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So you can very much guess the power which goes along with the name...

Sure, but most of those things can be developed in weaker languages too. The language used to make something doesn't prove that it's powerful, it just proves that someone thought it was the best language to do the job. :)

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Sure, but most of those things can be developed in weaker languages too. The language used to make something doesn't prove that it's powerful, it just proves that someone thought it was the best language to do the job. :)

Sure why not, but I really would like to see Python the way it is now, if developed in some other weak language. And also thinking that two great people (Mr. Larry Wall and Mr. Guido ) thought C would be the best language for their purposes doesn't surprise me. :D

I could do the same in assembly, wow assembly look how powerful it is!

No use of assembly when C can do almost the same kind of job (performance point of view, being the second most closest to the hardware after Assembly) and that too being less err...cryptic. ;)

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Sure why not, but I really would like to see Python the way it is now, if developed in some other weak language. And also thinking that two great people (Mr. Larry Wall and Mr. Guido ) thought C would be the best language for their purposes doesn't surprise me. :D

As long as the weaker language is capable of interfacing with the OS, the only problems are how fast the result is and how long it takes to develop. I'm not saying that C isn't the right choice, I'm just saying that using that as an example of C's power doesn't really say much for a language interpreter that primarily does text processing and can defer to other tools for the real work.

If you said that that most modern software is written in C/C++ then that's a good example because it shows how C/C++ can run the gauntlet in a bunch of different areas and developers keep choosing it because it does a good job. :)

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Yes c is powerful, most 3d graphics programmes are written in c.

But the same can be said if it was also written in assembly, or god forbid even on a binary level.

So it depends what you mean by powerful. Just because c happens to be slightly easier to understand than assembly has nothing, in my opinion, to do with power.

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I could do the same in assembly, wow assembly look how powerful it is!

If you had used assembly language you would now be 10% done!

0

If you said that that most modern software is written in C/C++ then that's a good example because it shows how C/C++ can run the gauntlet in a bunch of different areas and developers keep choosing it because it does a good job. :)

I hope you realize that a langauge doesn't have to follow the *fast* paradigm to be chosen by developers as a language of choice and be used in different areas.

Would you associate the word *fast* with Java when compared to C ? I guess no. But still it is now one of the hottest lanagues out there with a lot of softwares developed under its belt.

Would you associate the word power with .NET framework as compared to C? But still given the kind of abstractions it offers along with the extra flexibility in developing Enterprise level solutions, it has become the language of choice for many developers.

Nowadays langauges are chosen not based no their power (atleast not only power as parameter), but based on the development cycle associated with it.

BTW power in my above post means being fast so don't mistake it for the lanauge capabilities for Developing and Deploying Enterprise Level Applications. ;)

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I hope you realize that a langauge doesn't have to follow the *fast* paradigm to be chosen by developers as a language of choice and be used in different areas.

Sure. We were talking about power, not just speed. Power can be a lot of things and a collection of a lot of things.

Would you associate the word power with .NET framework as compared to C? But still given the kind of abstractions it offers along with the extra flexibility in developing Enterprise level solutions, it has become the language of choice for many developers.

I wouldn't try to compare a framework with a programming language. ;)

Nowadays langauges are chosen not based no their power (atleast not only power as parameter), but based on the development cycle associated with it.

That's included in power. Power includes lots of stuff like speed, flexibility, memory footprint, ease of production, and ease of maintenance. That's why a good example shows a language being used all over the place. It shows that the language is efficient enough and easy enough to develop in to be practical for more than just niche areas.

BTW power in my above post means being fast so don't mistake it for the lanauge capabilities for Developing and Deploying Enterprise Level Applications. ;)

You were trying to trick me, weren't you? ;)

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I wouldn't try to compare a framework with a programming language. ;)

I meant each and every language included like C#, VB .NET etc...:D

You were trying to trick me, weren't you? ;)

I like smart people, so good to discuss things with them...and not to forget trick them...:mrgreen:

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So it depends what you mean by powerful. Just because c happens to be slightly easier to understand than assembly has nothing, in my opinion, to do with power.

I have to strongly disagree there. For the same reason that software applications are always judged based on their abilities to make hard stuff easier. For example, Adobe Photoshop is classed as a powerful application, because of the many, many ways its able to manipulate images. But at their core, images are just a bunch of pixels with different colour values. By your example, the free 'paintbrush' utility which comes with Windows is just as powerful as Adobe Photoshop.

In the same vein a language is generally classed as more-or-less powerful based on the different paradigms, abstractions, library features, etc that it has available to support developers along their way in creating software suitable to the task in less time (Taking many different factors into account, like those listed by S-O-S), rather than whether its capable of producing the perfect-world, fastest-running, and most highly-optimised application regardless of the number of extra man-hours it takes to do.

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hello world,

it seems that i´m lost in the wrong forum, but i could recommend everyone to go to JAVA immediately.

I´m in the programming business since 1969 and learned the trade with ALGOL/60, the mother of all algorithmic languages.
I´m using JAVA since 2003 and find it a relief after a short flirtation with C.
I don´t know C++, but JAVA is said to be built on it´s fundamentals.
There is a lot of documentation, forums etc, and SUN, the company that makes JAVA, is very user friendly, delivers everything for free AND has a pleasant antagony to Bill Gates & friends.

An advice for a real newbie: buy the cheapest book on JAVA you can get and start from there.

Get a life...get Java.

peter bondam

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hello world

Hi! :)

I´m in the programming business since 1969 and learned the trade with ALGOL/60, the mother of all algorithmic languages.
I´m using JAVA since 2003 and find it a relief after a short flirtation with C.

