their own religion did that clearly. They may claim they're Muslims, but such practices are not religious at all.

Well, Prophet Muhammad lived how many years ago? All religions say good things but in practice they may prove otherwise.

Well, now you're saying that more than 1.2 billion people around the world are liars! They say something but do something else!! This way, you're judging all these people by simply sitting behind your computer and letting your fingers type whatever comes to your mind.

I do not say that Islam right now is bad.

Well, you HAVE explicitly said it by saying "All religions say good things but in practice they may prove otherwise."

But they fact that terrorists call themselves Muslim doesn't change no matter what Prophet Muhammad has done.

Of course, and I'm not trying to change it! I'm trying to clarify that THEY call themselves Muslims, just as you said.

Yes, and guess what would be a perfect way to spread it? By killing some Americans and Europeans!

Again, you come back to the phobia of killing! If they agreed to kill, they would have started long time ago!! Do not try to show YOUR violent character by repeating the idea of killing! I said that Muslims did live with many non-Muslims peacefully with no harm.
One of the Muslim caliphates, Umar Ibn al-Khattab, punished one of the Muslim rulers and his son because his son punched a Christian man for beating him in a race. The caliphate ordered the Christian to punch the son of the ruler exactly as he punched him, and said "How do you enslave people after they were born free?!!"
Also, read about Indonesia and see how they became Muslims.

Since God has granted you a mind to think, then you should also use it in searching of the truth about God.

You see, for an atheist, this is not offending,

Why do you consider it offending? I meant no offence with it. I'm only stating facts! Do you get offended at hearing facts?

but when an atheist says god does not exist all the believers get offeneded.

I'm quite sure you haven't read my reply that says that I don't get offended when I hear an atheist say "there's no god." I also said that I don't even care because it's your belief not mine.

[crunchie]

God is not a human at all and is not similar to humans as well.

So, God did not create us in His image?

[Hani1991]

So, God did not create us in His image?

With all respect, no. If He was similar to us, then someone might say "it's not fair for Him to be our God since He is similar to us."
BTW, you've quoted me as putting the emoticon beside this sentence though I haven't done so. It can change the meaning.

[Agilemind]

"I also said that nobody represents Islam but the Prophet of Islam because many people claiming to follow a religion may actually follow their inclination only and still pretend to be religious"

So you do not represent Islam so how do you know you're not pretending to be religious?
If one person who claims to be religious (you) can state as fact that some other person who also claims to be religious (9/11 hijackers) is pretending to be religious, what is to stop them from stating as fact that you are pretending to be religious?
How do we know which person claiming to understand the Koran or be a religious scholar actually is one?

Also what makes a religion divine? is Buddhism divine? is Quakerism divine? is Scientology divine? are the countless religions practiced by native peoples in the Americas and Pacific islands divine? is Mormonism divine?

How do you know there is only one God? How do you know the Big Three religions are worshiping the same God? If God has no desires then he doesn't want us to worship or believe in him so why does it matter if a religion/philosophy is divine or not if it makes someone be a better person?

[Hani1991]

"I also said that nobody represents Islam but the Prophet of Islam because many people claiming to follow a religion may actually follow their inclination only and still pretend to be religious"

So you do not represent Islam so how do you know you're not pretending to be religious?

Since I quoted a very clear verse from the Holy Qur'an, then it means that this is what Islam stands for. Just think about it.
Also, let's think that Islam supports violence, what would have happened??
1. The first people to believe the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, wouldn't have believed him because Islam had supported violence against them since they had been disbelievers.
Above all, Muhammad wouldn't have summoned disbelievers to believe.
2. If the believers agreed to accept violence and agreed to be the followers of violence, then the Arab Peninsula wouldn't have even dreamed in any kind of stability because it used to witness chaos and wars every now and then.
3. No Christians or Jews or any non-Muslims would live in the Muslim countries because Muslims would have killed them or, at least, banished them.
4. The churches and synagogues built in the Muslim countries would have been destroyed. However, there are, up until now, many ancient places of worship across the Muslim countries.
5. I wouldn't have cared to discuss this with you because I would have considered you my enemy and I would only swear at you and say that I wouldn't talk to you because you're not a Muslim.
Since all of these and many other rumours about Islam are false, as you might perceive, then this is entirely evidence that Islam is a peaceful and anti-terrorism religion.

Before Islam, the Arab tribes used to make wars between each other every now and then. They used to hold fanatic attitudes. They used to make wars for money, food, etc.
Many of them would kill his newborn daughter because they would feel ashamed at having daughters. They would enslave the black people and buy them and sell them. They used to not care about anything but money, food, trade, women, etc.
However, when God sent the Prophet Muhammad, all of this was despised, and people started to recognize what they're doing. This led to building the Islamic country that has the achieved many great advance in science and manners.
Now after all this discussion, I think I will still find people who will say one of the following even though I did already reply to them, so I will re-reply to them:
1. Many terrorists say that they're religious or Muslims.
I did say that this is what they claim, so it doesn't necessarily mean that it's true.

