Always fighting! :rolleyes: *Sob* Let's all get along, it might be dieing but alot of people still love it so why would they leave it, that's all, just forget everone elses opinion and just do what you want.
;) :-| :confused: [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/Mr.PinkBunny/happybunny02.gif[/IMG]
Every language has its purpose. One language CANNOT do it all (cept asm) :D
Well, I'm not so sure about every language having a purpose (unless you define annoying users as a purpose ;) ).
Well, I'm not so sure about every language having a purpose (unless you define annoying users as a purpose ;) ).
I don't think Java is annoying it's users that badly.
I was thinking of PHP ;)
Hi everyone,
Here we go again
Narue you seem to be nothing but a java sceptic and keep on calling me a troll.
Narue you said "It's impossible to write an operating system completely in Java. If you knew half of what you pretend to then you would realize this."
I have said this probably a dozen times to you that only the overlying gui on top of the kernel of an os can be written in java.
And most people usually write the kernel in asm, i have even seen one in pascal but that's quite rare, or c++. People tend to avoid the kernel writing part using c++ because it is incredibally hard but it is possible.
Sometimes i tend to wonder Narue if you have any programming experience at all and that goes for you to 1o0oBhP.
Your Sincerely
Richard West
Hi everyone,
Here we go again
Narue you seem to be nothing but a java sceptic and keep on calling me a troll.
Narue you said "It's impossible to write an operating system completely in Java. If you knew half of what you pretend to then you would realize this."
I have said this probably a dozen times to you that only the overlying gui on top of the kernel of an os can be written in java.
And most people usually write the kernel in asm, i have even seen one in pascal but that's quite rare, or c++. People tend to avoid the kernel writing part using c++ because it is incredibally hard but it is possible.
Sometimes i tend to wonder Narue if you have any programming experience at all and that goes for you to 1o0oBhP.
Your Sincerely
Richard West
Okay, this post was needlessly stabby, if I may say so. If you've looked anywhere through the forum, you'd see that Narue and 1o0oBhP both know a thing or two about programming, not that they need any defense.
What about Linux, a *BSD or any major UNIX? They're done in a combination of C and ASM, if I'm not mistaken.
But, why would you have to start at the overlying GUI? I'm not incredibly up on Java, but couldn't you just as well do the predominance of the userspace in Java? I'd imagine that if you built the VM into the kernel (or the kernel was the VM), could you not do just about everything with it, aside from the kernel?
Unix is written for about 90% in C, the rest is a mix of ASM and mainly shellscripts.
As Alex says, you could create an OS in which the core consists of a JVM and the entire rest is in fact written in Java. You could even put that core into hardware and have the entire OS in Java.
Sun has done this as an experiment for embedded devices and it works (it just didn't sell, shame really).
It looks to me like the one lacking (realworld) experience is Richard...
While I don't always see eye to eye with Narue about everything I do recognise her as an experienced professional.
Hi everyone,
Jwenting you said "It looks to me like the one lacking (realworld)
experience is Richard"
Ouch man really ouch
Richard West
Hi everyone,
I read Narue's blog dated 10-31-2004 and this is a snippet of it
"I'm a card carrying Java hater. Many times I have been approached by advocates of the devil's latest spawn (that would be Java if you weren't paying attention) demanding to know why I loath the language that they hold so dear. As many times as I have been approached, I've put the fool in his place by quoting from a long and detailed list of flaws in the design and implementation of Java."
After reading Narue's blog i ran for the hills. Oh my god i didn't even knew such people existed this world.
Here is the link to Narue's blog
http://www.daniweb.com/blogs/blog17893.html
Now i know why Narue refused to back down even if Narue's arguments were baseless, i was right Narue was a hater, a Java Hater - god help us all
Someone please comment
Yours Sincerely
Richard West
No offense, but me not finding java anywhere as useful as C++ has NOTHING to do with my programming ability. Maybe I have phrased things wrong but java does exist and is popular but I am happy to say it WONT kill c++; which is what you seem to imply and what I am so happy to discuss. I have programmed a few games and a LOT of game and user utilities to aid the process and have found that Visual Basic and C++ To be my perfect combination. Also amongst other features, c++ allows me to write DLLs so that software components can be shared and I can code much faster (I do not know if java can do this, or any other form of software re-usability. just look at c++ class libraries and inheritance!)-> you could be right in that I need exposure to more java, (as having lost faith in it a while back im not really interested in it) but all in all what I have got is powerful and easy to use, something I have never seen from java. Would you be able to post some links to some information for the latest JAVA specs, then perhaps we will see if it can rival c++ or not.
>Now i know why Narue refused to back down even if Narue's arguments
>were baseless, i was right Narue was a hater, a Java Hater - god help us all
You have yet to prove my arguments baseless. God forbid we actually get into a debate on the actual merits and flaws of Java. Though I can imagine how it would go. I would go down my list of well thought out and rational reasons for hating Java and you would end up saying "Nuh uh!", with a link to some irrelevant article advocating Java.