I'm curious. You've been programming since 1969 and had a short flirtation with C. I understand short as probably 5 years or less. You've been using Java since 2003, so what were you using for the rest of the time? ALGOL60? :eek:

I don´t know C++, but JAVA is said to be built on it´s fundamentals.
There is a lot of documentation, forums etc, and SUN, the company that makes JAVA, is very user friendly, delivers everything for free AND has a pleasant antagony to Bill Gates & friends.

I can't reply to this without seeming inflammatory. I'm sorry.

I see a few things wrong with your logic if you're trying to convince people to use Java instead of C++.

  1. Most mainstream languages have a C ancestry. Being based on C++ isn't a selling point, it's a marketing ploy. ;)
  2. C++ has plenty of documentation and a huge community as well. If you know where to look, you can find information on anything about C++, just like Java.
  3. I heard that Sun was just as vicious in business as Microsoft. ;) The only difference is that Sun has decided to cash in on the open source wave rather than fight against it.
  4. C++ is completely free. Even more so than Java, in fact, because you're not forced into the JVM platform.
  5. C++ has nothing to do with Microsoft. I don't see how antagony to Bill Gates and friends implies that Java is a better choice than C++.

Get a life...get Java.

I tried Java. I even got the lapel pin. I didn't have any more of a life then than I do now. ;)

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I wouldn't even consider java for the programs I write -- too damned slow. To me java is only useful in web development and there are probably 10 times more development environments than that. So "use only java" is just not practical or even desireable.

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it seems that i´m lost in the wrong forum, but i could recommend everyone to go to JAVA immediately.

Although you can write just about anything with Java, that doesn't mean you should. Just like using the right tools for a job, there is no end-all programming language or tool to use. The key is to know which is the best to use. Even C++, the superset of C is not better, it's different. Some projects may be better in C++, some are better in C. Which is why this discussion still exists.

An advice for a real newbie: buy the cheapest book on JAVA you can get and start from there.

I don't know about you... but I sure wouldn't just walk into a bookstore and blow 20 or 30 dollars on a cheap Java book. You're better off buying a good book, even if it costs a bit more than other books.

Get a life...get Java.

Alright, you try to write a 3D first person shooter in Java and let me know how it goes. ;)

To me java is only useful in web development and there are probably 10 times more development environments than that. So "use only java" is just not practical or even desireable.

Agreed - although for some tasks, Java is not far behind good C++ compilers (or sometimes even ahead), a fairly impressive feat for Sun, considering that it's all interpreted bytecode.

http://kano.net/javabench/
http://mathsrv.ku-eichstaett.de/MGF/homes/grothmann/java/bench/Bench.html
http://www.idiom.com/~zilla/Computer/javaCbenchmark.html

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I always think that a programmer should know what's under the hood. I think that starting with Assembly and then moving up is something that new programmers should always do. It means that you have a good grasp as to what is going on and can optimize your code by getting closer to the CPU. I think that there are too many drag 'n drop or copy 'n paste programmers out there which leads to unstable applications. And you have HLA or High-Level Assembler languages that have made it much easier to program in Assembly.

It's an unpopular opinion but I'm glad I took the time years ago to go through x86 and 6800 assembler classes (these were geared for embedded devices) as it gave me a very good understanding of what is going on in the CPU and how the memory is being organized and utilized. It really gives you ultimate control over your system as well.

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I always think that a programmer should know what's under the hood. I think that starting with Assembly and then moving up is something that new programmers should always do. It means that you have a good grasp as to what is going on and can optimize your code by getting closer to the CPU.

I disagree with the timeframe, but not the concept. Start with a higher level language like C/C++. Once you get a good grasp of programming concepts, then take assembler to see what's under the hood. Trying to learn the terse programming of assembler while trying to understand the concepts of programming in general is just too much IMO.

It's an unpopular opinion but I'm glad I took the time years ago to go through x86 and 6800 assembler classes (these were geared for embedded devices) as it gave me a very good understanding of what is going on in the CPU and how the memory is being organized and utilized. It really gives you ultimate control over your system as well.

I myself know PDP-10 and PDP-11 assembler as well as 80xxx, and have a basic understanding of a couple more, so I know where you are coming from. I do agree that knowing assembler is a great idea. It just shouldn't be the first language.

Votes + Comments
Very well put. - joeprogrammer
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I disagree with the timeframe, but not the concept. Start with a higher level language like C/C++. Once you get a good grasp of programming concepts, then take assembler to see what's under the hood. Trying to learn the terse programming of assembler while trying to understand the concepts of programming in general is just too much IMO.

I agree with that. Another poind i'd like to add is that alot of people only pick up a programming language as a passing interest, or maybe study it as part of a non-technical course. IMHO, there'd be little point in working at such a low level for someone whose main focus is elsewhere (such as website design, or business-IT)

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I think that there are too many drag 'n drop or copy 'n paste programmers out there which leads to unstable applications.

Performance never has been a problem when working with Drag and Drop type of RAD languages or tools (VB, Realbasic). All the optimization related things are taken care by the interpreter or the compiler which comes along with it.

Also there are Project Managers, Team leaders etc to take care of such unstability. Either this or I am missing your point ?

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Thats because when "Hello word" is printed on a screen program ends and cmd clooses...

If you are using Dev C++ which is what i have been using, i am a beginner too, i ran into the same problem.

Here is the line of code that you need in order to keep the cmd window open and you can see your work.
Place this command at the bottom of your code, right above the return command.
___________________
system("PAUSE");
___________________

So for example

//Example
#include <iostream>
int main()
{ //bla bla program code

system("PAUSE");
return 0; // or something else
}

This will solve your problem.

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