2. How do we know that you're right and those claiming they're Muslims are wrong?
I quoted a very clear verse from the Holy Qur'an that needs no elaboration. I also discussed how to know whether Islam teaches violence or not in a logical way in this reply.

Many questions and arguments concerning Islam can be answered on the website I've provided you with, which is:
http://www.elnaggarzr.com/en/
It is a sciences professor's website. You can ask him questions about Islam if you're seeking for the truth. Give yourself a chance to know the truth..

[sergent]

And I like the way you criticize. You say they MAY have read the Qur'an more than scholars, although you don't know either of the two sides-- You know neither the scholars nor the terrorists.

Well, what gives you right to say you are an all-knowing person?

So since you are not one of those men who teach religion or even practice it, then you can't persuade anyone that you're right and scholars are wrong!

Again, you are saying that people who practice, or teach religion are better then the once who do not. You have no right to do that, and it is incorrect. I can say the same thing about you. Your express your opinions, not backed up by any facts.

And by the way, for your information, Muslims aren't all Arabs (and Arabs aren't all Muslims)

Yes, but mostly religion is passed down from parents to there children. Babies are forced to practice the same religion as there parents did, before they can decide what religion they want to choose. This is another aspect of religions I don't like.

If you consider it illogical, then you will have ignored, by this, many scientific facts that prove that God exists, and I gave you a reference to a website created for this purpose.

If you consider religion logical, you ignore many scientific facts that prove God does not exist. Since no one can exhaustively examine every place in the universe, no one can conclusively establish the exististence/not-existence of God.

I might consider your comment to be anti-Semitism too. Saying this, you're accusing Jews of supporting Israel. Maybe you don't realize what I've already stated, that many Jews around the world do not respect Israeli deeds. So, is this statement also considered to carry anti-Semitism? And by the way, Israeli's citizens and politicians are not only Jewish. You should know what you're talking about. Israel stands for itself, not for any religion. Many Jews (not only non-Jews) around the world stage protests against the crimes that the Israeli government commit against the Palestinians. Even the Jewish Palestinians are treated inhumanely, which is one of many facts that prove that Israel is not as it claims to be.

It DOES represent Majority of Jewish population. All countries commit crimes, and Israeli's crimes are far less then majority of other countries. It all started after Arabs invaded Israel, when it was created. You said violence is not tolerated in Islam, expect in self-defence, but you still did not concusively describe what it means. AND I am part-Jewish, and I am not going to tolerate, you racist remarks and myth's about 9/11.

No, their own religion did that clearly. They may claim they're Muslims, but such practices are not religious at all.

Who declared there practices not religious, you?

This way, you're judging all these people by simply sitting behind your computer and letting your fingers type whatever comes to your mind.

You are doing the same thing. It is the nature of humans-- selfish, lieyng creatures, but to survive we have to cooperate and think of others. This is still selfish. Tell me a better way to judge humanity?

Well, you HAVE explicitly said it by saying "All religions say good things but in practice they may prove otherwise."

The keyword here is MAY.

One of the Muslim caliphates, Umar Ibn al-Khattab, punished one of the Muslim rulers and his son because his son punched a Christian man for beating him in a race. The caliphate ordered the Christian to punch the son of the ruler exactly as he punched him, and said "How do you enslave people after they were born free?!!"
Also, read about Indonesia and see how they became Muslims.

Cool, one instance in many. I can find a lot of good single deeds that Nazis did. But in general there rule did not bring to anything good. There is many Muslims, and Umar Ibn al- Khattab is just one of them.

Why do you consider it offending? I meant no offence with it. I'm only stating facts! Do you get offended at hearing facts?

You get offended at hearing facts. god (notice g not capitalized), did not create me, nor anyone else. I got my brain from evolution, and I don't need "gods" help in anything. I said it is not offensive, but it is rather annoying to hear religious people talk.

1. The first people to believe in Islam wouldn't have believed in it because Islam had supported violence against them since they were disbelievers before.

It worked for the Christianity. They forced people to belive what they believed so they slowly got converted to Christianity.

3. No Christians or Jews or any non-Muslims would live in the Muslim countries because they would have been killed by Muslims.

It depends how much they agree with killing. There is many different Muslims, so all of them would agree more or less on killing "infidels". Right now even if they did believe it, they would not be able to do it-- face it. We live in modern world, and the rulers of the modern world is US and Europe. And I don't think it would be beneficial for Islam to try to kill all the "infidels".