>Oh my god i didn't even knew such people existed this world.
That's because your head is so far up your own ass you can't smell the bullshit.
To recap: I don't like Java. I don't like C++. I do like C. I like and dislike quite a few languages that you've probably never heard of because you can only seem to speak Java, but that's beside the point. I know these languages and I use them all on a regular basis whether I like them or not. Why? Because they're tools. They help me to do my job, which is to solve problems. When I'm doing my job, I don't have time for petty purist thoughts like which language will be the next BIG thing and which languages are on their way out. I use what works, if I find something that works better I use that. Nothing you say is going to change my behavior. If you don't like it, shut up and fume. As I said before, I have neither the time nor the inclination to suffer your idiocy.
hi everyone,
Narue i have only one thing to say to you
REPENT REPENT AND YOU SHALL BE REDEEMED
Yours Sincerely
Richard West
I just read through the last 5 pages of uber pr0gers, and you know what? I have absolutely no idea what your saying, as im a newbie in the world of programming, I'm still deciding what language to learn after YaBasic. However, I have come to one logical conclusion:
If it works, use it. And use whatever you feel is easier for you <3
Also amongst other features, c++ allows me to write DLLs so that software components can be shared and I can code much faster (I do not know if java can do this, or any other form of software re-usability. just look at c++ class libraries and inheritance!)-> you could be right in that I need exposure to more java, (as having lost faith in it a while back im not really interested in it) but all in all what I have got is powerful and easy to use, something I have never seen from java. Would you be able to post some links to some information for the latest JAVA specs, then perhaps we will see if it can rival c++ or not.
Java classes effectively work much like DLLs do in that you can hotplug them (often) into an application without needing to recompile the rest.
There are some products that will compile Java into platform native code, maybe these can produce DLLs as well, I can't say as I've never had a need to use one.
Java has as much (if not more) code reusability than does C++. The C++ class libraries are as nothing to the standard Java library in completeness and versatility.
Whether you find it easy to use is a personal preference and experience. Myself I find the Java standard library easier to use than the C++ one, but then I've far more exposure to it than I do to the C++ library.
The complete specs are always available from Sun for free, quite a difference from the C++ specs which are only available at a price from ANSI (and then you get only the core, the C++ "standard" library being compiler dependent.
Hi everyone,
cup of squirrel you said "I have absolutely no idea what your saying"
Well its only a piece of joke(only redeeming part) as Narue said that Java was the devil's language.
One more thing, i have not had much exposure to yabasic but a lot of people say its
good. I have a question for you about yabasic in that what are the type libraries available(if you can list some) and its portability.
Learning C/C++ is very good start and i think you made a good choice.
cup of squirrel you also said "And use whatever you feel is easier for you"
If you are writting programs for leisure then this is fine but when you start to do this as a living you have to think this as user's standpoint. For example if your program only has a Portrait print preview the user may want to add a Landscape print preview as a plugin. If you use C/C++ it will take you sometime to accomplish this(although it is possible) but if you use a versatile language say like pascal which versatility is already built into the language you can do this in a short time and even if you use Java you can include your plugin as a jar file thus making it as a package.
In the world of money you can't afford your competition to have his program to market in January and your program to hit the market in October. It just does not make economical sense.
Actually from what i read from your post you can try wxbasic. They have an enormous library.
Yours Sincerely
Richard West
"versatile" language like Pascal?
Don't make me laugh. Quite obviously you have no idea what you're talking about if you think C++ is not versatile.
If anything the main fault to be found in C++ is that it's TOO versatile, TOO flexible, and as a result there are no real standardised solutions for many problems, leading people to have to reinvent the wheel a lot.
But with a decent collection of libraries in your posession that gets reduced a lot, just as it is with other languages.
hi everyone,
jwenting you said "Don't make me laugh"
I am so glad i amuse you.
You do know i am talking about the free pascal compiler and not the old pascal versions that people usually use. Actually there are a few ide's that use this compiler one is bloodshed pascal ide and another is lezarus( lezarus is really famous as it is trying to emulate delphi).
And one more thing there are no standardised solutions for most pogramming languages that's why they call them computer languages( the English language you speak) and not api's(the alphabet set( a - z))
Example if i were to print the contents of a JTextPane i could use many ways
Here are a few
Using direct Views
Using indirect Views
Using Streams
and so on - You get the point
jwenting you said "Quite obviously you have no idea what you're talking about"
Maybe you're right or maybe you're wrong only the future holds the answer but let's hope you don't learn your mistakes the hard way
Yours Sincerely
Richard West
I wasn't claiming Pascal isn't versatile, but quite obviously you didn't understand that. What I was saying (and you seem to have either ignored or didn't understand) is that your claim that C++ isn't versatile is complete and utter nonsense.
I suggest you start reading and understanding what people say before you start ranting about their statements ;)
Yabasic is compiled for Linux and Windows, and sources are avaiable for both. Its a beginner language, nothing to get excited about =D
This has been a very entertaining discussion!
I love all the "Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about" comments.
I now understand why there is no peace in the Middle East. They are fighting over which compiler is better. Why, just yesterday someone strapped a Pascal compiler on his back and ran into a crowded C++-only internet cafe!
For my two cents worth, I always liked Snowbol; CatsPaw still has a version that works well. Awesome for parsing! Every line implicitly includes an IF/ELSE statement in it! Ahh, those were the days.
Meanwhile, MS is pushing it's 'managed' languages, mostly C# and VB, so that they can make use of .NET. Some segment of the programming population will go that way. Others will ride the Java train. Still others will use C/C++ stuff for some time. It sort of depends on which community you are in (in my opinion). ROM writers will use C or ASM, C++ is great for a large number of lower-level things. Java seems to run on everything, including cell phones. VB is great for IT departments throwing together a few screens quickly. C# is great for some kinds of web apps.
They can most all be used for just about anything if you want, but some are easier for some classes of tasks, and some fit the 'genre' of the task at hand. I am hard pressed to think of why you would even want to declare one language "the best" or "dead." It's sorta like asking which screwdriver is "the best" or declaring that "Phillips head screws are dead."
But don't listen to me, obviously I have no idea what I'm talking about.
:-)
Now, back to the flames....
Now, back to the flames....
If anything, let's not get back to the flames. Please keep things civil here, lest I be forced to close the thread.
i am a newbie in MFC
when i read this words,i don't what should i do
java, a new good language,but I no the basic of java
and i just can use c and c++,i don't want to spend more time on java
i am confusion now
who can tell me what should i do
study java or continue my MFC????????????????????
I don't want two kinds of result..........
An interesting thread. I really hate it that everyone is going for the jugular, hinders productivity somewhat. I too am considering directions to travel. Right now the only language I can write in is Pig Latin :). I was told to learn VB first, and then C++. The last time I even ventured into this realm was on the Amiga, years ago; and was so turned on by putting down just a little bit of code and a perfect circle was drawn. I've been diverted over time into publishing and graphics, but would like to pursue this once more. Constructive thoughts will be appreciated..I spy apparent talent hanging out here, even with the differences of opinion.
Thanks,
BuddyB
I want the languages we had before C took over.
Took over? Tbh, I always thought C/C++ were the big daddys of programming, but they're not. There are loads of decent programming languages out there, and like I said its all about which one you feel more comfortable with <3
>study java or continue my MFC????????????????????
Both. The more, the merrier.
>I was told to learn VB first, and then C++.
Learn whatever looks most interesting to you. If somebody tells you to learn a language and you hate it then you've just sold yourself short. VB is recommended because it's easy and powerful at the same time. C++ is recommended because it's incredibly flexible. Java is recommended because it's not as intense as C++. Here are a few of the languages that I've found interesting, at the very least:
C, C++, Java, C#, VB, Perl, Python, Forth
This might give you a start for research before you pick a language to focus on. Each of these is useful, popular, and different enough from any of the others to give you a new flavor of programming.
I never recommend C, C++, Java, or C# as a first language. They're meant to be used by real programmers solving real problems. As such, they're awful as a learning language, though Java and C# are better than C and C++. Python is easy to follow, and Forth is about as simple as programming gets, but Forth is harder to find good information on than Python. Perl is fun. Very fun. But unless you learn it the right way, you'll be confused (as you will with any language that can look like line noise without any effort).
My best suggestion is to get a list of programming languages and do research on them before picking one to learn. By research I mean learn a little bit and take them each for a test spin (just a little bit, play with each for a few days at the most). Not only will you gain valuable experience in multiple languages and methodologies, you'll also learn what your programming tastes are. Your own preference is the most important thing to consider when choosing your first language.
I liked Python as a TV show, but is there anybody out there that likes it as a language?
"C, C++, Java, C#, VB, Perl, Python, Forth"
None of those languages except Forth existed when I learned to program.
We had:
FORTRAN, COBOL, BASIC, PL-1, Pascal, ALGOL, LISP, and Scheme, among others.
I do not like languages like C which change the order of the operations you program in the interest of efficiency. Nobody can program in real time with those new languages.
"Nobody can program in real time with those new languages"
Except for C and careful use of C++, maybe, but you have other issues for real-time stuff as well. Like Windows and Linux getting in your way. So, as many have said here, the notion of a good or bad language depends greatly on your point of view.
As you say, even the palette for language choices may depend on your needs. Real time? ASM, carefully written C or C++, maybe one or two others? Like the simple BASIC used on the STAMP chip, where it is a BASIC that is practically macros for ASM.
Life was easier when you had to pick between COBOL and FORTRAN, as they tended to divide on use; COBOL for business apps (usually batch processing), FORTRAN for research, scientific stuff, etc.
I haven't heard much talk about LISP or PROLOG here, they were used for a certain class of applications, but you barely hear about them now.
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